Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

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Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by piston » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:17 am

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by piston » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:52 pm

Do I detect a lack of popularity for this thread? Thatcher was very divisive in the U.K. Her biographer attributes this fact to her combativity. She was a fighter! That cannot be denied. She fought dragons and Argentina. But combative, she was! Arnold S., eat your heart out!
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:25 pm

The Guardian

April 8, 2013

Privatising Margaret Thatcher's funeral would be a fitting tribute to her legacy

by Sunny Hundal [channeling Jonathan Swift--JB]

The Iron Lady herself would surely agree that poor taxpayers should not be further burdened in these times of austerity

An e-petition has called for Margaret Thatcher's funeral to be funded and managed by the private sector. Photograph: Geoff Caddick/EPA

Margaret Thatcher's close ideological ally Ronald Reagan famously said the 10 most dangerous words in the English language were: "Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

Neither Thatcher nor Reagan were enamoured with the state and its role in society. They wanted private companies to be able to reach into every part of our lives.[How refreshing to hear it put that way. JB] So why not extend this privatisation experiment into the after-life?

Now someone by the name of Scott Morgan has launched this e-petition:

"In keeping with the great lady's legacy, Margaret Thatcher's state funeral should be funded and managed by the private sector to offer the best value and choice for end users and other stakeholders. The undersigned believe that the legacy of the former PM deserves nothing less and that offering this unique opportunity is an ideal way to cut government expense and further prove the merits of liberalised economics Baroness Thatcher spearheaded."

This is a brilliant idea, and surely one even Thatcher will approve of. It can be a fitting tribute to her ideological legacy.

Let me be clear: it's isn't nice to wish death on most people, and I'm not doing that here for Thatcher. She deserves a degree of respect like other people, in my view, despite what she did as prime minister.

Surely the serious point behind this petition is to ask how far ideologues are willing go. Wouldn't Thatcher prefer the first privatised funeral instead of a state one? After all, why go out on a state subsidy?

Consider the endless possibilities, for die-hard Thatcherites, of privatising the event. I think we can agree it should be ticketed so it can turn a profit. Perhaps an IT company (let's call them Crapita for example), could sell tickets via the internet. You may have to wait a couple of months to get the system off the ground but at least it'll work … eventually. If it's anything like the privatisation of the railways, none of the funeral services would run on time and you'd end up with 500 people in a church meant for 200.

But there could be optional extras otherwise denied by the state. You could pay to have an opportunity to wail, as North Koreans seem to have perfected. Wailing while stabbing a picture of Arthur Scargill should obviously cost much more. Opportunities to sell Thatcher memorabilia (a picture of her with Pinochet, sir?) would be endless. It could even boost our sagging economy.

The television rights to the event should be auctioned off, perhaps for a private library dedicated to Thatcher (with John Maynard Keynes banned from the economics section of course).

Surely Thatcher herself would agree that poor taxpayers should not be further burdened in these times of austerity.

And, in the interests of balance, I think it's only right to say I'd be happy to repeat the call when the time comes for Tony Blair.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ute-legacy
Last edited by jbuck919 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:36 pm

It's hardly a Thread, just a single link, not even a comment from you, perhaps a little more information or an opinion might have got some responses...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:47 pm

jbuck919 wrote:The Guardian

April 8, 2013

Privatising Margaret Thatcher's funeral would be a fitting tribute to her legacy

The Iron Lady herself would surely agree that poor taxpayers should not be further burdened in these times of austerity

An e-petition has called for Margaret Thatcher's funeral to be funded and managed by the private sector. Photograph: Geoff Caddick/EPA

Margaret Thatcher's close ideological ally Ronald Reagan famously said the 10 most dangerous words in the English language were: "Hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help."

Neither Thatcher nor Reagan were enamoured with the state and its role in society. They wanted private companies to be able to reach into every part of our lives.[How refreshing to hear it put that way. JB] So why not extend this privatisation experiment into the after-life?

Now someone by the name of Scott Morgan has launched this e-petition:

"In keeping with the great lady's legacy, Margaret Thatcher's state funeral should be funded and managed by the private sector to offer the best value and choice for end users and other stakeholders. The undersigned believe that the legacy of the former PM deserves nothing less and that offering this unique opportunity is an ideal way to cut government expense and further prove the merits of liberalised economics Baroness Thatcher spearheaded."

