Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

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jserraglio
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Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:14 pm

New York Times

PRAGUE — As European far-right leaders gathered in Prague on Saturday for a two-day conference to unify their stance on immigration and other issues, they were met by throngs of protesters who booed, shouted “Shame” and denounced populism and xenophobia.
The members of the European Parliament, including Marine Le Pen of France and Geert Wilders of the Netherlands, met as part of the nationalist Europe of Nations and Freedom coalition at a heavily fortified hotel just outside the city center in the Czech Republic, which has seen a rise in far-right politics and nationalist rhetoric.
At a news conference, Mr. Wilders, leader of the Dutch Party for Freedom, called on the European Union to adopt more restrictive immigration policies and said the conference would serve to usher in a new era of cooperation among like-minded parties.
“In 30 or 50 years, the Czech Republic will be surrounded by countries with population where 20 percent of people will be Muslims.” Mr. Wilders said. “That is as if the Czech Republic became a Gaza Strip. We need to prevent mass migration even if we should build a wall.”
The conference was hosted by the anti-Islam and anti-immigrant Freedom and Direct Democracy party, known as the SPD. The party emerged as a major force in Czech parliamentary elections in October, winning nearly 11 percent of the vote.
Tomio Okamura, the Czech-Japanese leader of the SPD, said the gathering on Saturday was to demand a reformed European Union based on the tightest possible cooperation of sovereign nations, guided by mutual benefits without any dictate from Brussels, while maintaining free movement of people, good, capital and services.
“Europe should not be a denationalized state directed by bureaucrats in Brussels,” Mr. Okamura said. He added that he believed Europe was threatened by the degradation of traditional values and the suppression of patriotism.
During the news conference, Mr. Okamura, Ms. Le Pen and Mr. Wilders accused the bloc of destroying the sovereignty of member states by adopting a mandatory quota for asylum seekers from the Middle East.
“Because we like Europe, we say that the E.U. is going to kill her,” said Ms. Le Pen, president of the National Front and a former French presidential candidate. “We are patriots; we defend our sovereignty,” she added.
The Muslim community in the Czech Republic is between 5,000 and 20,000, or less than 0.02 percent of the total population. So far, the country has taken in just 12 asylum seekers as part of the European Union quota. The bloc plans to take the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland to court for failing to accommodate their fair share of refugees under a plan agreed to by the 28-country body.
Mr. Wilders said he hoped the Czech capital would keep its doors closed to migrants.
As in neighboring Poland and Hungary, anti-immigrant and anti-establishment rhetoric has become a mainstay in politics in the Czech Republic, helping the eccentric billionaire and Euro-skeptic Andrej Babis to become prime minister in the last elections.
While he is also staunchly against the European Union’s migrant quotas, he pledged during his campaign not to cooperate with the far-right groups. But since taking office this past week without a majority in Parliament to rule outright, he has shown a willingness to work with Mr. Okamura and his SPD party on a quid pro quo basis.
Several leftist groups that opposed the meeting in Prague organized protests on Friday and Saturday in the center of the capital and on the outskirts of city, where the conference took place. About 400 people gathered Saturday outside the news conference, chanting, whistling and booing far-right supporters as they entered the compound, guarded by security and police officers.
“In the Czech Republic, there is an increasing number of attacks against minorities due to the policies of the Czech SPD party,” said Jan Cemper, the protests’ organizer. “At the same time, we want to show that such congresses of xenophobes and populists are not welcomed here.”
Fedor Gal, a former dissident and a public figure in the Czech Republic and Slovakia, referring to extreme right politicians, said, “Those are people that do not care for a dialogue, and they do not deserve our tolerance.”
Czech politicians condemned the conference. Jiri Pospisil, chairman of TOP 09, a center-right party, wrote in a Facebook post: “Extremists that threaten the interests of both the Czech Republic and Europe gather in Prague. They want to leave the EU and NATO and bring us close to Russia of Vladimir Putin. What a shame that the host is vice chairman of the Czech parliament.”
Security measures were tight for the far-right politicians, particularly Mr. Wilders, who has faced threats. No violence was reported, however, and the police did not intervene in the demonstrations.
Though no public agenda for the conference was made public, the group introduced the Belgian right-wing politician Gerolf Annemans as the Europe of Nations and Freedom’s new president and visited the Czech Parliament on a guided tour.
Also expected at the conference were Janice Atkinson, an independent member of the European Parliament who was expelled from Britain’s populist U.K.I.P. party two years ago amid a financing scandal; and Marcus Pretzell, a German member of the European Parliament formerly with the Alternative for Germany party, known as the AfD

