The Clinton emails

Discuss whatever you want here ... movies, books, recipes, politics, beer, wine, TV ... everything except classical music.

Moderators: Lance, Corlyss_D

Post Reply
John F
Posts: 18959
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

The Clinton emails

Post by John F » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:22 am

Those who care have probably seen at least the conclusions of the FBI director's report of the Bureau's investigation. There were never going to be any indictments, that was a wet dream of the Republicans, but the director's criticism of Clinton and her staff was very sharp and rightly so. Since the Attorney General has committed publicly to accepting the FBI's conclusions, that should be that, unless some rogue prosecutor in the Dept. of Justice manages to go after Clinton.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

But the whole episode leaves me very uneasy. Why would Hillary Clinton, of all people, deliberately and repeatedly ignore or reject the most basic requirements for keeping the nation's highest secrets secure? The Clinton campaign has said this:
When Clinton got to the Department, she opted to use her personal email account as a matter of convenience. It enabled her to reach people quickly and keep in regular touch with her family and friends more easily given her travel schedule. That is the only reason she used her own account.
That simply will not do. For a Secretary of State and, likely, President of the United States to set her personal convenience above the nation's security is unacceptable. And it was all completely unnecessary. Many of us have separate e-mail setups for private personal communications and our public transactions; there's no difficulty or inconvenience in that. In my mind at least, it raises a serious question of what kind of president she will be, and whether she'll be able to get through the 4 or 8 years without impeachment by a hostile Congress implacably against her. She had better make a top-flight choice for vice president.

I will vote for her in November, as I was always going to, because no Republican except maybe Olympia Snow deserves my vote, Donald Trump least of all. But I won't be happy about it, and I expected to be. She has let us down.
John Francis

lennygoran
Posts: 13104
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by lennygoran » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:33 am

John F wrote: I will vote for her in November, as I was always going to, because no Republican except maybe Olympia Snow deserves my vote, Donald Trump least of all. But I won't be happy about it, and I expected to be. She has let us down.
I'll vote for her too but I can hardly watch the news anymore and watch the Republicans using all this ammo on her-Trump has a tailor made weapon to use even he blundered badly yesterday by touting Sadam Hussein-Ryan had to step away from that one! Regards, Len :(

Trump praises Saddam Hussein's efficient killing of 'terrorists,' calls today's Iraq 'Harvard for terrorism'
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/05/politics/ ... terrorism/

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9797
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by karlhenning » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:37 am

John F wrote:[...]
I will vote for her in November, as I was always going to, because no Republican except maybe Olympia Snow deserves my vote, Donald Trump least of all. But I won't be happy about it, and I expected to be. She has let us down.
John, I am relieved to read this; thank you.

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9797
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by karlhenning » Fri Jul 08, 2016 4:38 am

lennygoran wrote:I'll vote for her too but I can hardly watch the news anymore and watch the Republicans using all this ammo on her-Trump has a tailor made weapon to use even he blundered badly yesterday by touting Sadam Hussein-Ryan had to step away from that one! Regards, Len :(
A raft of unforced errors on the part of Madam Secretary, Len.

Best,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

lennygoran
Posts: 13104
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:20 am

karlhenning wrote:A raft of unforced errors on the part of Madam Secretary, Len.
Karl I watched the Comey hearings yesterday-it was painful but I'm glad he held his ground-still I'm plenty worried by all this-Trump has plenty of ammo. Regards, Len :(

John F
Posts: 18959
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by John F » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:37 am

I'm not worried about Trump - every few days he finds a new way to disqualify himself, and by election day he'll have dug himself a hole halfway to China. And I'm not worried about what other Republicans may say either; their slanders couldn't prevent Barack Obama from being elected, twice, and they haven't gained strength since then. No, I'm concerned with what kind of president she will be when we elect her. (As I said before.)
John Francis

jserraglio
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:34 am

Yes, Clinton made mistakes. And the congressmen who criticized her in the hearing are innocent of both unforced errors and unforced accomplishments. Fortunately, they are stuck with a nominee who is never wrong.

John F
Posts: 18959
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by John F » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:04 am

My concern isn't that Clinton made mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Rather, it's the attitude, the mindset, that her particular mistakes reveal, and what they show about her priorities in making important decisions in a high governmental position. I've already discussed this at the head of this thread and won't repeat myself. But I hope that when it comes to the crunch, such as whether to send American military forces into battle, she exercises better judgment than she has from beginning to end about the e-mail thing.
John Francis

jserraglio
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:40 am

True, her cavalier attitude/mindset on this matter is open to criticism, as is the smug, leering demeanor of the House Republicans in yesterday's hearing. Even the Republican FBI director could barely conceal his contempt for those rapscallions. My point is that Clinton's accomplishments as senator and Sec'y of State outweigh the shortcomings you point to.

As for impeachment, I reckon the House Republicans would impeach a ham sandwich these days. I'm not losing any sleep over that putative badge of honor.

John F
Posts: 18959
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by John F » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:37 am

You're talking about tha past and about the election. But set that aside for a moment; I said at the beginning that I'll be voting for Clinton in November. I'm talking about the future and the Clinton presidency.

At great cost to her credibility, she obstinately put personal privacy ahead of her duty to safeguard the nation's secrets, and repeatedly ignored the government's regulations and procedures for handling those secrets and the urging of security professionals in favor of an unauthorized amateur-hour setup of her own. In her view, she was right and the government in which she served was wrong.

