Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

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maestrob
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Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Wed Jan 13, 2021 2:58 pm

Donald Trump is not an aberration but a blueprint.

By Lisa McGirr
Dr. McGirr is a historian and the author of “Suburban Warriors: The Origins of the New American Right.”

Jan. 13, 2021, 5:00 a.m. ET

The appalling siege of the U.S. Capitol by pro-Trump insurrectionists, on the heels of their upset defeat in two Georgia Senate races the previous night, will require soul searching among Republicans about the direction of their party. Republicans will certainly seek to pivot from the riot, but the nativism, extreme polarization, truth-bashing, white nationalism and anti-democratic policies that we tend to identify with President Trump are likely to remain a hallmark of the Republican playbook into the future. These qualities will outlive Mr. Trump’s presidency because they predate it: Republicans have been fueling the conditions that enabled Mr. Trump’s rise since the 1980s.

A growing Southern and Western evangelical base pushed the party to replace its big-tent, bipartisan and moderate Republicanism of the mid-20th century with a more conservative version. Under President Dwight Eisenhower, the party had made peace with New Deal social provisioning and backed large-scale federal spending on infrastructure and education. Even as late as the 1970s, President Richard Nixon passed legislation expanding federal regulatory agencies. Yet when Ronald Reagan moved into the White house in 1981, the Republicans sharply slashed government regulations. They cut taxes for the wealthy and oversaw a hollowing out of the American welfare state. At the same time, the party shored up its heavily evangelical base with tough-on-crime policies, anti-abortion rhetoric and coded racist attacks on “welfare queens.”

But the past 40 years of Republican-led (but bipartisan) neoliberalism left large segments of the party’s social base, like many other Americans, with declining standards of living and worse off economically. Economic crisis and the browning of America opened new avenues for calculating politicians to exploit white cultural resentments for political gain: Isolationism, nativism, racism, even anti-Semitism roared back. Long part of the mix of American conservatism, these ideas had been increasingly sidelined during America’s midcentury golden age of the 1950s and 1960s.


But by the 1990s, greater numbers of the Republican Party’s grass-roots activists blamed declining standards of living not on the free market individualism they believed in almost religiously, but on job-taking immigrants and the shadowy machinations of the global elite. Such scapegoating is strikingly reminiscent of the radio priest Charles Coughlin’s attacks on the Rothschilds and “money-changers” during the Great Depression.

Mr. Trump championed ideas that had been bubbling up among the Republican grass roots since the late 20th century. His great political talent has been to see the extent of these resentments and rhetorically, and to some extent politically, speak to those concerns. His hold on his supporters is not just a cult of personality but grounded in a set of deeply rooted and increasingly widespread ideas within the Republican Party: ending birthright citizenship for immigrants, militarizing the border, disenfranchising Americans under the guise of protecting the integrity of the ballot, favoring an isolationist nationalism.

To put the full power of the nation’s chief executive behind such proposals was uniquely Trumpian, but the animating ideas have precedent in Republican politics. In Orange County, Calif., Republicans had already in 1988 stationed uniformed guards outside polling stations when rumors circulated that Democrats were planning to bus “aliens” to the voting precincts. They carried signs in English and Spanish warning “Non-Citizens Can’t Vote.” Some intimidated immigrant voters by writing down their license plate numbers. Republican nativists warned of the “takeover of America.” Their “greatest fear,” according to one prominent Republican activist, was that “illegal aliens will stuff the ballot boxes.” Mr. Trump’s genius was to recognize the opportunity to mobilize such anti-democratic resentments around himself. By articulating a right-wing America First populism already deeply rooted in many circles of the Republican Party, Mr. Trump turned himself into the messiah for MAGA-land. He was an innovator.

