New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

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Belle
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New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sat May 19, 2018 8:17 pm

This article got me riled up, well and truly. The woman who wrote it consistently refers to this credentialed professor as Mr. Peterson. Exactly the same thing happened in a discussion/debate two nights ago in Toronto. Another female columnist of the NYT referred to Dr. Peterson as Mr. Peterson - calculatedly and deliberately, revealing her contempt. Dr. King was always Dr. King but Professor Peterson was always Mr. Peterson. The man took it with his usual elan and poise. My family, friends and myself were furious. The opponent on the other team (a black Professor, correctly referred by that credential) called Dr. Peterson an "an angry white man" (yep; that's an effective debating strategy) and half the auditorium booed loudly. It was an evening of classic victimology and not a debate at all, as Stephen Fry commented at the end.

Here is the offending female: we were willing him to call her Mrs. Goldberg but he didn't. He's got too much class. I certainly shouted that at her via the computer screen!!

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/ ... nd-jordan/

I think it's a very poor reflection on this news outlet, the NY Times, and its editorial team that a (former Harvard) academic can be stripped of his PhD and Professorship in its articles about him and during a public debate. I suspect it's because of his message; they try to reduce his significance in the way they refer to him Mr. He seems to pose that significant a threat. As he would say, "good luck with that!"

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/styl ... -life.html

Just look at the harm he's doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-faPkcr19ds

John F
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by John F » Sun May 20, 2018 12:04 am

In its news stories the NY Times normally refers to people by their titles, or if none then as Mr. or Ms., even mass murderers. But the article you link to isn't a news story, it's an interview piece which appeared in the Style section - odd.

I actually read the NY Times piece, or parts of it. Peterson (no Prof., no Dr. not even Mr. from me) is identified near the beginning as "a University of Toronto psychology professor." If the author Nellie Bowles thereafter calls him plain Mr., this emphasizes that he is a male - "professor" is a gender-neutral title, as is "doctor." As for showing contempt, the way to do that is to omit all titles, even Mr., as I've done. But if you want to call this usage disrespect, then I share it. This guy is a real piece of work. I'm really surprised that you're rallying to his defense and even using him as a stick to beat the New York Times with.

As for the Globe & Mail piece, that reports a debate in Toronto with which the NY Times had nothing to do. On the actual subject at hand, Ms. Goldberg says, "I actually think that equity, diversity and inclusivity are pretty good ways of describing what I see as progress." I agree; Peterson doesn't. So much the worse for him.
John Francis

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 2:12 am

I don't agree Dr. Peterson is "a piece of work", nor do millions and millions of other people. He's throwing light on important issues to do with suppression of freedom of speech and institutional bullying. If you don't like him, that's fine; it's your constitutional right. But the NY Times has not given him a fair hearing whether it's a news piece or not. The op ed said he 'never smiles'. Clearly that's a straight lie. One brief look at the footage I linked will show him smiling and engaging with people. Stephen Fry himself in the debate I referred to talked about the fear people have of falling foul of Thought Police, saying it was now like The Stazi.

Dr. Peterson recommended reading Orwell's "The Road to Wigan Pier" and I've done that and my physician and friend is re-reading "The Gulag Archipelago" - both books often referenced by the Professor. I must say I concur with the points Dr. Peterson made about Orwell's findings from that book. It so outraged the Left Book Club (which commissioned the work and anticipated what the author's findings would be) that their criticism about Orwell from the late 30s is included as a Forward to the book.

I stand by my comments. There are many high profile intellectuals and commentators who support him including, but not limited to, Dr. Sam Harris and Doctors Bret and Eric Weinstein - three phenomenally intelligent people I admire. And Dr. Steven Pinker has plenty of ideas about PC which he shares with Dr. Peterson. But you won't find this on the MSM - one reason it's in decline, as a consequence of "audience capture".

I didn't expect you to like Dr. Peterson or any conservative, but I always regard you as a fair man. And it sure interests me to learn that the NYT exerts no editorial control over its op eds.

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 4:46 am

In some USA regions, professors are customarily addressed as Mr., in others Dr. or Prof.. Sometimes, the choice of address depends on what the subject herself likes to be called, e.g., Dr. Kissinger, Dr. Brzezinski or Dr. King.

In King's and Peterson's cases, the "offending female" may have simply chosen the form of address she thought was customary, different in each case. Whichever way, no disrespect need be inferred from the choice of Mr..

I seriously doubt that even a national treasure like the New York Times has the power, let alone the inclination, to strip a former Harvard academic of his PhD and Professorship. And it was nice to hear that Dr. Peterson himself, for all his credentials, does not stand upon ceremony.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 6:31 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 4:46 am
Whichever way, no disrespect need be inferred from the choice of Mr..
I agree-I read as much of the article as I could stand-his views repulse me-I have enough listening to Trump for large periods of the day on CNN- Regards, Len :( :( :(

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 6:56 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:31 am
I agree-I read as much of the article as I could stand-his views repulse me-I have enough listening to Trump for large periods of the day on CNN
I think leftist and rightist alike might agree the only thing POTUS and Peterson have in common is the number of letters in their first names. Peterson seems bent on challenging prevailing orthodoxies, nothing repulsive about that, but not something to get my shorts all in a twist about either.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 7:17 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 6:56 am
I think leftist and rightist alike might agree the only thing POTUS and Peterson have in common is the number of letters in their first names. Peterson seems rather harmless to me, not one to get my shorts in a twist about, but then again who am I to judge? In my salad days, I voted for Barry Goldwater.
I'm not sure about that-there is only so much time in each day though and Trump is much more of a concern to me than Peterson--I can pretty well avoid Peterson but Trump and what he's caused in the US-that's more immediate and serious afaiac.

FWIW found things like this for Peterson but I'm sure not gonna give him much more time.

"There is the pugnacious Peterson, a clench-jawed crusader against what he sees as an authoritarian movement masquerading as social-justice activism. That Peterson appears on TV, including on Fox & Friends, President Trump’s preferred morning show, arguing that the left is primarily responsible for increased polarization. That Peterson contends that ideologically corrupt humanities and social-science programs should be starved of students and replaced by something like a Great Books curriculum."

https://www.chronicle.com/article/What- ... out/242256

"Peterson seems to view Trump, by contrast, as a symptom of modern problems, rather than a cause of them. He suggests that Trump’s rise was unfortunate but inevitable—“part of the same process,” he writes, as the rise of “far-right” politicians in Europe. “If men are pushed too hard to feminize,” he warns, “they will become more and more interested in harsh, fascist political ideology.” Peterson sometimes asks audiences to view him as an alternative to political excesses on both sides. During an interview on BBC Radio 5, he said, “I’ve had thousands of letters from people who were tempted by the blandishments of the radical right, who’ve moved towards the reasonable center as a consequence of watching my videos.” But he typically sees liberals, or leftists, or “postmodernists,” as aggressors—which leads him, rather ironically, to frame some of those on the “radical right” as victims. Many of his political stances are built on this type of inversion. Postmodernists, he says, are obsessed with the idea of oppression, and, by waging war on oppressors real and imagined, they become oppressors themselves. Liberals, he says, are always talking about the importance of compassion—and yet “there’s nothing more horrible for children, and developing people, than an excess of compassion.” (This horror, he says, is embodied in the figure of the “Freudian devouring mother”; as an example, he cites Ursula, the sea witch from “The Little Mermaid.”) The danger, it seems, is that those who want to improve Western society may end up destroying it."

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018 ... asculinity

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am

America has seen caped crusaders before, it will again. Our Elmer Gantrys fill a void in the American soul. It's when these hucksters start believing their own hype and cross over into Messianism that they can become dangerous.

Jordan Peterson seems very far from that breed: a conservative? maybe even a libertarian? and part of me responds favorably to that honorable tradition. At any rate, conservatives as such do not threaten me. Far from it. They are worth listening to.

BTW, I recognized Michelle Goldberg from the illustration in the first article as a commentator I hear on TV all the time. She seems to me to be an articulate advocate for progressive views and, as such, also well worth listening to.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 7:47 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:33 am
Our Elmer Gantrys fill a cultural void. ... Peterson is far from that. He is a conservative (maybe a libertarian?) and part of me really likes that breed. At any rate they are harmless.
On Elmer Gantry-can he turn into a Joseph McCarthy-that's dangerous. Is it good for a Gantry to fill a cultural void-Trump gets involved in filling cultural voids, doesn't he? I like parts of being a libertarian too but how harmless is this Peterson-when he comes on FOX is he just giving some sort of intellectual respectability to the Trump base-I wouldn't know and I'm not about to make Fox my station of choice-it's definitely CNN for me--Regards, Len [Go Wolf Go] :lol:

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 8:02 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:47 am
On Elmer Gantry-can he turn into a Joseph McCarthy-that's dangerous. Is it good for a Gantry to fill a cultural void-Trump gets involved in filling cultural voids, doesn't he? I like parts of being a libertarian too but how harmless is this Peterson-when he comes on CNN is he just giving some sort of intellectual respectability to the Trump base-I wouldn't know and I'm not about to make Fox my station of choice-it's definitely CNN for me
Hey, I watch FOX a lot. I feel like I'm doing recon behind enemy lines. My wife sometimes screams at me. But I think the Foxateers are fascinating. The Five! Kimberly the Vamp! Lou-Costello Greg! Bill-Buckley Tucker! Father-Coughlin Sean! Don't you miss Wild-Sam-Elliott Bill?

Seriously, Peterson should not be confused with that crowd.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 8:07 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:02 am
Hey, I watch FOX a lot. I feel like I'm doing recon behind enemy lines.
I've gotten to watch a lot of Fox clips because other stations I do watch are constantly playing the controversial ones--especially now that we have Rudy constantly blabbing! I just loved when that guy Henry went into Pruitt! Regards, Len :lol:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video ... ffers.html

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 8:13 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:07 am
I've gotten to watch a lot of Fox clips because other stations I do watch are constantly playing the controversial ones
You must be missing a lot. That's like substituting the Sparknotes for 500 pages of Catch-22. It's important to see the entire Trump-TV clown act in context. I for one find it highly entertaining, and informative.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 8:21 am

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:13 am
You must be missing a lot.
Could very well be but the clips I see provide me with enough ammo to see just how bad that Propaganda channel really is. The long segment where they had to find a way to stop the rambling Trump was quite incredible! Regards, Len :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lu_Hgw60Ns

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 8:41 am

lennygoran wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 8:21 am
Could very well be but the clips I see provide me with enough ammo to see just how bad that Propaganda channel really is. The long segment where they had to find a way to stop the rambling Trump was quite incredible!
FOX bad? Not so! FOX is so bad, it's good. Quintessential camp. So New York too. Love 'em both!

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 8:54 am

This is an online journal that has no "audience capture" and is an excellent source of heterodoxy for those who want more highbrow discussions. And it has fabulous, informed comments below the main essays. There's a brief clip of Dr. Peterson talking about postmodernism and the thing that stands out is the questions coming from the audiences at his lectures are from very intelligent (mostly young) people. I found that myself when I went to his Sydney presentation; the questions came from highly intelligent, tertiary educated people and they were challenging to hear and understand some of the time. One of these questions was actually about music, as the program had been prefaced with a performance of much of Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier, Bk. 1".

People are turning to social media sites on U-Tube as well because they're tired of 'audience capture' in the MSM and only getting everything through the prism of ideology. Ergo, a false view, or a distorted one at the very least. I'm the only person in my age group that I know who has turned away from the MSM to get my intellectual stimulation and my ideas about the world I inhabit. The MSM largely bores me silly!!

I recommend "Quillette" for the discerning reader who wants a balanced view:

http://quillette.com/2018/05/17/emergen ... servatism/

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 9:07 am

Belle wrote:Can we keep Trump out of a discussion, just for once? I'm bored to death with it.
Lennygoran introduced DJT into the discussion as a point of comparison or contrast to Peterson. I see nothing boring about it.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 9:10 am

I didn't say it was "untoward", merely boring and repetitive. It occupies just about every discussion here!! A lot of us don't care about him at all. I'll be honest, my eyes glaze over most of the time.

jserraglio
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by jserraglio » Sun May 20, 2018 9:13 am

Belle wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:10 am
A lot of us don't care about him at all.
And a lot of others don't care for him at all. I wouldn't have played the Trump card here and said so, but they are entitled to make whatever comparisons they want.
Last edited by jserraglio on Sun May 20, 2018 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 9:15 am

Another heterodox online source, which isn't print and which I watch quite frequently for the big ideas: it's gaining a huge following. I also enjoy other sites like it. The internet is so exciting!! My physician and myself watch these and exchange emails about them, from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJdKr0 ... ZYqLCa9mng

This edition was very interesting. Another wonderful Canadian!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYf6dD4N86E

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 2:32 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:07 am
Belle wrote:Lennygoran[/b] introduced DJT into the discussion as a point of comparison or contrast to Peterson. I see nothing boring about it.
Thanks PC is where I was coming from on the comparison with Trump-the C-16 debate kept coming up as I googled--Trump is not a big fan of much PC-maybe that applies to Peterson as well but I have more to worry about after today's tweets from Trump than anything Peterson may be saying. Regards, Len :(

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 pm

I didn't make the quote you've lifted here; somebody else did. Comparing Dr. Peterson to Trump is preposterous, unless you think the latter has a PhD, is a tenured Professor, a dedicated family man profoundly well read and with a brain the size of a planet - with a solid moral compass to match. Also a christian who has lectured extensively on the bible and its myths. Yep; sounds like Trump.

I vigorously support Dr. Peterson in his objections to government mandated speech codes. What next? It's the slippery slope. And, unlike his critics, Dr. Peterson plays the ball and not the man. Except in the case of PM Trudeau, but politics is different!! The Professor has been subjected to abuse in the NYT and in some public discussions and on British TV (where they've had to have 2 people at a time to tackle him) - all the while remaining calm and poised, except for one outburst on Twitter (which was well justified - I'd have done the same). Most of his supporters agree that the degree of abuse is directly proportional to the fear factor; the frightened dog barks a lot. Having recently read a borrowed copy of "Twelve Rules for Life: An Antidote to Chaos", I've found it tremendously useful (recently, and at my age!) and often very funny; certainly very well written and lucid. "Maps of Meaning" is too arcane for me.

For people who hate Trump you guys certainly demonstrate a fixation - talking about him morning, noon and night. I'm the opposite; when I hate somebody (almost never) I never want to mention that person's name.

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Sun May 20, 2018 7:15 pm

Belle wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 pm
For people who hate Trump you guys certainly demonstrate a fixation - talking about him morning, noon and night. I'm the opposite; when I hate somebody (almost never) I never want to mention that person's name.
We deal with him in really important ways on a daily basis. I hardly ever deal with Peterson.Regards, Len

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Sun May 20, 2018 7:35 pm

I'm sure Trump reads CMG every day!! I'm sure gardening would be a far less stressful pursuit overall! :D

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Mon May 21, 2018 5:03 am

Belle wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 7:35 pm
I'm sure Trump reads CMG every day!! I'm sure gardening would be a far less stressful pursuit overall! :D
Belle the stresses of gardening are out there everyday but the results are worth it-especially with our azaleas, rhodos and peonies having such a great year--otoh the stresses of having Trump as president are much worse and there's no delight at all. Regards, Len :(

Image

Image

Image

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Mon May 21, 2018 11:26 am

Absolutely beautiful. No wonder people take such joy and care with gardening; they're a daily reminder of our humanity and what is really beautiful about nature. Stop worrying about Trump or you'll end up pushing these flowers up instead of caring for them above ground!!! :D

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Mon May 21, 2018 1:48 pm

Belle thanks! Len

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Tue May 22, 2018 5:43 pm

This is also a perfect 'antidote to chaos' and musical artistry of the very highest level; George Shearing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhRpYRYTY0Q

lennygoran
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by lennygoran » Tue May 22, 2018 6:51 pm

Belle wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 5:43 pm
This is also a perfect 'antidote to chaos' and musical artistry of the very highest level; George Shearing.
Belle thanks-I may need stuff like this if the Freedom Caucus gets its way and we get a second special prosecutor. Regards, Len :(

Belle
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Re: New York Times insults Dr. Jordan Peterson

Post by Belle » Wed May 23, 2018 10:55 am

This is a much more fair and balanced article about Professor Peterson:

http://quillette.com/2018/03/22/jordan- ... eals-left/

And another one, far different from what you'll read in the mainstream media:

http://quillette.com/2018/05/22/jordan- ... lure-left/

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