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:56 pm

There will always be an extreme Right in any democracy. Hitler came to power through legitimate means under one of the most democratic regimes (the Weimar Republic) there has ever been. Fortunately, all modern elections in western Europe have rejected the program of the far Right, while we still have to worry about it in the US. It is a difference of education and restrictions on true democracy that have been in place in the US since the Constitution was ratified. Of those two, education is now IMO the more important factor.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:26 pm

Education no cure, in my view. Cf. the recent upsurge of rightist fanaticism on US college campuses.

Steve Bannon educated at Georgetown and Harvard. Stephen Miller at Duke.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:55 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:26 pm
Education no cure, in my view. Cf. the recent upsurge of rightist fanaticism on US college campuses.

Steve Bannon educated at Georgetown and Harvard. Stephen Miller at Duke.
Knowledge and lust for power should not be confused. My own congresswoman, Elise Stefanik, also went to Harvard and is a Republican because she thinks that is the best way she can have a political career. It is the general level of education of the hoi polloi that is at issue.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:11 pm

jbuck919 wrote:It is the general level of education of the hoi polloi that is at issue.
I haven't observed that a blue-chip education confers any special political acumen. Except that those with it are far better at glib rationalization and disguising of their biases than those who lack education. As someone once told McGeorge Bundy, one of the architects of the Vietnam disaster, "Just because you talk better than I do, Mac, doesn't make you right.

The undereducated "hoi polloi" you speak of with contempt have been historically politically progressive, electing the great FDR four times, Truman, JFK and LBJ once each and Clinton and Obama twice.

My extended family were among the hoi polloi and were far more progressive than those who sport degrees as if they were titles of nobility.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:19 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:11 pm
jbuck919 wrote:It is the general level of education of the hoi polloi that is at issue.
I haven't observed that a blue-chip education confers any special political acumen. Except that those with it are far better at glib rationalization and disguising of their biases than those who lack education. As someone once told McGeorge Bundy, one of the architects of the Vietnam disaster, "Just because you talk better than I do, Mac, doesn't make you right.

The undereducated "hoi polloi" you speak of with contempt have been historically politically progressive, electing the great FDR four times, Truman, JFK and LBJ once each and Clinton and Obama twice.

My extended family were among the hoi polloi and were far more progressive than those who sport degrees as if they were titles of nobility.
You and I both have blue chip educations, and we are approximately the same age, so you know that you are talking nonsense. Political conservatism in the Ivy League has always been a matter of ego and contrarianism, which unfortunately has not kept such people out of power. As for the rest, my grandparents had fifth-grade educations and my great-grandparents were illiterate. Only my mother, a high school graduate, was a Democrat in an almost universally Republican milieu. So there.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 pm

jbuck919 wrote:you know that you are talking nonsense.
Well, I come from where both political parties had historical roots in Progressivism. Where the uneducated and undereducated were largely Democrats.

Speaking of the nonsensical, here's a sure-fire howler: With better schooling, the great unwashed would become politically enlightened.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:33 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 pm
Speaking of the nonsensical, here's a sure-fire howler: With better schooling, the great unwashed would become politically enlightened.
I have no answers for this but the conversation made me think of Hillary, Trump's base and the deplorables comment. Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:47 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:33 am
jserraglio wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 pm
Speaking of the nonsensical, here's a sure-fire howler: With better schooling, the great unwashed would become politically enlightened.
I have no answers for this but the conversation made me think of Hillary, Trump's base and the deplorables comment. Regards, Len
Hillary's was a deplorable comment and it cost her. Bluestockings should steer clear of such ill-fitting household metaphors.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:16 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:47 am
Hillary's was a deplorable comment, characteristic in its myopia of those on the left who need to be brought up to speed with the tradition of Midwestern progressivism.
There's are so many new developments coming at one these days I decided to go back and review the news when she made that comment-wonder how much it cost her in losing the election-otoh I can't help thinking about Trump's comments on Charlottesville. Anyway I reread this article. Regards, Len


Hillary Clinton walks back 'basket of deplorables' remark

The Trump campaign had demanded an apology — but they didn't quite get one.