Yet party elites struck a Faustian bargain to secure tax cuts for wealthy Americans, business-friendly deregulation and conservative court picks. They understood that in a world of economic anxiety, disempowerment of the middle class and colossal income inequality, such policies would deliver majorities. The successful combination is most likely to encourage many Republicans to continue to embrace it. It lets them mobilize, at least in some places and at least for now, a majority of voters. With the party’s elite disinclined to grapple with extreme wealth inequalities and the increasing immiseration and insecurity of the American middle and working classes, the only way to win votes may be to pander to cultural resentment.

Mr. Trump’s style of personalistic authoritarian populism is his alone. It is unfamiliar to most American politicians, and the messianic loyalty he commands among his most martial followers is unlikely to be replicated by those within the party who seek to pick up his mantle. But Mr. Trump’s Republicanism, despite his belief that everything is about him, has always been about more than that. He has forged what is likely to be the Republican blueprint for the future, absent his most unhinged behavior. Without major party reset, the heirs apparent to Trumpism, probably with the party elite’s blessing, will continue to pander to visceral cultural resentments, champion outsider status, war against the very government they are part of and in the process continue to weaken our already fragile democracy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/opin ... e=Homepage

Belle
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Belle » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am

More measured, intelligent and reasonable commentary from the objective New York Times!! This newspaper is forever playing to the cheap seats in the gallery, with all the aplomb and sophistication of Pravda.

Where's that unity thing? We're all desperately looking for it and it's nowhere to be found. Having established circa half of the American voting public as 'the enemy' and those in Trump's retinue as behaving like the Third Reich (a shocking insult to those millions of people who suffered unendurable pain/death from all that, and the American lives lost defending liberty!), these throw away insults only demonstrate that the antagonists of Trump are every bit as bad as he is. They are his mirror image and it's the saddest of days. Because America is now a totally discredited nation full of partisan rage - all of it fuelled by a craven media.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/01/1 ... of-speech/

Thank God I'm not an American. And I hope that if and when we in Australia move to a republic it's not the type which sees any person at all putting his/her hand up for the Presidency. That just hasn't worked this time - not least because one side of politics didn't want it to work. Your kind of republic lends itself to revolutions. The runs are on that board.

jserraglio
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:22 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am
America is now a totally discredited nation full of partisan rage - all of it fuelled by a craven media.

Thank God I'm not an American. And I hope that if and when we in Australia move to a republic it's not the type which sees any person at all putting his/her hand up for the Presidency . . . . Your kind of republic lends itself to revolutions.
Oscar Wilde:
CECILY. . . I think you had better wait till Uncle Jack arrives. I know he wants to speak to you about your emigrating.
ALGERNON. About my what?
CECILY. Your emigrating. He has gone up to buy your outfit.
ALGERNON. I certainly wouldn't let Jack buy my outfit. He has no taste in neckties at all.
CECILY. I don't think you will require neckties. Uncle Jack is sending you to Australia.
ALGERNON. Australia! I'd sooner die.
CECILY. Well, he said at dinner on Wednesday night, that you would have to choose between this world, the next world, and Australia.
ALGERNON. Oh, well! The accounts I have received of Australia and the next world, are not particularly encouraging. This world is good enough for me . . . .

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:02 am

Belle wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am
More measured, intelligent and reasonable commentary from the objective New York Times!! This newspaper is forever playing to the cheap seats in the gallery, with all the aplomb and sophistication of Pravda.

Where's that unity thing? We're all desperately looking for it and it's nowhere to be found. Having established circa half of the American voting public as 'the enemy' and those in Trump's retinue as behaving like the Third Reich (a shocking insult to those millions of people who suffered unendurable pain/death from all that, and the American lives lost defending liberty!), these throw away insults only demonstrate that the antagonists of Trump are every bit as bad as he is. They are his mirror image and it's the saddest of days. Because America is now a totally discredited nation full of partisan rage - all of it fuelled by a craven media.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/01/1 ... of-speech/

Thank God I'm not an American. And I hope that if and when we in Australia move to a republic it's not the type which sees any person at all putting his/her hand up for the Presidency. That just hasn't worked this time - not least because one side of politics didn't want it to work. Your kind of republic lends itself to revolutions. The runs are on that board.
You're desperately looking for that unity thing? I'll take some convincing about that, Belle. You only ever post your paranoid and obsessive hatred of the left which, to you, is anyone more progressive than Rush Limbaugh. That along with trite and lazy condemnation of the media, including some of the most impressive and careful media organisations in the world. I don't recall much urging for unity from you.

As for Brendan O'Neill - what a contemptible Trump toady. How self-serving and dishonest to say Trump was impeached because some people found his views offensive. That is not true, Belle, and in your heart of hearts you know it.

And when you say one side of politics didn't want it to work, you are right - your side. The vicious insurrectionists and thugs who deliberately and in full knowledge tried to thwart the American Constitution and democratic process. It beggars belief that you can support nearly 150 Republican congressmen and women who backed the Trump Big Lie, knowing it to be a lie. Actually, knowing you, it doesn't beggar belief - but it should.

jserraglio
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:52 am

barney wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:02 am
As for Brendan O'Neill - what a contemptible Trump toady. How self-serving and dishonest
Apparently contemptible Trump toadyism expresses the better angel of Mr. O’Neill’s nature:

O'Neill, Brendan (26 December 2012). "If You Were Abused By Jimmy Savile, Maybe You Should Keep It to Yourself". The Huffington Post.
This article has been removed because it did not meet our editorial standards.
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/p/edit ... -standards

O'Neill, Brendan. “Gay marriage and the death of freedom”. Spectator https://www.spectator.com.au/2014/12/ga ... f-freedom/

O'Neill, Brendan (22 April 2019). "The cult of Greta Thunberg". Spiked. https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/04/2 ... -thunberg/
O’Neill wrote:Nobody has a right to incite violence; even the wonderfully liberal First Amendment, as made clear by numerous Supreme Court decisions, does not protect words that openly call for imminent violent behaviour. But everyone must have the right to argue their political case as colourfully and furiously as they like, and to call for protests and resistance. This is the stuff of politics. It always has been.
Wrong. O’Neill is parroting what is likely to be lawyer Alan Dershowitz’s defense of Trump at his Senate trial, but that line of argument is deeply flawed.

Everyone does not “have the right to argue their political case as colourfully and furiously as they like, and to call for protests and resistance”. Trump is no ordinary citizen: as commander-in-chief and chief executive, he benefits from special privileges (pardon power, freedom from indictment, secret service protection, executive privilege), but he also is burdened with attendant responsibilities.

As a private citizen, I might invoke blanket constitutional speech protection had I used the ‘colorful and furious’ language Trump did last Wednesday. After the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton then a private citizen had the right to call for resistance to Trump and his “basket of Deplorables”.

But by virtue of the office Trump holds, there are superseding constitutional constraints upon his political speech. Those constraints flow from his oath of office and from the duties assigned to the President in the Constitution. Donald Trump has openly, publicly violated those constraints. Therefore, he should be tried, convicted and barred from holding office forever.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:05 pm

But by virtue of the office Trump holds, there are superseding constitutional constraints upon his political speech. Those constraints flow from his oath of office and from the duties assigned to the President in the Constitution. Donald Trump has openly, publicly violated those constraints. Therefore, he should be tried, convicted and barred from holding office forever.
Well and clearly stated.

I'm quite sure that a majority of our citizenry agrees with you.

We'll see if the Senate is still a representative body for that majority. Maybe not, even with McConnell openly warning of Trump's danger to the Republican Party. The House certainly was yesterday, but only 10(!) defections there will not be enough if the Senate is to convict, even in spite of the overwhelming evidence that I'm sure will be presented.

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:25 pm

maestrob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:05 pm
But by virtue of the office Trump holds, there are superseding constitutional constraints upon his political speech. Those constraints flow from his oath of office and from the duties assigned to the President in the Constitution. Donald Trump has openly, publicly violated those constraints. Therefore, he should be tried, convicted and barred from holding office forever.
Well and clearly stated.

I'm quite sure that a majority of our citizenry agrees with you.

We'll see if the Senate is still a representative body for that majority. Maybe not, even with McConnell openly warning of Trump's danger to the Republican Party. The House certainly was yesterday, but only 10(!) defections there will not be enough if the Senate is to convict, even in spite of the overwhelming evidence that I'm sure will be presented.
Just so, Joseph and Brian. But I can't see 17 Republicans defecting, even though they all know the big steal is a lie. Was it Jeff Flake who said not one Congress member he has spoken to believes it?

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Thu Jan 14, 2021 1:02 pm

barney wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:25 pm
maestrob wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:05 pm
But by virtue of the office Trump holds, there are superseding constitutional constraints upon his political speech. Those constraints flow from his oath of office and from the duties assigned to the President in the Constitution. Donald Trump has openly, publicly violated those constraints. Therefore, he should be tried, convicted and barred from holding office forever.
Well and clearly stated.

I'm quite sure that a majority of our citizenry agrees with you.

We'll see if the Senate is still a representative body for that majority. Maybe not, even with McConnell openly warning of Trump's danger to the Republican Party. The House certainly was yesterday, but only 10(!) defections there will not be enough if the Senate is to convict, even in spite of the overwhelming evidence that I'm sure will be presented.
Just so, Joseph and Brian. But I can't see 17 Republicans defecting, even though they all know the big steal is a lie. Was it Jeff Flake who said not one Congress member he has spoken to believes it?
I believe so, yes.

We can only hope that some of them decide not to show up, but I tend to agree with you on this, Barney, as in many other things.

In fact, I'm not looking for a conviction in the Senate right now, no matter what evidence is presented. Perhaps I'm being cynical, but I don't believe it's possible, even with McConnell openly stating his opposition to Trump remaining as party leader.

That said, as I've previously posted, all it takes is a simple majority in the Senate to ban Trump form running for office ever again, even if that vote is taken after the vote to convict him on the impeachment charge fails. One does not depend on the other.

jserraglio
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by jserraglio » Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:46 pm

It all depends (1)/on how badly Mitch wants to purge Trump and (2) how much self control Trump is capable exerting during the trial.

Pence comes out of this smellin’ like a rose, however.

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:19 pm

That's interesting Brian. I didn't realise that the banning of future office did not depend on coviction. So the Senate can acquit him of high crimes and misdemeanours, yet then ban him from holding office again? Are you sure?
If so, then that would happen on party lines, let alone the few Republicans with a conscience such as Romney who would surely join them.

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:22 pm

jserraglio wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 4:46 pm
It all depends (1)/on how badly Mitch wants to purge Trump and (2) how much self control Trump is capable exerting during the trial.

Pence comes out of this smellin’ like a rose, however.
Yes re 1) and 2) and also what happens on Jan 20. More rioting, as predicted, will backfire on Trump.
Pence has shown integrity when push came to shove, but he was a chief enabler of Trump for four years. That rose is well embedded in manure.

Rach3
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Thu Jan 14, 2021 7:25 pm

Belle wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 12:10 am
Thank God I'm not an American.

[/quote


We also thank God you are not.