This wrong-headedness, indeed pig-headedness, may not have disastrous consequences, though as the FBI Director said and we all know, skilled hackers can compromise a server without leaving a trace. But apply the same attitude to, say, our role in the Syrian war, and consider that she tends toward hawkishness (she was in favor of American intervention in Syria while Secretary of State), and she could get us into the same kind of trouble that George W. Bush did by invading Iraq.

The fact that Donald Trump could and doubtless would get us into even worse trouble is beside my point. He's not going to be president. She is.
John Francis

jserraglio
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:59 pm

I am not, as you would have it, speaking of just the past and the election. I am pointing out that if it is fair for you to extrapolate from Clinton's email fiasco to her future conduct as President on national security matters, then it would be equally fair for me to extrapolate from her overall performance as Secretary of State (largely, as Mr. Obama and others, qtd below, have stated, a record of solid accomplishment) to her future performance as POTUS in foreign policy. Of course, she is far from perfect, is clearly in the wrong on the "damn emails" and like any beanball target, tends to get a bit tetchy when headhunters throw at her.
Lindsay Graham (2012) wrote:I think she's represented our nation well. She is extremely well respected throughout the world, handles herself in a very classy way and has a work ethic second to none.
Orrin Hatch (2010),[i] on HRC as a possible Supreme Court nominee[/i] wrote:I happen to like Hillary Clinton, I think she's done a good job for the Democrats -- Secretary of State's position, and I have high respect for her, and think a great deal of her.
https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing ... op-praise/

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26232
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by jbuck919 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:31 pm

General Turgidson, I was under the impression that only I had the authority to launch a nuclear attack.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

John F
Posts: 18959
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am
Location: New York, NY

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by John F » Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:58 pm

jserraglio wrote:it would be equally fair for me to extrapolate from her overall performance as Secretary of State (largely, as Mr. Obama and others, qtd below, have stated, a record of solid accomplishment) to her future performance as POTUS in foreign policy.
I'm not saying that wouldn't be fair, I'm saying it's beside the point. As Secretary of State she was not making the kind of decisions a president has to make; she was formulating options from which the actual president could choose, and as often as not, he didn't choose what she preferred. That's how it is when one is in a staff position rather than a command position.

That she carried out what President Obama assigned her to do, and did it well enough that even a couple of Republican senators have praised her, is certainly to her credit. But it does not answer concerns about what she might do or has done when she's the boss and nobody can say her nay. That will depend on her way of thinking and, more deeply, her character, and as a case in point, the whole story of the e-mail servers is deeply unsettling to me, and not just to me. If you aren't concerned, then so be it; I hope you're right.
John Francis

jserraglio
Posts: 3616
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 7:06 am
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:51 pm

With respect, it is not beside the point.

I am arguing that to reach a fair assessment of Clinton's candidacy, her entire record be taken into account, not just a single thread of behavior where the candidate has already admitted to making a serious error.

I am not persuaded by your suggestion that the presidency is so unique that one's achievements in a subordinate capacity cannot be used to gauge how one would perform as President. By that logic no one except former presidents would ever be deemed suitable for the office. Nor by your assertion that the Secretary of State, fourth in the constitutional line of succession, is a "staff", rather than a "command" position. Jefferson, Madison, Monroe and JQ Adams notwithstanding?

As I see it, Clinton has demonstrated plenty of character. She accepted Mr Obama's call out of the wild blue yonder to serve her country as Secy when she just as easily could have kept her sinecure in the Senate. She and Mr Clinton made personal and financial sacrifices to do so. Once in office she made herself competent in foreign affairs where she had no special professional expertise. She ran a department with 70,000 employees. She rehabilitated the image of her country in the wake of the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld era of lone-ranger adventurism. Last, unlike many other public officials, she owned up to making a serious error in judgement. In my book, that takes character.

Many respected figures on the right, not just a couple Republican senators, Henry Kissinger and Condoleezza Rice, to name two more, have praised her Secretaryship. Brent Scowcroft has endorsed her candidacy.

I am surprised to be told that, as Secretary, Clinton "carried out what President Obama assigned" (as if she were a schoolgirl?) when the record of her term is full of initiatives that redound to her credit.

True, I would not call her an imaginative or transformative figure in foreign affairs. Dean Acheson, Henry Kissinger, George Ball or George Kennan she was not. But she served admirably and honorably and had a solid record of accomplishment. Also true, some of her aggressive stances are open to question. So we might find some agreement there.

lennygoran
Posts: 13104
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:28 pm
Location: new york city

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by lennygoran » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:29 am

jserraglio wrote:
Many respected figures on the right, not just a couple Republican senators, Henry Kissinger
I have trouble respecting Kissinger at this point-glad he got tossed around in the opera Nixon In China! Regards, Len :lol:

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9797
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by karlhenning » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:11 am

John F wrote:My concern isn't that Clinton made mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Rather, it's the attitude, the mindset, that her particular mistakes reveal, and what they show about her priorities in making important decisions in a high governmental position. I've already discussed this at the head of this thread and won't repeat myself. But I hope that when it comes to the crunch, such as whether to send American military forces into battle, she exercises better judgment than she has from beginning to end about the e-mail thing.
Completely agree.

Cheers,
~K.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9797
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Re: The Clinton emails

Post by karlhenning » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:12 am

jbuck919 wrote:General Turgidson, I was under the impression that only I had the authority to launch a nuclear attack.
Thanks, John: I needed that.

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests