Justice Kennedy Resigns

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lennygoran
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Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:11 pm

I'm so depressed but how can I blame him-he's in his eighties-I retired from my job at 54 years old -I've been retired since 1999. Regards, Len :( :( :( :( :(

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm

Interesting times ahead!! Why do these geriatrics cling on so long to their jobs? Haven't they got meaningful lives to live in retirement? I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing than going to work.

jbuck919
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jbuck919 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:08 am

Belle wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Interesting times ahead!! Why do these geriatrics cling on so long to their jobs? Haven't they got meaningful lives to live in retirement? I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing than going to work.
You and Len and I would be going to work. That's not what a Supreme Court justice does.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:14 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:08 am
Belle wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Interesting times ahead!! Why do these geriatrics cling on so long to their jobs? Haven't they got meaningful lives to live in retirement? I can think of a million things I'd rather be doing than going to work.
You and Len and I would be going to work. That's not what a Supreme Court justice does.
Obviously my idea of going to work and yours are different. Anything requiring the payment of money for services is work. Are you saying these judges are doing theirs pro bono?

lennygoran
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:00 am

Belle wrote:
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:16 pm
Interesting times ahead!! Why do these geriatrics cling on so long to their jobs?
Belle not interesting-depressing-and let's not forget Breyer is 79 and Ginsburg is 85--this could make a bad situation even worse. BTW in case you didn't know Ginsburg is quite an opera buff! Regards, Len :( :( :(

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:03 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 5:14 am
Are you saying these judges are doing theirs pro bono?
Belle let's not confuse them with Mr Pro Bono, Trump's jailed former campaign manager Paul Manafort! Regards, Len [fleeing] :lol:

John F
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by John F » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:58 am

It should be no surprise that those who love their work keep doing it as long as they can. Appointments to the Supreme Court are for life, and many justices take that literally. Why shouldn't they?

But the Court has become so political that its members now only retire, if at all, when a president of their persuasion is in office to appoint their successors. Kennedy clearly wants his successor to be a conservative, and while the Republicans may try to push through confirmation of his successor before the fall elections, Kennedy didn't give them much time. All the more important that the Democrats take back the Senate in November.
John Francis

jserraglio
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:46 am

I agree about Kennedy's probable motive. Known to want to retire, Kennedy was not going to delay his retirement another year and risk nullification of the Gorsuch coup in the event that a blue wave hands a filibusterless Senate over to the "Democrat Party" in November. His retirement then could result in an unfilled seat on the Court, b/c the Dems would be unlikely to confirm any Trump nominee till after the 2020 election. Kennedy was after all a Reagan appointee and has been very mainstream conservative. As an institutionalist, too, he also would not want to see a 4-4 stalemate on the Court if the Dems won the Senate and he then retired.

Mitch McConnell has the votes and cannot be filibustered, so he has six months between now and late January 2019 to confirm a replacement. He just has to be sure that Trump doesn't go rogue and nominate Stephen Miller.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:19 am

On the list, one Joan Larsen — young, blonde, attractive and on the record as a staunch defender of presidential powers. In the event Trump plans a showdown with Mueller in the courts, she fits the bill nicely.

Our Mr. Trump probably slept like a baby last night, knowing he now has the ultimate power to call out Mueller or even fire Rosenstein. Who will now dare challenge him, with both Congress and the Court in his corner?
Mother Jones wrote:Joan Larsen (age 49), 6th Circuit Court of Appeals: Larsen had been on the Michigan Supreme Court for barely more than a year when Trump nominated her to the 6th Circuit. A darling of the conservative Federalist Society and a former clerk for Scalia, Larsen was opposed in her bid for the 6th Circuit by civil rights groups, which saw in her writings a disturbing level of support for executive power. In 1994, she co-authored a law review article in which she stressed the need to “protect the President, and the national constituency which he represents, from Congress, the most dangerous (and powerful) branch of government.”

Like many of Trump’s shortlisters, Larsen worked in the Justice Department under President George W. Bush. After leaving the administration, she became a law professor at the University of Michigan. In 2006, Larsen wrote an op-ed in the Detroit News defending Bush’s extensive use of signing statements—legal documents in which Bush asserted his power to simply ignore parts of laws that he was signing that he didn’t agree with. Larsen wrote, “If circumstances arose in which the law would prevent him from protecting the nation, he would choose the nation over the statute.” Such fierce support of presidential power would obviously appeal to Trump, who has claimed that he has the power to pardon himself should he be indicted. The Supreme Court could end up deciding whether he’s right, in which case Larson could be a helpful ally.

lennygoran
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 2:52 pm

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:58 am
All the more important that the Democrats take back the Senate in November.
I fear it may be too late by then. Regards, Len :( :( :(

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:00 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 9:46 am
Kennedy was after all a Reagan appointee and has been very mainstream conservative.
Yeah, Citizens United. Regards, Len

Image

lennygoran
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:05 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:19 am
Our Mr. Trump probably slept like a baby last night, knowing he now has the ultimate power to call out Mueller or even fire Rosenstein. Who will now dare challenge him, with both Congress and the Court in his corner?
I watched today's Judiciary Hearing with Wray and Rosenstein--just disgusting. Then there were Trump's tweets-- one lie, one smear after another-well at least today we found out Putin and Russia didn't meddle in the 2016 election. Regards, Len :x

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:17 pm

John F wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:58 am
It should be no surprise that those who love their work keep doing it as long as they can. Appointments to the Supreme Court are for life, and many justices take that literally. Why shouldn't they?

But the Court has become so political that its members now only retire, if at all, when a president of their persuasion is in office to appoint their successors. Kennedy clearly wants his successor to be a conservative, and while the Republicans may try to push through confirmation of his successor before the fall elections, Kennedy didn't give them much time. All the more important that the Democrats take back the Senate in November.
I'm not denying that people should choose whether or not to continue working; I just say it's a shame that they can't smell the roses and enjoy some kind of retirement in believing that work is the be all and end all. Was it Voltaire who said (paraphrasing) that nobody went to his deathbed wishing they'd worked more!! And there's the matter of cognitive impairment as we age significantly. Perhaps this judge feels that his cognitive skills aren't up to the task and that may be why he's resigned at this time. Cynics will not be convinced anyway. I just think the notion of a 'job for life' is flawed on a few levels.

Re politicization of the Supreme Court; we have the same situation here with our High Court. A game that both sides have played and which will be continue being played. Once a precedent has been set by the highest lawmakers in the land then, I think, the peoples' faith in the integrity of those institutions is proportionally reduced. That's how I feel about it. I do not at all trust our High Court and neither do many millions of Australians. This isn't something new either.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:30 pm

Few of the great writers ever worked harder than Voltaire, whose collected works in its Oxford edition, begun in 1968. will run to nearly two hundred volumes after 50 years when completed this year.
About work Voltaire in Candide wrote:Work preserves us from three great evils -- boredom, vice, and poverty.

****************************************************

“Neither need you tell me,” said Candide, “that we must take care of our garden.”

“You are in the right,” said Pangloss; “for when man was put into the garden of Eden it was with an intent to dress it & this proves that man was not born to be idle.”

“Work then without disputing,” said Martin; “it is the only way to render life supportable.”

The little society, one and all, entered into this laudable design; and set themselves to exert their different talents.

The little piece of ground yielded them a plentiful crop. Cunegunde indeed was very ugly, but she became an excellent hand at pastrywork; Pacquette embroidered; the old woman had the care of the linen. There was none, down to Brother Giroflée, but did some work; he was a very good carpenter, and became an honest man.

Pangloss used now and then to say to Candide, “There is a concatenation of all events in the best of possible worlds; for, in short, had you not been kicked out of a fine castle for the love of Miss Cunegund; had you not been put into the Inquisition; had you not travelled over America on foot; had you not run the baron through the body; and had you not lost all your sheep, which you brought from the good country of El Dorado, you would not have been here to eat preserved citrons and pistachio nuts.”

“Excellently observed,” answered Candide; “but let us go work in our garden.”
Last edited by jserraglio on Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:49 pm

Exceptional human beings the majority of us certainly are not!! Thank god I was never cursed with the energy and impulse to work until I dropped. I used to joke with students about people who climbed Mt. Everest and/or undertook feats of daring and achievement - often risking their lives:

"I never was cursed with the energy to do those kinds of things; just going outside to mow the lawn fills me with horrors as to the necessary physical exertions"!!

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:30 pm
“Neither need you tell me,” said Candide, “that we must take care of our garden.”“Excellently observed,” answered Candide; “but let us go work in our garden.”
[/quote]

That can't be right-forget their garden--let them all come work in my garden-I did a lot of spraying for weeds today and it was damn hot. Regards, Len :(

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:15 pm

Belle wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:49 pm
just going outside to mow the lawn fills me with horrors as to the necessary physical exertions"!!
Belle that's the least of it! Regards, Len :lol:

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:04 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:13 pm
That can't be right-forget their garden--let them all come work in my garden-I did a lot of spraying for weeds today and it was damn hot.
I believe Voltaire was speaking metaphorically. Candide is one of the gardens he created, Letters on the English was another, and both are masterpieces of formal design.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:30 pm

NYT — WASHINGTON — President Trump singled him out for praise even while attacking other members of the Supreme Court. The White House nominated people close to him to important judicial posts. And members of the Trump family forged personal connections.

Their goal was to assure Justice Anthony M. Kennedy that his judicial legacy would be in good hands should he step down at the end of the court’s term that ended this week, as he was rumored to be considering. Allies of the White House were more blunt, warning the 81-year-old justice that time was of the essence. There was no telling, they said, what would happen if Democrats gained control of the Senate after the November elections and had the power to block the president’s choice as his successor.

There were no direct efforts to pressure or lobby Justice Kennedy to announce his resignation on Wednesday, and it was hardly the first time a president had done his best to create a court opening. “In the past half-century, presidents have repeatedly been dying to take advantage of timely vacancies,” said Laura Kalman, a historian at the University of California, Santa Barbara.

But in subtle and not so subtle ways, the White House waged a quiet campaign to ensure that Mr. Trump had a second opportunity in his administration’s first 18 months to fulfill one of his most important campaign promises to his conservative followers — that he would change the complexion and direction of the Supreme Court.
Iowa Senator Charles E. Grassley wrote:My message to any one of the nine Supreme Court justices was, ‘If you’re thinking about quitting this year, do it yesterday.’
When Mr. Trump took office last year, he already had a Supreme Court vacancy to fill, the one created by the 2016 death of Justice Antonin Scalia. But Mr. Trump dearly wanted a second vacancy, one that could transform the court for a generation or more. So he used the first opening to help create the second one. He picked Justice Neil M. Gorsuch, who had served as a law clerk to Justice Kennedy, to fill Justice Scalia’s seat.

And when Justice Gorsuch took the judicial oath in April 2017 at a Rose Garden ceremony, Justice Kennedy administered it — after Mr. Trump first praised the older justice as “a great man of outstanding accomplishment.”

“Throughout his nearly 30 years on the Supreme Court,” Mr. Trump said, “Justice Kennedy has been praised by all for his dedicated and dignified service.”

That was an overstatement. Justice Kennedy is reviled by many of Mr. Trump’s supporters for voting to uphold access to abortion, limit the death penalty and expand gay rights. Conservatives have called for his impeachment. James C. Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family, once called Justice Kennedy “the most dangerous man in America.”

Mr. Trump himself said he wanted to appoint justices who would overrule Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision establishing a constitutional right to abortion. Justice Kennedy has voted to reaffirm Roe’s core holding. And Mr. Trump has not hesitated to criticize far more conservative members of the Supreme Court, notably Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr.

“Justice Roberts turned out to be an absolute disaster, he turned out to be an absolute disaster because he gave us Obamacare,” Mr. Trump said in 2016, presumably referring to Chief Justice Roberts’s votes to sustain President Barack Obama’s health care law.

There is reason to think, then, that Mr. Trump’s praise of Justice Kennedy was strategic.
Then, after Justice Gorsuch’s nomination was announced, a White House official singled out two candidates for the next Supreme Court vacancy: Judge Brett M. Kavanaugh of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit and Judge Raymond M. Kethledge of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit, in Cincinnati.