This is a brilliant idea, and surely one even Thatcher will approve of. It can be a fitting tribute to her ideological legacy.

Let me be clear: it's isn't nice to wish death on most people, and I'm not doing that here for Thatcher. She deserves a degree of respect like other people, in my view, despite what she did as prime minister.

Surely the serious point behind this petition is to ask how far ideologues are willing go. Wouldn't Thatcher prefer the first privatised funeral instead of a state one? After all, why go out on a state subsidy?

Consider the endless possibilities, for die-hard Thatcherites, of privatising the event. I think we can agree it should be ticketed so it can turn a profit. Perhaps an IT company (let's call them Crapita for example), could sell tickets via the internet. You may have to wait a couple of months to get the system off the ground but at least it'll work … eventually. If it's anything like the privatisation of the railways, none of the funeral services would run on time and you'd end up with 500 people in a church meant for 200.

But there could be optional extras otherwise denied by the state. You could pay to have an opportunity to wail, as North Koreans seem to have perfected. Wailing while stabbing a picture of Arthur Scargill should obviously cost much more. Opportunities to sell Thatcher memorabilia (a picture of her with Pinochet, sir?) would be endless. It could even boost our sagging economy.

The television rights to the event should be auctioned off, perhaps for a private library dedicated to Thatcher (with John Maynard Keynes banned from the economics section of course).

Surely Thatcher herself would agree that poor taxpayers should not be further burdened in these times of austerity.

And, in the interests of balance, I think it's only right to say I'd be happy to repeat the call when the time comes for Tony Blair.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ute-legacy
This is old news, the original article appeared in December 2011 written by my friend Sunny Hundal, I can't believe the Guardian regurgitates its own articles...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... ute-legacy
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:51 pm

Chalkperson wrote:This is old news, the original article appeared in December 2011 written by my friend Sunny Hundal, I can't believe the Guardian regurgitates its own articles...
I only found it because you posted it on Facebook. I should have my hand slapped for changing the date, assuming it had to be today. Stick by your post, Chalkie, because you've given me exactly the appropriate commentary for which I myself lacked the words. :)

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:10 pm

Can you figure out how to put up the screen grab from my page where the BBC report says she died following a strike...I seriously doubt it was a typo, more likely a pleb making a pun.

Sh died in a suite in the Ritz Hotel, she deserved to die in a soon to be closed NHS Hospital like all the other pensioners whose lives she ruined.

There is dancing in the streets, there will be street parties to contrast to the totally farcical State Funeral, the last political figure to get one of those was Churchill, he won WW2 for us Brits, Thatcher destroyed the UK with her policies, the only once since Churchill in 1965 was the much beloved Queen Mother...but, you are not supposed to speak ill of the dead, so I won't tell you how I feel about this fantastic day in British History..
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:17 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:This is old news, the original article appeared in December 2011 written by my friend Sunny Hundal, I can't believe the Guardian regurgitates its own articles...
I only found it because you posted it on Facebook. I should have my hand slapped for changing the date, assuming it had to be today. Stick by your post, Chalkie, because you've given me exactly the appropriate commentary for which I myself lacked the words. :)
My Facebook post said it was from 2011, so did the link at the bottom of your post, don't mess with the news, the epetition failed, I would have loved to see Sponsored by Dow Chemicals, Coca Cola, and all the makers of Military Weapons written on the side of her coffin, she was to have been cremated, unfortunately she will be buried as Britain has no longer has any coal mines from which to get the coal to light the fire in the Crematorium...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:22 pm

Chalkperson wrote:Can you figure out how to put up the screen grab from my page where the BBC report says she died following a strike...I seriously doubt it was a typo, more likely a pleb making a pun.

Sh died in a suite in the Ritz Hotel, she deserved to die in a soon to be closed NHS Hospital like all the other pensioners whose lives she ruined.

There is dancing in the streets, there will be street parties to contrast to the totally farcical State Funeral, the last political figure to get one of those was Churchill, he won WW2 for us Brits, Thatcher destroyed the UK with her policies, the only once since Churchill in 1965 was the much beloved Queen Mother...but, you are not supposed to speak ill of the dead, so I won't tell you how I feel about this fantastic day in British History..
Suddenly I love our usually studiously apolitical Chalkie. :D

(Actually, the Guardian article also had a typo which I simply fixed. It really read, "They wanted private companies to be able to reach into every party of our lives." Which is also not bad for a Freudian slip, eh?)

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:33 pm

My other friend, a certain Mr Costello, rote a song about today, but he wrote it back in 1987, he and I left Thatchers Britain the following year, never to return to our homeland, unfortunately her successor (from the other Party) was Tony Blair possibly the only Prime Minister currently hated more than Thatcher.

TRAMP THE DIRT DOWN

I saw a newspaper picture from the political campaign
A woman was kissing a child, who was obviously in pain
She spills with compassion, as that young childs
Face in her hands she grips
Can you imagine all that greed and avarice
Coming down on that childs lips

Well I hope I don't die too soon
I pray the lord my soul to save
Oh I'll be a good boy, Im trying so hard to behave
Because there's one thing I know, I'd like to live
Long enough to savour
That's when they finally put you in the ground
Ill stand on your grave and tramp the dirt down

When england was the whore of the world
Margeret was her madam
And the future looked as bright and as clear as
The black tarmacadam
Well I hope that she sleeps well at night, isnt
Haunted by every tiny detail
Cos when she held that lovely face in her hands
All she thought of was betrayal

And now the cynical ones say that it all ends the same in the long run
Try telling that to the desperate father who just squeezed the life from his only son
And how it's only voices in your head and dreams you never dreamt
Try telling him the subtle difference between justice and contempt
Try telling me she isn't angry with this pitiful discontent
When they flaunt it in your face as you line up for punishment
And then expect you to say thank you straighten up, look proud and pleased
Because youve only got the symptoms, you haven't got the whole disease
Just like a schoolboy, whose heads like a tin-can
Filled up with dreams then poured down the drain
Try telling that to the boys on both sides, being blown to bits or beaten and maimed
Who takes all the glory and none of the shame

Well I hope you live long now, I pray the lord your soul to keep
I think I'll be going before we fold our arms and start to weep
I never thought for a moment that human life could be so cheap
Cos when they finally put you in the ground
They'll stand there laughing and tramp the dirt down

Yes, John, I'm 100% apolitical, they are all scumbags...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:38 pm

Elvis wrote another song about Thatcher, this one about the Falklands War, a war America pleaded with her not to start, just listen to the words...

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B6T9qp9XbRY
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:10 pm

AND...42 things you should know about Margaret Thatcher's Reign.

Thatchers record....

1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation.

However, I do applaud her fight as a woman to become an MP, her undying love for her husband and the fact she was our only Female Prime Minister...

About her Arms Dealer son, Mark. That's another issue altogether, best left for another day...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by John F » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:09 am

Since piston seems to be demanding replies to his bare post of a link to an obituary: from the point of view of classical music enthusiasts, Margaret Thatcher's signal "achievement" was deeply cutting the British Arts Council's funding and thereby "privatizing" and effectively diminishing financial support for such British institutions as the Royal Opera, the Royal Ballet, the Royal National Theatre, and the U.K.'s many fine orchestras including the Royal Philharmonic. The "Royal" moniker plus £2.15 will get you a caffe latte at a London Starbucks.

She also abolished the Greater London Council, leaving the U.K.'s and one of the world's great cities (and my own second favorite city in the world) without its own government or mayor. To an outsider like me, this looked like a purely political move against the then mayor of London, a Labourite sharply critical of Thatcher and her policies, and London paid dearly for her fit of pique. As soon as Labour came to power, it set about giving London back its own government, and the people of London elected the very same mayor who had lost his job to Thatcher's "reforms" 14 years before.

No doubt Chalkie will have something to say about this, whether or not he agrees.
John Francis

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by piston » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:27 am

I fail to see the difference between providing a link without any comment and copying an article, similarly without further comment. But I do appreciate your informed replies.
People will have polarized opinions because that's what Thatcher did to people --she polarized public opinion. The same outcome can be observed on the left when a national leader was no less combative than her. Bring Thatcher and Trudeau in the same arena and what do you get?:
Thatcher said to Trudeau: “Pierre, you’re being obnoxious. Stop acting like a naughty schoolboy.” Reagan went on: “I thought at one point Margaret was going to order Pierre to go stand in a corner.”

According to the book, Trudeau’s “outbursts” against the U.S. and British leaders “were to prove a regular item at the G7 meetings.”
By contrast, Thatcher argued with Mulroney over such matters as Commonwealth sanctions against South Africa's apartheid but they remained close friends. Mulroney and his family even gathered at Southampton, with the Reagan family and Thatcher's and he recalls fondly the good time they had together:
But he also recalled that, “apart from being a superb and strong leader, she was also in private a very charming and polite and respectful and enjoyable friend.”

The Mulroney, Thatcher and Reagan families often vacationed together after the three leaders left office, including numerous visits to Southampton.

There, Mulroney recalled one particular night when, “after a couple of whiskies,” Thatcher sang “The White Cliffs of Dover.”

“Listening to her slightly elevated contralto singing that, it was very moving because she was a living part of British history at the time,” Mulroney said. “I saw a very human side of Margaret Thatcher.”


Read more: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/thatcher-s ... z2PxrkM4XY
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by lennygoran » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:51 am

Chalkperson wrote:my friend Sunny Hundal,
I see that death threats have been tweeted to the website about is she dead yet in an article that mentions your friend! Regards, Len

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/ap ... et-website

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:59 am

There, Mulroney recalled one particular night when, “after a couple of whiskies,” Thatcher sang “The White Cliffs of Dover.”

“Listening to her slightly elevated contralto singing that, it was very moving because she was a living part of British history at the time,” Mulroney said. “I saw a very human side of Margaret Thatcher.”
It was moving or it was pathetic, if in her mind she was thinking about the kind of "blue skies" and "freedom" Britain would have because of her government.

If I remember correctly, Thatchers' position on the sanctions against South Africa (she opposed them) prompted one of the few instances of the Palace allowing the Queen's strongly opposing view to leak to the public.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:16 am

Her legacy has much in common with both the achievement and the "promise" of the idieological right in this country.


The New York Times

April 8, 2013
Thatcher’s Divided Isle
By A. C. GRAYLING

LONDON

IT is hard to think of a more divisive figure in British politics than Margaret Thatcher — at least since the days of the predecessor whom she most admired, the early 19th-century prime minister Lord Liverpool.

The high point of Liverpool’s term (1812 to 1827) was the victory over Napoleon at Waterloo; its low point was quickly dubbed Peterloo, the occasion on which British soldiers used their sabers and muskets to disperse workers rallying for better wages, labor conditions and suffrage at St. Peter’s Fields in Manchester in 1819.

Mrs. Thatcher’s 11-year tenure had much in common with Liverpool’s, both in its length and its attitudes toward organized labor.

Her admirers laud her for breaking Britain’s once-powerful trade unions, and liberalizing the City of London’s financial services industry; these acts, they say, halted the country’s economic decline. Her detractors blame her for destroying much of the country’s manufacturing base by refusing to aid struggling industries, and effectively annihilating the mining sector by emasculating the National Union of Miners. Her premiership will always be remembered for the bloody battles between workers and the police, and the high unemployment and sudden appearance of industrial wastelands that followed.

If Argentina hadn’t invaded the Falkland Islands in April 1982, she might not have even won the 1983 election. National pride raised her approval ratings, and the implosion of the opposition Labour Party sustained her party at the polls for nearly another decade.

Mrs. Thatcher’s own downfall was the so-called Poll Tax, a highly unpopular flat-rate levy on every adult, officially known as the Community Charge. The law was passed in 1988 and caused violence in many cities, including the London riot of March 31, 1990, before it was scheduled to take effect. The tax eventually helped precipitate her resignation from the premiership.

Mrs. Thatcher left behind a changed and divided Britain. She dismantled local government structures, leaving London without a unitary authority to manage its affairs, which meant that urban decay and the effects of unemployment were not adequately countered.

Her attitude on how people should live could be described as either Samuel Smiles (“Self-Help”) or Gordon Gekko (“greed... is good”). Despite being a woman who had shattered the political glass ceiling by becoming leader of her party and then prime minister, she did little to advance the cause of women generally, and would not publicly support the feminist movement. She was also unfriendly toward homosexuals, suggesting in her 1987 speech at the Conservative Party Conference that no one had a “right” to be gay.

By the time the Tories were defeated by Tony Blair’s re-branded centrist “new” Labour Party in 1997, she had become a highly toxic liability for Conservatives. The strain of politics she imposed on her own party effectively disabled it for a generation. The Tories now govern again, after more than a decade of Labour Party rule, but only in coalition with a minority party, the Liberal Democrats.

The Conservatives are unlikely to remain in power after the next election, to be held in 2015 or earlier, because the internal party divisions Mrs. Thatcher bequeathed still exist, especially when it comes to further European centralization and integration — a policy she famously denounced with the words “No. No. No.”

Today, Euroskeptics in Parliament are holding the party leadership hostage; they have extracted a pledge from the prime minister to hold a referendum on continued British membership in the European Union, despite the risk that leaving the union could have disastrous economic consequences.

The curious feature of Mrs. Thatcher’s legacy is that although she struck an ax-blow deep into the heart of Britain, it is society, not the political sphere, that remains deeply divided by a widening gap between rich and poor.

By contrast, the country’s politics have almost ceased to be ideological, as if exhausted by the Thatcher era. All the main British political parties now strive for the center ground, and the differences between them are about managerial style, not questions of principle.

The loss of ideology in British politics is neither good nor bad. It was inevitable when Britain became part of the larger political entity of Europe — a political entity Mrs. Thatcher vehemently disliked — which imposes constraints on how far the ideology of any national party can go.

With her contempt for softhearted liberalism, her hatred of trade unions, and her doctrinaire free-market principles, Mrs. Thatcher’s impact in her own day was huge. And its effects remain.

She began the deregulation of banking that led ultimately to Britain’s contribution to the global financial crisis of 2008. She reversed the trend of greater social integration and diminishing of the wealth gap that had characterized Britain in the three decades after 1945. Postwar convergences in class and wealth disappeared and former divisions resurfaced as consumerism and social incivility followed quickly on her brusque reorganization of British society.

In Britain, that is the chief memory of her that will most likely linger once the obsequies are done.

A. C. Grayling, a philosopher, is the master of the New College of the Humanities and the author, most recently, of “The God Argument: The Case Against Religion and for Humanism.”

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:15 am

lennygoran wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:my friend Sunny Hundal,
I see that death threats have been tweeted to the website about is she dead yet in an article that mentions your friend! Regards, Len

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/ap ... et-website
More interesting is that the the Twitter Hashtag #nowthatchersdead was misread by many Americans as "now that chers dead" causing much concern that the entertainer had died instead!
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by karlhenning » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:25 am

Do you mean to suggest, Chalkie, that Thatcher was not an entertainer?

; )

Cheers,
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:26 am

John F wrote:Since piston seems to be demanding replies to his bare post of a link to an obituary: from the point of view of classical music enthusiasts, Margaret Thatcher's signal "achievement" was deeply cutting the British Arts Council's funding and thereby "privatizing" and effectively diminishing financial support for such British institutions as the Royal Opera, the Royal Ballet, the Royal National Theatre, and the U.K.'s many fine orchestras including the Royal Philharmonic. The "Royal" moniker plus £2.15 will get you a caffe latte at a London Starbucks.

She also abolished the Greater London Council, leaving the U.K.'s and one of the world's great cities (and my own second favorite city in the world) without its own government or mayor. To an outsider like me, this looked like a purely political move against the then mayor of London, a Labourite sharply critical of Thatcher and her policies, and London paid dearly for her fit of pique. As soon as Labour came to power, it set about giving London back its own government, and the people of London elected the very same mayor who had lost his job to Thatcher's "reforms" 14 years before.

No doubt Chalkie will have something to say about this, whether or not he agrees.
Number 41 on my list, she cut 75% of funding to Museums, Galleries and the Arts.