I see your Dear Leader ( and employer of a member of your family (?) ), PM “Coal” ,or is it “Fire Hose” , Morrison got a medal just this past December from Trump. At least our noted football (US) coach Bill Bellichek turned down the one Trump offered to give him.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:10 am

barney wrote:
Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:19 pm
That's interesting Brian. I didn't realise that the banning of future office did not depend on coviction. So the Senate can acquit him of high crimes and misdemeanours, yet then ban him from holding office again? Are you sure?
If so, then that would happen on party lines, let alone the few Republicans with a conscience such as Romney who would surely join them.
Yes, Barney, quite sure. Article 14 of our Constitution allows a vote on that separate issue. I've posted an article on that somewhere here: I'll look for it and give you the thread title soon.

jserraglio
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:22 am

I think they have to convict first, then bar from office. But perhaps in Trump's case, the cretin codicil would kick in.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:55 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:22 am
I think they have to convict first, then bar from office. But perhaps in Trump's case, the cretin codicil would kick in.
Not so, Joe and Barney, as the authors of this article, which refers to Article 14, Section 3 of our beloved Constitution, which was enacted after the Civil War, that I posted on January 12, make clear. The article outlines how Congress could bar Trump (and for that matter Republicans who may be convicted of aiding and abetting the insurrection last Wednesday) from running for office again WITHOUT convicting him on the impeachment charge brought by the House. Here is the title and the link:

Impeachment Isn’t the Only Option Against Trump

Congress can invoke its constitutional power to bar the president from holding office again.

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... 11&t=52439

The article concludes:

Make no mistake: This was an insurrection. The 14th Amendment disqualifies its instigators from public office, whether the president is convicted in a Senate trial or not.

jserraglio
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by jserraglio » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:08 am

Thanks. Good news tho' I would have much preferred having a cretin exception. That being the case, they should not wait for impeachment but move immediately to ban him for life with a simple majority vote.
Last edited by jserraglio on Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

Rach3
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:08 am

“Men Yell at Me” newsletter, 1/15. Bingo !

“In 2017, I sat in a conference room in rural Illinois with pastors and their wives. And their wives. And listened to a class on how to bridge the “urban” and “rural” divide.
If only we could learn more about the rural mentality, the class’s instructors urged us, we could heal our nation. I didn’t disagree, not entirely. America is a large country, and ignorance about regionalisms and stereotypes are pervasive. How often did I have to read political think pieces about Iowa with tortured musings on the flat empty fields? Or read one more profile of a farmer in a diner musing about the way things used to be?

The class operated from the basis that a lot of post-2016 political analysis asserted was fact: Elite Americans had lost touch with the rural working class. We had ignored the silent voices of so many beer-guzzling, McDonald’s eating, salt-of-the earth types. We needed to listen. To bridge the divide.

There were soft focused profiles of white supremacists. Mother Jones coined the term “dapper white nationalist” to describe Richard Spencer. Everyone read Hillbilly Elegy. In 2017, David Brooks lamented that it was the elites focus on “food truck, tea, wine and Pilates tastes, not to mention [possessing] the right attitudes about David Foster Wallace, child-rearing, gender norms and intersectionality” that was making it impossible for the poor to succeed in America.

If only we could bridge the divide. In this class, bridging the divide meant eating the food of the town (no being a vegetarian), dressing like the people in your town, the pastors advised. One pastor’s wife raised her hand to ask if that meant she could wear her jewelry, did she have to get rid of her brand-name purses? I expected the leaders of the class to say, “There is Gucci in Sydney, Iowa, too!” But they didn’t. They told her to pray about it.

I wondered about dietary restrictions, disability, and skin color. I thought of all the ways I’d contorted my body and my appearance to be more pleasing and more attractive, just so people would like me. And how it didn’t work. How I had bent and broken, but always by virtue of being who I was, was never good enough.


That year, my politically divided marriage had fallen apart. We spent years in therapy trying to come together. To compromise over issues like whether I could have a coffee mug that read “mother lover” on it. And finally, one day, I decided I would not compromise. I was sick of hiding my coffee mugs and not being able to talk about my work at the table. The therapist had us working on a puzzle together. A task I resented because I had suggested a beach vacation. But instead, we’d compromised on a beach-themed puzzle. I also resented it because the metaphor felt forced. Find the pieces together, and we’d connect a broken picture. If we didn’t, we’d be a puzzle with a missing piece.