By CRISTIANO LIMA

09/09/2016 11:24 PM EDT


“Last night I was ‘grossly generalistic,’ and that's never a good idea. I regret saying ‘half’ -- that was wrong," Clinton said in a statement.



Hillary Clinton partially walked back comments she made on Friday night, describing half of Donald Trump's supporters as "deplorables" who were driven “racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic" sentiments.

“Last night I was ‘grossly generalistic,’ and that's never a good idea. I regret saying ‘half’ — that was wrong," Clinton said in a statement released Saturday afternoon.

Clinton made the comments at a fundraising event Friday in New York City, and by the next morning the Trump campaign was demanding an apology.

The Republican nominee tweeted early on Saturday: "Wow, Hillary Clinton was SO INSULTING to my supporters, millions of amazing, hard working people. I think it will cost her at the Polls!"

“Come to an event; talk to real people who aren't donors,” Trump campaign manager Kellyanne Conway wrote in a Twitter exchange with Clinton spokesman Nick Merrill. “Or better: have Hillary apologize.”

Clinton's expression of regret stopped well short of an apology, however.

"But let's be clear," she wrote, going on to rattle off a list of Trump's offenses. "[W]hat's really ‘deplorable’ is that Donald Trump hired a major advocate for the so-called ‘alt-right’ movement to run his campaign and that David Duke and other white supremacists see him as a champion of their values. It's deplorable that Trump has built his campaign largely on prejudice and paranoia and given a national platform to hateful views and voices, including by retweeting fringe bigots with a few dozen followers and spreading their message to 11 million people."

"I won't stop calling out bigotry and racist rhetoric in this campaign," she went on, but she offered an olive branch of sorts to downscale Trump voters. "I also meant what I said last night about empathy, and the very real challenges we face as a country where so many people have been left out and left behind. As I said, many of Trump's supporters are hard-working Americans who just don’t feel like the economy or our political system are working for them. I'm determined to bring our country together and make our economy work for everyone, not just those at the top."

After Clinton's statement was released, she then responded to a Trump tweet.

Trump then released a statement Saturday afternoon: "Isn't it disgraceful that Hillary Clinton makes the worst mistake of the political season and instead of owning up to this grotesque attack on American voters, she tries to turn it around with a pathetic rehash of the words and insults used in her failing campaign? For the first time in a long while, her true feelings came out, showing bigotry and hatred for millions of Americans."

The event, a gala for the group LGBT for Hillary at Cipriani Wall Street that featured Barbara Streisand, was not the first time Clinton has used the term "deplorables." But her extended riff this time drew swift and harsh condemnation from Republicans -- as well as comparisons to past presidential campaign gaffes.

Clinton’s comments came as she urged the crowd of donors not to “get complacent” after seeing “the latest outrageous, offensive, inappropriate comment” from Trump and assume, “Well, he's done this time.”

Trump has defined his campaign at times as a crusade against "political correctness" and offended minority groups with his comments about Muslims, Mexicans and African-Americans. His new campaign team — led by Conway — has sought to steer him in a more inclusive direction. Polls suggest he has made few inroads among minority voters, though he has recovered somewhat with the college-educated white voters who are crucial to any winning Republican coalition.

Clinton's campaign has hardly disguised its strategy of associating Trump with the far-right elements of his base and reminding voters of his most incendiary remarks, hoping to arrest any further improvement in his numbers.

“You know,” Clinton said at the LGBT event, “to just be grossly generalistic, you could put half of Trump's supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables.”

“Right?” Clinton said as the crowd laughed and applauded.

“The racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, Islamaphobic -- you name it,” Clinton continued. “And unfortunately there are people like that. And he has lifted them up. He has given voice to their websites that used to only have 11,000 people -- now have 11 million. He tweets and retweets their offensive, hateful, mean-spirited rhetoric.”

The Democratic nominee then sought to draw a distinction between the two halves of the “basket.”

“Now, some of those folks -- they are irredeemable, but thankfully they are not America. But the other basket,” she said, “are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they're just desperate for change.”

These Trump supporters, Clinton said, “don't buy everything he says,” but “hold out some hope that their lives will be different” with him as president. “They won't wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they're in a dead end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well.”

Conway was quick to criticize the comments, jabbing Clinton on Twitter for "placing people in 'baskets'" and insulting "millions of Americans."