The two judges had something in common: They had both clerked for Justice Kennedy.
In the meantime, as the White House turned to stocking the lower courts, it did not overlook Justice Kennedy’s clerks. Mr. Trump nominated three of them to federal appeals courts: Judges Stephanos Bibas and Michael Scudder, both of whom have been confirmed, and Eric Murphy, the Ohio solicitor general, whom Mr. Trump nominated to the Sixth Circuit this month.

One person who knows both men remarked on the affinity between Mr. Trump and Justice Kennedy, which is not obvious at first glance. Justice Kennedy is bookish and abstract, while Mr. Trump is earthy and direct.

But they had a connection, one Mr. Trump was quick to note in the moments after his first address to Congress in February 2017. As he made his way out of the chamber, Mr. Trump paused to chat with the justice.

“Say hello to your boy,” Mr. Trump said. “Special guy.”

Mr. Trump was apparently referring to Justice Kennedy’s son, Justin. The younger Mr. Kennedy spent more than a decade at Deutsche Bank, eventually rising to become the bank’s global head of real estate capital markets, and he worked closely with Mr. Trump when he was a real estate developer, according to two people with knowledge of his role.

During Mr. Kennedy’s tenure, Deutsche Bank became Mr. Trump’s most important lender, dispensing well over $1 billion in loans to him for the renovation and construction of skyscrapers in New York and Chicago at a time other mainstream banks were wary of doing business with him because of his troubled business history.

About a week before the presidential address, Ivanka Trump had paid a visit to the Supreme Court as a guest of Justice Kennedy. The two had met at a lunch after the inauguration, and Ms. Trump brought along her daughter, Arabella Kushner. Occupying seats reserved for special guests, they saw the justices announce several decisions and hear an oral argument.

Ms. Trump tweeted about the visit and posted a photo. “Arabella & me at the Supreme Court today,” she wrote. “I’m grateful for the opportunity to teach her about the judicial system in our country firsthand.”

If the overtures to Justice Kennedy from the White House were subtle, the warnings from its allies were blunt. Last month, Senator Charles E. Grassley of Iowa, the Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, went on Hugh Hewitt’s radio program to issue an urgent plea.

“My message to any one of the nine Supreme Court justices,” he said, was, “‘If you’re thinking about quitting this year, do it yesterday.’”

Mr. Grassley said speed was of the essence in light of the midterm elections in November. “If we have a Democrat Senate,” he said, “you’re never going to get the kind of people that are strict constructionists.”

Intermediaries pressed the point with Justice Kennedy privately, telling him that Donald F. McGahn II, Mr. Trump’s White House counsel, would in all probability leave after the midterms. Mr. McGahn has been a key architect Mr. Trump’s successful efforts to appoint wave after wave of conservative judges, they said, and his absence would complicate a Supreme Court confirmation.

There is nothing particularly unusual in urging older justices to retire for partisan reasons. During the Obama administration, prominent liberals called for Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg to retire so that Mr. Obama could name her successor.

Justice Kennedy waited until the last day of the term to announce his retirement. The move disappointed liberals who had hoped that he would not want Mr. Trump to name his successor. But the justice, saying he wanted to spend more time with his family, betrayed no hesitation.

His departure is a triumph for Mr. Trump, who has taken particular satisfaction in his judicial appointments. Naming justices and judges is easier than forging legislative compromises, and Mr. Trump understands that his judicial appointments represent a legacy that will long outlast his presidency.

Replacing Justice Scalia with another conservative did not alter the basic ideological balance of the court. But replacing Justice Kennedy, who for decades held the decisive vote in many of the court’s closely divided cases, would give Mr. Trump the opportunity to move the court sharply to the right.

Justice Kennedy visited the White House on Wednesday to tell Mr. Trump of his retirement and to deliver a letter setting out the details. Its warm opening words — “My dear Mr. President” — acknowledged a cordial relationship between the two men, as well as the success of the White House’s strategy.