But neither one of those happened. Because night after night of coming downstairs and silently piecing together a picture of an ocean, when really all I wanted to be was at an ocean, I quit.This wasn’t a compromise. Going to Michigan instead of Florida, that’s a compromise. This wasn’t even meeting halfway.One night, I came downstairs, stepped around the puzzle and sat on the couch and changed the channel.Some bridges need to be burned.

After our nation’s Capitol was invaded by violent insurrectionists and our members of Congress impeached the president again, dissenting voices called on us not to “further divide” America. They ask us to bridge the divide.If bridges are built, whose bodies are broken in their construction? The idea of the poor overlooked poor is a myth. The violent mob were cops, CEOs, and bankers. This wasn’t a lack of education or opportunity. This was a choice made without thought of consequences because in their privilege, they thought there would be no consequences. And to be fair, there hadn’t been thus far. This wasn’t “the other side,” this was every side. You cannot build a bridge to something already in your midst. You don’t cure a cancer by reasoning with it, or letting it edit the Politico Playbook, you eradicate it with a medicine so powerful it radiates through your entire body. There is no compromise with an ideology that is rooted in white supremacy. You can’t go halfsies on whether we should let democracy or an autocrat rule our nation. When we compromise with violence, violence wins. When we deign to debate lies, the lies are given credence. When we decide that a person’s humanity is a topic of polite discussion, we concede that their humanity is in question and in the process lose ours.No, there are no bridges to be built. These bridges are for burning.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:20 am

jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:08 am
Thanks. Good news tho' I would have much preferred having a cretin exception. That being the case, they should not wait for impeachment but move immediately to ban him for life with a simple majority vote.
Yes, of course, I would like that to happen as well. But first they would have to enact the legislation enabling them to do so. That would take some doing, as it would have to be tacked onto a financial bill in the Senate so it could pass with a simple majority due to their ruling on, I think it's called "Reconciliation, " rather than having to overcome a 60-vote threshold with the filibuster.

We'll see what happens. As of January 20, that depends on Chuck Schumer, not Mitch McConnell.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:25 am

There is no compromise with an ideology that is rooted in white supremacy. You can’t go halfsies on whether we should let democracy or an autocrat rule our nation. When we compromise with violence, violence wins. When we deign to debate lies, the lies are given credence. When we decide that a person’s humanity is a topic of polite discussion, we concede that their humanity is in question and in the process lose ours. No, there are no bridges to be built. These bridges are for burning.
Right on!

Rach3
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 11:52 am

Assassination planned. The horn-wearing ” shaman” rioter thinks he is an alien.Others wanted to kill on the spot. Deplorables:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-says-capit ... 51620.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/arrested-cap ... 32162.html
https://www.yahoo.com/news/kill-him-own ... 14707.html

Slime-ball Colorado GOP Rep. Boebert violates security orders during riot : https://www.yahoo.com/news/local-newspa ... 52632.html

Dont want any bridges to them.

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 pm

maestrob wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:55 am
jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:22 am
I think they have to convict first, then bar from office. But perhaps in Trump's case, the cretin codicil would kick in.
Not so, Joe and Barney, as the authors of this article, which refers to Article 14, Section 3 of our beloved Constitution, which was enacted after the Civil War, that I posted on January 12, make clear. The article outlines how Congress could bar Trump (and for that matter Republicans who may be convicted of aiding and abetting the insurrection last Wednesday) from running for office again WITHOUT convicting him on the impeachment charge brought by the House. Here is the title and the link:

Impeachment Isn’t the Only Option Against Trump

Congress can invoke its constitutional power to bar the president from holding office again.

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... 11&t=52439

The article concludes:

Make no mistake: This was an insurrection. The 14th Amendment disqualifies its instigators from public office, whether the president is convicted in a Senate trial or not.
Thanks Brian.
This has not been much discussed, but it is important. Is it because the Democrat leaders are hoping a conviction in the Senate will add legitimacy? Is it because they are concerned that it will be a precedent that can be misused any time a party has a majority in both House and Senate? That would be reasonable, but Trump is no ordinary case. (I was disappointed that only 10 Republicans voted for impeachment and see little prospect of 17 Senators voting for conviction, even though many will say later they knew he was a rotten and dangerous President. They are still in thrall.)