“Treating people as subhuman - irredeemable/deplorable - is no way to run for POTUS,” tweeted Tim Miller, a former Jeb Bush spokesman and fervent Trump opponent. “Dems shld skip the excuses & move straight to mea culpa.”

But Merrill, Clinton’s traveling press secretary, defended the remarks as the political furor began to rage online.

“She gave an entire speech about how the alt right movement is using his campaign to advance its hate movement,” he tweeted on Friday evening. “Obviously not everyone supporting Trump is part of the alt right, but alt right leaders are with Trump. And their supporters appear to make up half his crowd when you observe the tone of his events."

In a statement later released by the Trump campaign, senior communications adviser Jason Miller said Clinton's comments "revealed her true contempt for everyday Americans."

"What’s truly deplorable isn’t just that Hillary Clinton made an inexcusable mistake in front of wealthy donors and reporters happened to be around to catch it," he wrote. "It’s that Clinton revealed just how little she thinks of the hard-working men and women of America.”

Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus said in a statement, "By referring to millions of Americans as ‘deplorables’ and ‘irredeemable,’ Hillary Clinton is showing her outright contempt for ordinary people and proving yet again why Americans overwhelmingly regard her as dishonest and untrustworthy."

Clinton, who has seen polls tighten with Trump nationally and in key swing states in recent weeks, has made a renewed push for bipartisan support, touting endorsements from conservative figures and courting Republican donors who find the GOP nominee unpalatable.

The comments reminded some of Mitt Romney's remark in the 2012 presidential campaign -- also at a fundraiser -- that he didn't worry about the "47 percent" of voters who would vote for Democrats in exchange for government handouts.

Others pointed to then Sen. Barack Obama's strikingly similar 2008 comment -- again, captured at a donor event -- that small-town voters "cling to guns or religion,” which Republicans said showed contempt for ordinary Americans.

“The parallel is disdain for the unwashed,” tweeted conservative columnist Tim Carney.

“You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them,” Obama said then. “And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.”

Obama was pilloried for those comments, including by none other than his Democratic primary opponent at the time, Hillary Clinton.

She ripped him as "elitist" and cast him as someone who couldn't possibly fathom the struggles of "working, hard-working Americans, white Americans."


https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/ ... les-227988

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:33 pm

She handed her opponents a sword to use against her: "Hillary is a smug, superior smarty pants. We'll show her." Her baskets remark was all the worse for being for public consumption, unlike Romney's 47% remark. More like Goldwater's "extremism in defense of liberty is no vice." at the '64 GOP Convention. The election was close enough here in the Midwest that the remark may have cost her Michigan and Wisconsin, maybe even Pennsylvania.

One thing is comforting -- in 2016 candidates could not help but reveal who they really were. Trump a loathsome slimeball, Hillary a nagging suffragette. Choose your poison.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:10 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:08 pm
jbuck919 wrote:you know that you are talking nonsense.
Well, I come from where both political parties had historical roots in Progressivism. Where the uneducated and undereducated were largely Democrats.

Speaking of the nonsensical, here's a sure-fire howler: With better schooling, the great unwashed would become politically enlightened.
Well, they wouldn't become less so. I'm not talking about elite higher education, but about K-12. Also, I am not talking about universal results that would make things the way would like them. Expecting higher returns than are realistic is always fallacious, other examples being drug rehabilitation and prison recidivism rates (which end up in the US being nearly the same thing). Giving a suit of armor that is invincible to ignorant arguments to 60% of the people is better than giving it only to 40%. Yes, I did make up those numbers, but you get my point.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:07 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:10 pm
Well, they wouldn't become less so.
Well, if the argument has now become that it would not hurt to have more education, I guess I could agree: politically speaking, more education is innocuous. I just don't think more education helps to any great extent. In the New Deal, many lacked a formal education but were savvy enough to recognize in FDR a towering statesman. In recent months, Trump has lost 18-20 points of approval among his supposedly solid base; he is just barely above water in Alabama which he won by 2-1 a year ago. Either those folks suddenly got their GEDs, or they wised up astutely to the fact that Trump has been up to no good.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by Ricordanza » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:26 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:33 pm
One thing is comforting -- in 2016 candidates could not help but reveal who they really were. Trump a loathsome slimeball, Hillary a nagging suffragette. Choose your poison.
Hillary's "basket of deplorables" remark was a serious gaffe, and she made some other costly errors in her campaign (amply documented in the book "Shattered" by Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes). But do you really believe, after all we've seen in the past year from this poor excuse for a president, that Trump and Hillary are equally "poison?" Come on!

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:50 am

Ricordanza wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:26 am
do you really believe, after all we've seen in the past year from this poor excuse for a president, that Trump and Hillary are equally "poison?" Come on!
Nope, i don't, being one of 3,000,000 to sign a petition to impeach Trump and having voted for Clinton (more accurately, my wife voted for me). But Obama was wrong in 2008, Hillary was not likable enough. And likability is important to a lot of voters.
Last edited by jserraglio on Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:02 am

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:50 am
my wife cast my ballot for me.
Can you explain this-is there some regulation that allows this to be done? Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:08 am

lennygoran wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:02 am
jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:50 am
my wife cast my ballot for me.
Can you explain this-is there some regulation that allows this to be done? Regards, Len
Sure, it's like Howard Hawks allowing John Wayne to direct scenes for him. "Why waste my breath", he said, "Duke knows what I want." She is much better informed about issues and candidates, and much more liberal, than I so I just look over and sign the absentee ballot she fills out for me. If anyone asks, I'll just claim to be non compos mentis, which I am certain will not be disputed by any party.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:16 am

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:08 am
Can you explain this-is there some regulation that allows this to be done? Regards, Len
Sure, it's like Howard Hawks allowing John Wayne to direct scenes for him. "Why waste my breath", he said, "Duke knows what I want." She is much better informed about issues and candidates than I so I just look over and sign the absentee ballot she fills out for me. If anyone asks, I'll just claim to be non compos mentis, which I am certain will not be disputed by any party.
[/quote]

Wait a second-could this spark another voter fraud investigation! Regards, Len :lol:

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:20 am

I can't be alone. If it were generally known how many women exercise effective control over their men's votes, it might lead Congress to pass more laws that privilege women.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:20 am
I can't be alone. If it were generally known how many women exercise effective control over their men's votes, it might lead to revolutionary outrages outside Trump Tower.
Look I know you're not close to NYC-I could go in your place since I pass close to Trump tower alot-I could start some sort of revolutionary outrage over there-if he fires Mueller I just might do that! If I run into trouble I could always implicate you! Regards, Len :lol:

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 am

lennygoran wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:02 am
jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:20 am
I can't be alone. If it were generally known how many women exercise effective control over their men's votes, it might lead to revolutionary outrages outside Trump Tower.
Look I know you're not close to NYC-I could go in your place since I pass close to Trump tower alot-I could start some sort of revolutionary outrage over there-if he fires Mueller I just might do that! If I run into trouble I could always implicate you! Regards, Len :lol:
Thanks, but I am already in Manhattan as a virtual protester. Ever since signing Tom Seyer's Need to Impeach petition, my initials and city have been slated for display on his electronic billboard in Times Square. My name in lights in the Big Apple. Who knew?

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:25 am
Thanks, but I am already in Manhattan as a virtual protester. Ever since signing Tom Seyer's Need to Impeach petition, my initials and city have been slated for display on his electronic billboard in Times Square. My name in lights in the Big Apple. Who knew?
[/quote]

It's not like being here-same as when your wife votes for you-you're leading a charmed existence! Regards, Len :mrgreen:

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:45 am

lennygoran wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:10 pm
It's not like being here . . . you're leading a charmed existence!
I am proud to be rooted in the Five-States Region. Which made education free and, unlike prosperous New York or uppity New England, never countenanced slavery. I eagerly await David McCullough's forthcoming book on the settlement of the Northwest Territory.