You are referring to Red Ken (Ken Livingstone) and yes she destroyed the GLC in 1986 to shut him up, but he's a passionate and life long politician who won Londoners respect and became an MP from 1987 until 2000 when they voted him back in against Blair's wishes, he was a good Mayor, establishing bike lanes for those who could not afford petrol and he handled the 7/7 London bombings very well. He lost in 2008 and 2012 to Boris Johnson, who is likely to be a future Conservative leader.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:47 am

It may interest you all here to explain that Blair was voted in by the Goths, his wife Cherie wore black on Election night to acknowledge that fact. But Blair became Bush's Poodle and forced thru the Iraq War on lies to Parliament and by leaking false info to the press, ("Mad Saddam Ready to Attack: 45 Minutes from a Chemical War") The Brits will never forgive him for that either, they want him tried for War Crimes, legally they can do that although of course it's very unlikely.

Going back to Thatcher, I remember protesting a number of times against the deployment of US Cruise Missiles in the UK, in my opinion it gave the US a springboard to attack the Middle East, one that they could use without the permission or consent of the UK.

But it's her treatment of the Miners, the Hillsborough Disaster, the Falklands debacle, and the attempt to literally wipe Liverpool from the map via spending cuts that irks most people. It took decades to get the truth out regarding Hillsborough and Liverpool...

The Falklands had no real strategic value, and it would involve a Naval Battle (at sea) for the first time since WW2, Al Haig tried in vain on Reagan's behalf to get her to see sense and avoid War, she refused point blank.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 12:33 pm

Chalkperson wrote:It may interest you all here to explain that Blair was voted in by the Goths, his wife Cherie wore black on Election night to acknowledge that fact. But Blair became Bush's Poodle and forced thru the Iraq War on lies to Parliament and by leaking false info to the press, ("Mad Saddam Ready to Attack: 45 Minutes from a Chemical War") The Brits will never forgive him for that either, they want him tried for War Crimes, legally they can do that although of course it's very unlikely.
How lucky we are that our Iraq demon and economy destroyer were the same person. Leaves some hope that there's still an alternative. :wink:

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Seán » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:34 pm

Chalkperson wrote: Number 41 on my list, she cut 75% of funding to Museums, Galleries and the Arts.
Number 42. She tried to force a personal id card system on all football supporters, she described them as "the enemy within". Lord Justice Taylor saved football in Britain not Thatcher.

Number 43. By making martyrs of Bobby Sands and the rest of the IRA Hunger strikers she became the greatest recruiting agent for the Provisional IRA and has succeeded in making Sinn Féin/IRA respectable and hence their success at the ballot box North and South of the border.

Number 44. Oh yes she signed the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1985 but she was persuaded to do so by Ronald Reagan and made no secret of the fact that she regretted it ever since.
Seán

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Agnes Selby » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:00 pm

Mrs. Thatcher said:

"The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other
peoples money".

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by John F » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:06 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Mrs. Thatcher said: "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".
If she was really so concerned with what she called "other people's money," she shouldn't have wasted nearly £3 billion of it on a pointless war in the Falkland Islands, whose effect was to get Tories reelected in a fit of empty nationalism. That's the kind of thing she liked to spend other people's money on, rather than programs that genuinely benefit the people whose money is spent, such as the National Health Service.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:46 pm

John F wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:Mrs. Thatcher said: "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".
If she was really so concerned with what she called "other people's money," she shouldn't have wasted nearly £3 billion of it on a pointless war in the Falkland Islands, whose effect was to get Tories reelected in a fit of empty nationalism. That's the kind of thing she liked to spend other people's money on, rather than programs that genuinely benefit the people whose money is spent, such as the National Health Service.
I always thought that folly, the Falklands War, was simply (an insane amount of) pride. The kind which comes before a fall...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:50 pm

It seems Thatcher vetoed a State Funeral as she did not want to lie in State nd let the plebs walk past her coffin, so instead she gets a Ceremonial one, the difference is minor, 19 guns instead on 21, the hearse is pulled by horses, not by specially trained sailors. But, with the Queen in attendance it's a State funeral in all but name...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:19 pm

Betcha didn't know that the great actress Glenda Jackson has been an MP for 20 years. Be sure you listen to the part after her speech. (Thanks again to Chalkie for this one.)


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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by karlhenning » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:12 am

Chalkperson wrote:It seems Thatcher vetoed a State Funeral as she did not want to lie in State nd let the plebs walk past her coffin, so instead she gets a Ceremonial one, the difference is minor, 19 guns instead on 21, the hearse is pulled by horses, not by specially trained sailors. But, with the Queen in attendance it's a State funeral in all but name...
Her Majesty could hardly not attend, eh?

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by karlhenning » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:51 am

jbuck919 wrote:. . . Be sure you listen to the part after her speech.
Nice!

"Sharp elbows were the way forward." Doesn't seem at all unfamiliar . . . .

Cheers,
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Mark Harwood » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:36 pm

John F wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:Mrs. Thatcher said: "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".
If she was really so concerned with what she called "other people's money," she shouldn't have wasted nearly £3 billion of it on a pointless war in the Falkland Islands, whose effect was to get Tories reelected in a fit of empty nationalism. That's the kind of thing she liked to spend other people's money on, rather than programs that genuinely benefit the people whose money is spent, such as the National Health Service.
During Thatcher's term, GDP increased in real terms by 23%. Spending on the NHS rose by 32%.
"I did it for the music."
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Mark Harwood » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:39 pm

Chalkperson wrote:It seems Thatcher vetoed a State Funeral as she did not want to lie in State nd let the plebs walk past her coffin, so instead she gets a Ceremonial one, the difference is minor, 19 guns instead on 21, the hearse is pulled by horses, not by specially trained sailors. But, with the Queen in attendance it's a State funeral in all but name...
No fly-by either.

Had she expressed a desire for a State funeral, we'd have been less than impressed. Is it not perverse that even her wish not to have one is derided?
"I did it for the music."
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by John F » Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:36 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:
John F wrote:If she was really so concerned with what she called "other people's money," she shouldn't have wasted nearly £3 billion of it on a pointless war in the Falkland Islands, whose effect was to get Tories reelected in a fit of empty nationalism. That's the kind of thing she liked to spend other people's money on, rather than programs that genuinely benefit the people whose money is spent, such as the National Health Service.
During Thatcher's term, GDP increased in real terms by 23%. Spending on the NHS rose by 32%.
But she had her eye on the NHS. In 1988 her government ordered a close review of it and in 1990 passed a law introducing what it called competition. If she hadn't run out of time - the Tories fired her in 1990 when she overreached and had a poll tax imposed, causing riots in the streets - who knows what other "reforms" she might have imposed? Looks to me as if the NHS had a narrow escape.
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:27 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:
John F wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:Mrs. Thatcher said: "The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples money".
If she was really so concerned with what she called "other people's money," she shouldn't have wasted nearly £3 billion of it on a pointless war in the Falkland Islands, whose effect was to get Tories reelected in a fit of empty nationalism. That's the kind of thing she liked to spend other people's money on, rather than programs that genuinely benefit the people whose money is spent, such as the National Health Service.
During Thatcher's term, GDP increased in real terms by 23%. Spending on the NHS rose by 32%.
Those figures need to be put in context (which I am not in a position to do) to determine whether or not they are impressive. Below is a link to GDP growth figures, but 23% in eleven years doesn't actually sound particularly impressive (it doesn't sound awful either, but it strikes me as about the same annual rate as the US for the last few years, which is anemic). Health care expenditures can rise and still not keep up with increased health care costs. I am not saying that is what happened in Britain at the time, but those figures by themselves cannot be accepted uncritically as signs of positive accomplishment.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. ... .ZG?page=5

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:23 pm

Mark Harwood wrote:
Chalkperson wrote:It seems Thatcher vetoed a State Funeral as she did not want to lie in State nd let the plebs walk past her coffin, so instead she gets a Ceremonial one, the difference is minor, 19 guns instead on 21, the hearse is pulled by horses, not by specially trained sailors. But, with the Queen in attendance it's a State funeral in all but name...
No fly-by either.

Had she expressed a desire for a State funeral, we'd have been less than impressed. Is it not perverse that even her wish not to have one is derided?
I said that she did not want to lie in State, which is part and parcel of a State Funeral. The public usually wants to pay their last respects to great leaders.

Benjamin Disraeli put in his Will his wish not to have a State Funeral, Florence Nightingale's family refused one.

I did not suggest she did not want a Ceremonial one and she requested Full Military Honours go with it. But you can lie in State on a Ceremonial one too, the Queen Mother did...

I doubt anyone would notice the difference if it was not pointed out to them the gun salute was 19 for Prime Ministers instead of 21 for Royalty, and her coffin will be pulled by horses instead of being dragged by men.

She vetoed the Fly Past as too expensive, an attempt to seem budget conscious, the money should go to Liverpool...
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:53 pm

Here are some "highlights" of the funeral:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ights.html

You will hear spectators booing the procession, an excerpt which I imagine was not characteristic of the entire length of the thing. I liked one source's dry comment that the spectators were "several persons deep."

Lord Nelson, the Duke of Wellington, Winston Churchill, and....Margaret Thatcher? I'm sorry, but I still don't get it. An American president is entitled to a state funeral unless he or the family specifically refuse it (as happened with Harry Truman and Richard Nixon among others). Setting aside the negligible difference between a ceremonial and a state funeral, how do the Brits determine who gets one? Surely it cannot be just the wish of the individual. Britain has had many great and famous prime ministers. Are you telling me that they all specifically refused this honor and Thatcher just happened to accept? Or did they just not request one and she did? Chalkie?

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by John F » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:12 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_fune ... ntitlement

I gather that apart from the monarch, who receives a state funeral by right, others can do so only with the agreement of the Queen and the government. "Despite initial speculation that Margaret Thatcher would be accorded a state funeral after her death in 2013, the government indicated that she would not receive a state funeral 'in accordance with her own wishes.' Instead, she was to be accorded a ceremonial funeral with full military honours at St Paul's Cathedral, as authorised by Queen Elizabeth II."
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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:32 pm

Leave it to Wikipedia, which seems to have a whole division devoted to British formalities, to have an article on this.

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Re: Margaret Thatcher (1925-2013)

Post by Chalkperson » Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:53 am

jbuck919 wrote:Here are some "highlights" of the funeral:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... ights.html

You will hear spectators booing the procession, an excerpt which I imagine was not characteristic of the entire length of the thing. I liked one source's dry comment that the spectators were "several persons deep."

Lord Nelson, the Duke of Wellington, Winston Churchill, and....Margaret Thatcher? I'm sorry, but I still don't get it. An American president is entitled to a state funeral unless he or the family specifically refuse it (as happened with Harry Truman and Richard Nixon among others). Setting aside the negligible difference between a ceremonial and a state funeral, how do the Brits determine who gets one? Surely it cannot be just the wish of the individual. Britain has had many great and famous prime ministers. Are you telling me that they all specifically refused this honor and Thatcher just happened to accept? Or did they just not request one and she did? Chalkie?
As far as I know David Cameron cooked this one up, if not himself then his advisors, for a Ceremonial Funeral he needs no permission from the House of Commons, only the Queen. By getting Baroness Thatcher's approval in advance he was able to announce it a couple of years ago. Even in old age Thatcher was canny enough to refuse a State one, that would have had to de debated in the Commons and she foresaw a nasty row between the parties getting that thru, and, ever the elitist bitch she refused to lie in State, no plebs walking round the oak box for her thank you very much.

It did not happen for Anthony Eden, Clement Atlee, Harold Macmillan, Alec Douglas Home, Harold Wilson or Edward Heath, I doubt it will happen for Neil Kinnock, Jim Callaghan, John Major, Gordon Brown, Tony Blair or David Cameron.

Lady Diana was not supposed to have one but the public shamed the Queen into giving her one, the nation's beloved Queen Mother was given one with all the possible trimmings. Lord Mountbatton had a State one for being Viceroy of India, and because he was blown up by the IRA. The Queen wants the minimum possible for a reigning Monarch.

The final insult to us dissenters was that Big Ben was stopped for the first time since Churchill in 1965, it's simply unprecedented to do this but of course Big Ben is in Parliament so Cameron makes that decision too, in other words this whole thing is simply Political posturing, for Churchill the entire country literally stopped, that's my memory, the grimmest, bleakest day in my youth, it was too much for this ten year old, after an hour watching a coffin dragged by men thru London I walked out of the front room and went roller skating, I scuffed my left knee and still have the scar...

For my part I have not even seen a photo from today, or read a word in any media, i'm simply happy she no longer exists. I can't think of anyone in Britain who has given me a similar feeling, except perhaps Tony Blair...
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