Adam Liptak reported from Washington, and Maggie Haberman from New York. Charlie Savage contributed reporting from Washington, and David Enrich from New York.

lennygoran
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by lennygoran » Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:44 am

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:04 pm
Candide is one of the gardens he created, Letters on the English was another, and both are masterpieces of formal design.
Joseph we saw Candide last year at NYCO-it was superb!!! Regards, Len

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by John F » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:06 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:17 pm
I'm not denying that people should choose whether or not to continue working; I just say it's a shame that they can't smell the roses and enjoy some kind of retirement in believing that work is the be all and end all.
Many people are glad to put their jobs behind them, if they can afford to. But if you really love your work, if you find it rewarding and fulfilling, you smell the roses every day.

Besides, it's not as if the Supreme Court justices are cloistered in that marble hall. Ruth Bader Ginsburg has often gone to the opera and once, I believe, even appeared as a supernumerary. And her companion on many of those evenings, until he died, was Justice Scalia, politically a complete opposite to Ginsburg, but they enjoyed each others' company. There's no reason to believe that they and their colleagues would be happier in retirement than they are now.

Speaking for myself, after I retired for the first time, after a couple of years of working on various projects of my own, I leapt at the opportunity to go back to work, this time at an organization sponsored by the Metropolitan Opera. When the Met closed it down, and I was invited to work as a volunteer at Lincoln Center, I didn't hesitate for a moment, and kept on for 19 years until LC discontinued that program. Whereupon I immediately crossed the street to the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts where I have now been working as a volunteer for six years, and I've no plans to "retire."

If you really care about the work you're doing and find it both important and enjoyable, you wouldn't welcome suggestions from well-meaning bystanders that you really ought to retire and "smell the roses." If the work is also of great national importance, you might suspect that such suggestions have an ulterior motive that has nothing to do with your personal happiness and well-being. :mrgreen:
John Francis

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:32 am

It's of no political significance to me one way or another what any American judge does!!

I take your point about enjoying work and it has been said many times before by others that men find their sense of self much more in work than women do - that women are flexible and are more interested in people than things such as work. I think that's very true.

When my father retired at 58 as an executive of a major steel manufacturing corporation he told me he felt 'wasted' for the first couple of years. After that and before my mother died he cared for her until the end and we were glad he had retired, but at that time (1984) he also had spent the last two years learning computer programming (Cobol, I think it was called) and became extremely adept at the computer in ways his contemporaries were not. This kept him engaged intellectually since he created his own computer programs for specific tasks and by now was over 60 - and his talents were in demand. He used to attend 'reunions' occasionally with the other executive staff and he once observed to me that he felt sorry for them because all they could do was talk about the past and the good old days. My father had moved on, learned complex computer programs, played the share market and made a lot of money and also was vitally interested in everything which went on around him. And one could hardly say that he didn't have a demanding job which garnered a lot of respect from many thousands of employees!! He found a productive and enjoyable life after work - intellectual at that. He had his mental facilities almost completely intact (drugs had an effect) when he died of cancer in 2004 at the age of 80. When we went to dispose of his possessions I was amazed at the vast number of technical computer programming books he had literally stacked up on his bookshelf. These ended up as landfill since the technology kept changing so quickly, as we know. Oh, I forgot; he also went into an agricultural business with myself and my husband after his retirement and he had cattle on his property to which he had assigned names and would often 'talk' to them in the paddock.

He read widely on economic matters and would talk to his four daughters about the state of the world. I always had the feeling he thought he was never going to die - that something would 'turn up' - and even a few weeks before his death he told me he was going to buy a Dell computer. And he was fortunate to have at least one good friend left from the last 30 or so years who also had a mind like a steel trap and who had a very deep love and appreciation for classical music.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:36 am

Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:32 am
It has been said many times before by others that men find their sense of self much more in work than women do - that women are flexible and are more interested in people than things such as work. I think that's very true.
Besides carrying a full workload plus speaking engagements, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg at age 85 apparently relishes her matriarchal role of disputing the callow opinions of testosterone-laced conservative colleagues young enough to be her grandsons.