That being said, I grant that Manhattan is a fascinating fantasy playground. In fact I still am haunted by memories, on my way to GCS to catch a Tarrytown train, of the mournful, morning whores calling out from Lexington Avenue doorways.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:10 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:45 am
That being said, I grant that Manhattan is a fascinating fantasy playground. In fact I still am haunted by memories, on my way to GCS to catch a Tarrytown train, of the mournful, morning whores calling out from Lexington Avenue doorways.
NYC has sure changed a lot since then-I remember when you didn't want to walk in Central Park!--btw when was the last time you visited NYC? Regards, Len

Image

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:09 am

At its supposed nadir, 1976. Not a visitor, lived there. 19th & 2nd, 3-room apt, $300/mo rent. Not sure I would like the gentrification that has set in since. Loved Manhattan diversity back then, even the panhandlers and streetwalkers. Never feared for safety and I got around at all hours quite a bit, including long walks in Central Park, the Bowery, the Lower East Side, Brooklyn and the Bronx. Did not feel especially welcome in Harlem though.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:18 am

jserraglio wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:09 am
Not sure I would like the gentrification that has set in since. Loved Manhattan diversity back then
We love that gentrification-we feel much safer now. Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 pm

One place I really feared was Boston's now vanished "Combat Zone". Had to walk thru several times a week to get to work. The Wild West. Nothing I experienced in NYC even came close.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:39 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 pm
One place I really feared was Boston's now vanished "Combat Zone". Had to walk thru several times a week to get to work. The Wild West. Nothing I experienced in NYC even came close.
We have a relative who was doing ambulance work many years ago around there who was wounded by a gun shot but is okay today. We've been up to Boston many times for opera and museum events and also to visit family and friends-that area which is close to Chinatown and close to Emerson where operas are sometimes performed is much safer now! Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:31 pm

Yeah, one thing is that VHS tapes eventually killed off the porn flick houses and bookstores. But if you were walking on the sidewalk there, you were considered fair game; they assumed you were there for what they offered and literally grabbed you. For me it was the only way to get to the subway. By comparison, when I got to see Times Square it looked like an Episcopal Sunday ice-cream social.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:00 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:31 pm
For me it was the only way to get to the subway.
Ah, their subway--the T-I still keep their Charlie Card in my wallet-it's kept behind the Washington DC senior smarttrip card-of course they're both kept behind my NYC senior metrocard! Regards, Len :D

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:57 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:31 pm
Yeah, one thing is that VHS tapes eventually killed off the porn flick houses and bookstores. But if you were walking on the sidewalk there, you were considered fair game; they assumed you were there for what they offered and literally grabbed you. For me it was the only way to get to the subway. By comparison, when I got to see Times Square it looked like an Episcopal Sunday ice-cream social.
And now all the porn houses that featured VHS rental are OOB. Neither of you experienced the Baltimore phenomenon known as "The Block," though it was made famous by various local porn figures (Divine) and Baltimore's favorite son John Waters. It had its barkers too, but otherwise was a pretty innocent and not tawdry walk-by if it were a convenient way to get from one part of a walkable city to another. I never "caught the scene" in Boston, but Times Square was such a mess for so many years. Open solicitation by adolescent boys and girls, most of them runaways, and one could scarcely avoid it if one had to frequent the old Port Authority Bus Terminal for its intended transit purpose. Incidentally, it was also part of the scene.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:06 am

On the plus side of the ledger, one of my favorite places was the bank of the Hudson outside Tarrytown. I understood then why rivers are sacred to Native Americans. Runners-up: the Cape Cod national seashore, New York harbor on a cloudless day. The walkway of Brooklyn Bridge.

Best of the lot. I live a 5-minute walk from arguably the most extensive and natural park ringing any industrial-age American city, William Stinchcomb's stunningly visionary 18,500-acre Cleveland Metroparks "Emerald Necklace" (By contrast its predecessor, Frederick Law Olmsted's spectacular but formal Boston Emerald Necklace park is only about 1,100 acres). Once inside this vast man-made eco-system, you can hike (or drive) east, west and south and back w/o ever exiting the park. Abundance of wildlife: aquatic, aerial and herds of deer. Metroparks is also connected to the 32,500 acre Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Both urban parks taken together encompass more than 50.000 acres of natural woodland with easy access points right in the urban area, one of which entrances is right around the corner from where I live off a busy I-90 exit. Within seconds of entering, one is confronted by the illusion that only the natural world exists.

Image

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:36 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:57 pm
> Neither of you experienced the Baltimore phenomenon known as "The Block," though it was made famous by various local porn figures (Divine) and Baltimore's favorite son John Waters.
Had to check wiki for exactly where "The Block" was and apparently still is though diminished. Over the years we've been to Baltimore many times but have studiously checked out where we are willing to stop and walk-the Inner Harbor is fine but the area above it up the hill is definitely still out of bounds for us. Regards, Len [cautious]

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:55 am

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:06 am
On the plus side of the ledger, one of my favorite places was the bank of the Hudson outside Tarrytown. I understood then why rivers are sacred to Native Americans. Runners-up: the Cape Cod national seashore, New York harbor on a cloudless day. The walkway of Brooklyn Bridge.

Best of the lot. I live a 5-minute walk from arguably the most extensive and natural park ringing any industrial-age American city, William Stinchcomb's stunningly visionary 18,500-acre Cleveland Metroparks "Emerald Necklace" (By contrast its predecessor, Frederick Law Olmsted's spectacular but formal Boston Emerald Necklace park is only about 1,100 acres). Once inside this vast man-made eco-system, you can hike (or drive) east, west and south and back w/o ever exiting the park. Abundance of wildlife: aquatic, aerial and herds of deer. Metroparks is also connected to the 32,500 acre Cuyahoga Valley National Park. Both urban parks taken together encompass more than 50.000 acres of natural woodland with easy access points right in the urban area, one of which entrances is right around the corner from where I live off a busy I-90 exit. Within seconds of entering, one is confronted by the illusion that only the natural world exists.

Image
I can remember the shores of the Hudson somewhat north of Tarrytown, as I grew up in Cornwall-on-Hudson and could walk there. Very special. The rest of your comment almost makes me want to move to Ohio, which produced more presidents (a total of eight, and for reasons I won't go into, it might have included Wilson to make nine), the only two of which showed any promise, however, were two of the ones who were assassinated.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:06 am
Best of the lot. I live a 5-minute walk from arguably the most extensive and natural park ringing any industrial-age American city, William Stinchcomb's stunningly visionary 18,500-acre Cleveland Metroparks "Emerald Necklace" (By contrast its predecessor, Frederick Law Olmsted's spectacular but formal Boston Emerald Necklace park is only about 1,100 acres).
Wow, this caught my eye-we've been to Boston's Emerald Necklace-loved it-we've never been to Cleveland-we've heard their suburban areas are spectacular--never heard of William Stinchcomb. Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:11 am

lennygoran wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:22 pm
never heard of William Stinchcomb.

One time I walked into a clearing in the Emerald Necklace at dusk and ran smack into a wild deer herd, about a dozen including fawns. A buck with a magnificent rack lowered his head and moved aggressively toward me. Guess who won? That was about a 30-min walk/7-min drive from my home which sits practically on I-90. But the same encounter might have occurred 200 years ago in that very spot.


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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:29 am

All this looks nice. There was a time when Central Park was considered unsafe by many--my question is how safe are these Cleveland areas you show. And how safe is downtown Cleveland these days? Regards, Len

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by jserraglio » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:21 am

lennygoran wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:29 am
All this looks nice. There was a time when Central Park was considered unsafe by many--my question is how safe are these Cleveland areas you show. And how safe is downtown Cleveland these days? Regards, Len
We're talking a contiguous urban parkland of 23,000 acres that adjoins a 32,500-acre national park. All told, 55,500 acres and growing. Nothing like NYC's or Boston's vest-pocket urban reservations.

That being said, Cleveland's Emerald Necklace parks are considered very safe. Patrolled regularly, on trail areas and very heavily used. Case in point. Metroparks has just taken over 6 city-owned parks along the Lake Shore that were run down and once regarded as unsafe--now people are flocking to them, because they see all the improvements: new lighting, beaches cleaned every day, lifeguards, new bathhouses, pedestrian walkways connecting to the city proper, etc. Metroparks has street creds here and their levies always pass.

As to your query about safety downtown, I will answer this way: Where after 6 PM would a teen be least likely to come to harm?

a. Jimmy Levine's office
b. Downtown Cleveland
c. Charles Dutoit's Tanglewood dressing room

for me, that's a no brainer. I'd give my kid tickets to any rock concert at Quicken Loans Arena or show in Playhouse Square (the poshest theatre district outside of Broadway) and wish her well.
Last edited by jserraglio on Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Far-right aims to wall Europe off from Muslims

Post by lennygoran » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:13 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:21 am

As to your query about safety in the city proper, here was Boston;s answer
I took a look at driving time from our house to Cleveland-6 and 1/2 hours direct-if we were to combine it with Pittsburgh 7 hours. Tourist sites look interesting! Regards, Len

http://vacationidea.com/destinations/be ... eland.html

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