Like Ronald Reagan with Senator Walter Mondale, Ginsberg does not hold the relative youth and inexperience of Justices Roberts, Alito and Gorsuch against them but indulgently tries to wean these lads off their sincerely held but misguided judicial philosophy.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by John F » Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:29 am

Belle wrote:I take your point about enjoying work and it has been said many times before by others that men find their sense of self much more in work than women do - that women are flexible and are more interested in people than things such as work. I think that's very true.
If it were so, then I'd expect there to be more men than women working at the library as volunteers. But 26 of the 31 volunteers are women, including all three of the coordinators since I've been there. The gender imbalance was about the same at Lincoln Center Inc. where I volunteered before going to the library; again, our coordinator was a woman. Several of them have volunteered at other places as well, such as art museums and hospitals. Since there is no pay or power or prestige in volunteering, it must be the work itself - as an alternative to socializing or idleness in retirement - that these women enjoy, or "find their sense of self" in, If I understand what you mean by that.

Seems to me it depends on the nature of the work, and their success in it, that govern people's decisions whether to retire or not. Successful actors seem rarely to retire unless forced to by ill health. Presently on Broadway, Glenda Jackson (age 82) and Diana Rigg (age 79) are acting in hit shows. Jackson has just won this year's Tony award as best actress. On the other hand, I don't suppose there are many steelworkers or coal miners of either sex who wouldn't retire as soon as they can afford to.
John Francis

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:18 am

If in fact women retire earlier than men, that may be b/c on average women still are relegated to less powerful, less satisfying and lower paying jobs than men and have compensated by becoming more oriented to people than to work.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:54 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:18 am
If in fact women retire earlier than men, that may be b/c on average women still are relegated to less powerful, less satisfying and lower paying jobs than men and have compensated by becoming more oriented to people than to work.
You need to look at the proven studies on this as discussed by Prof. Jordan Peterson - who has written extensively on this and who has literally thousands of citations on the matter. The 'science' of this is quite settled. Women are more interested by temperament in people and men, by temperament, in things. There will be some variability in this, but overall the studies have demonstrated my previous sentence. In Scandinavian countries where egalitarianism has been established (as much as that is possible) the differences between men and women in this regard have only widened.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:56 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:36 am
Belle wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:32 am
It has been said many times before by others that men find their sense of self much more in work than women do - that women are flexible and are more interested in people than things such as work. I think that's very true.
Besides carrying a full workload plus speaking engagements, Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsberg at age 85 apparently relishes her matriarchal role of disputing the callow opinions of testosterone-laced conservative colleagues young enough to be her grandsons.

Like Ronald Reagan with Senator Walter Mondale, Ginsberg does not hold the relative youth and inexperience of Justices Roberts, Alito and Gorsuch against them but indulgently tries to wean these lads off their sincerely held but misguided judicial philosophy.
I know what you mean; we have plenty of callow opinions from both sexes in Australian politics and they sure can shout. Many of them were only 12 several years earlier.

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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:59 pm

John F wrote:
Fri Jun 29, 2018 9:29 am
Belle wrote:I take your point about enjoying work and it has been said many times before by others that men find their sense of self much more in work than women do - that women are flexible and are more interested in people than things such as work. I think that's very true.
If it were so, then I'd expect there to be more men than women working at the library as volunteers. But 26 of the 31 volunteers are women, including all three of the coordinators since I've been there. The gender imbalance was about the same at Lincoln Center Inc. where I volunteered before going to the library; again, our coordinator was a woman. Several of them have volunteered at other places as well, such as art museums and hospitals. Since there is no pay or power or prestige in volunteering, it must be the work itself - as an alternative to socializing or idleness in retirement - that these women enjoy, or "find their sense of self" in, If I understand what you mean by that.

Seems to me it depends on the nature of the work, and their success in it, that govern people's decisions whether to retire or not. Successful actors seem rarely to retire unless forced to by ill health. Presently on Broadway, Glenda Jackson (age 82) and Diana Rigg (age 79) are acting in hit shows. Jackson has just won this year's Tony award as best actress. On the other hand, I don't suppose there are many steelworkers or coal miners of either sex who wouldn't retire as soon as they can afford to.
Women tend to volunteer more than men in the caring professions and the humanities. I would expect that to be so. And, yes, it depends on the work. If you're paid $M10 to be in a film which requires 3 months' work why wouldn't you? My argument has always been that people are more complex and multi-variant in temperament and interest than the occupations they inhabit.

John F
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by John F » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:57 am

Belle wrote:My argument has always been that people are more complex and multi-variant in temperament and interest than the occupations they inhabit.
I certainly agree, and I'd add, than merely whether they're male or female.

Again and again you come back to Jordan Peterson; he's the one authority you refer to constantly. Since I've not only read nothing by him but never heard of him until you started mentioning him, his name doesn't sway me. That may be because I don't read much in psychology or sociology. Instead, as you've seen in this thread, I rely more on my knowledge and experience of life, such as it is, and when these disagree with theory, so much the worse for theory. :D
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Sat Jun 30, 2018 7:18 pm

John F wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:57 am
Belle wrote:My argument has always been that people are more complex and multi-variant in temperament and interest than the occupations they inhabit.
I certainly agree, and I'd add, than merely whether they're male or female.

Again and again you come back to Jordan Peterson; he's the one authority you refer to constantly. Since I've not only read nothing by him but never heard of him until you started mentioning him, his name doesn't sway me. That may be because I don't read much in psychology or sociology. Instead, as you've seen in this thread, I rely more on my knowledge and experience of life, such as it is, and when these disagree with theory, so much the worse for theory. :D
Funny that I remember making much the same comment to you myself some years back with regard to music!! I come back to Dr. Peterson because I've listened to tens and tens of hours of his lectures and have read at least one of his books, but mostly because he's intensely well read and across most issues. And I've just posted a link to "The Rubin Report" from the smaller core group of the Intellectual Dark Web. I find their ideas absolutely compelling and I'm sure you would enjoy it too. I find that one has to continually evolve one's thinking and ideas to remain intellectually vigorous and enjoy life to the full. Happily my husband is on the journey with me! And I try not to become 'rusted on' in my beliefs - thanks largely to the work of the aforesaid IDW. Also, the interview with Barrie Weiss and Jordan Peterson (on U-Tube) might interest you too. The issues are waaaay beyond politics (in which Dr. Peterson takes a minimal interest).

Dr. Peterson isn't the only public intellectual whom I admire; I was also a great fan of the late Christopher Hitchens (having read 2 books of his), I enjoy Doctors Pinker, Harris, Haidt and many others including Prof. Niall Ferguson - and I'm onto a third book written by him.

Honestly, John, you just don't get that level of discussion in the mainstream media and, apart from one or two exceptions, I've just tuned off and out.

John F
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by John F » Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:03 am

From what I've read about Peterson, mainly in the Wikipedia article, I don't believe I would get much out of him. His preoccupation with political correctness (he's against it), which he somehow associates with Marxism, :roll: isn't encouraging; it puts him in the same camp, if not on the same level, as our current president. With quite a few books waiting for me that I want to read, Peterson doesn't make the cut.
Belle wrote:Funny that I remember making much the same comment to you myself some years back with regard to music!!
What comment would that be? I don't remember anything like what I've just written here.
John Francis

Belle
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Re: Justice Kennedy Resigns

Post by Belle » Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:01 pm

The comment to which I referred was this one:

I rely more on my knowledge and experience of life. I remember saying that to you regarding what critics say about music and appreciation of music and the arts in general - that we can consume critical opinion but, in the final analysis, we will bring our own intuitive understanding to bear in formulating our own responses. That critics are a guide and not ends in themselves.


There is SO much more to Dr. Peterson than anything somebody has glibly written on Wiki about him. But he'll always take you out of your zone of comfort; ergo, he's not for everybody. In fact, none of the intellectuals in the IDW are interested hegemony or conformity. They're radicals, for the most, who think outside the square. But they (Dr. Peterson in particular) are gaining huge international audiences. This week Prof. Peterson will speak to a crowd of 20,000 people in London at one venue alone. That barely touches his reach internationally which is now in the tens of millions. And growing. We were at his Sydney talk, along with 2,000 others, in March and he was funny, intelligent, patient, engaging and he treated the audience as a group of intelligent people - never condescending nor patronizing for a second. And poised at all times.

I wish I was in NYC to go to this!! The IDW in full swing and it will be hugely supported. Imagine: a conference on philosophical issues gaining HUGE audiences!!

https://www.pangburnphilosophy.com/dayofreflection

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