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:55 pm

Steve, where did that men yell at me article come from, and who is the author? I wondered where she (I presume) was going with it, but she certainly landed in a powerful spot.
Especially powerful was her contention, which I think true, that the insurrectionists gave no thought to consequences because they didn't expect any. Many looked like tourists wandering around taking selfies. Not that I am in any way justifying any of them.

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Fri Jan 15, 2021 1:40 pm

barney wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:50 pm
maestrob wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:55 am
jserraglio wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 9:22 am
I think they have to convict first, then bar from office. But perhaps in Trump's case, the cretin codicil would kick in.
Not so, Joe and Barney, as the authors of this article, which refers to Article 14, Section 3 of our beloved Constitution, which was enacted after the Civil War, that I posted on January 12, make clear. The article outlines how Congress could bar Trump (and for that matter Republicans who may be convicted of aiding and abetting the insurrection last Wednesday) from running for office again WITHOUT convicting him on the impeachment charge brought by the House. Here is the title and the link:

Impeachment Isn’t the Only Option Against Trump

Congress can invoke its constitutional power to bar the president from holding office again.

http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopi ... 11&t=52439

The article concludes:

Make no mistake: This was an insurrection. The 14th Amendment disqualifies its instigators from public office, whether the president is convicted in a Senate trial or not.
Thanks Brian.
This has not been much discussed, but it is important. Is it because the Democrat leaders are hoping a conviction in the Senate will add legitimacy? Is it because they are concerned that it will be a precedent that can be misused any time a party has a majority in both House and Senate? That would be reasonable, but Trump is no ordinary case. (I was disappointed that only 10 Republicans voted for impeachment and see little prospect of 17 Senators voting for conviction, even though many will say later they knew he was a rotten and dangerous President. They are still in thrall.)
Your perceptive questions are difficult to answer, as they should be. I imagine senior leaders of both parties are discussing this issue right now as we await the confrontation in the Senate that an impeachment trial that now must happen will bring.

Things are already so vastly complicated by what must be done to hold our economy together and distribute and manufacture enough doses of vaccine to speedily inoculate our population, along with approving another vaccine by Johnson & Johnson that requires only one shot to be effective. That's what must happen now. I mean, what if we become so politically unstable that the countries we are borrowing from to finance our deficit begin to doubt our ability to eventually repay that debt? What exactly would we do if interest rates were to suddenly rise on our bonds? You can imagine, I'm sure, what effect it would have on the world economy if we were no longer regarded as a safe haven for the vast sums of cash that are floating around these days.

So political stability has to be our first priority.

I also imagine that there are fears that discussing the above legislative option in the media would seriously inflame tensions even further, so that may be why such discussion is not happening now.

Also, we must wait until certain members who have been accused of aiding and abetting the insurrection on 1/6/21 are thoroughly investigated and, if necessary, charged. If some of those are convicted, and that group contained those who voted against certifying the election, then would they all be included among those that Congress would seek to remove from power?

I haven't thought through all the implications of implementing such legislation, but if the above turned out to be the case, our country would explode.

The vast majority of Republicans in the House voted against certifying Joe Biden's win because of Trump's lies. Should they all be purged or forgiven, or something in-between?

Right now, I have no clear answer.

Still, I believe the process must be started and debated, perhaps after the trial on the impeachment charges is over. It would make sense to me for Congress to condemn those who continued to support Trump's lies even after all that has happened.

God help us.

Thanks for caring. I'm sure you're not alone. The world is watching us.

Rach3
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:23 pm

barney wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:55 pm
Steve, where did that men yell at me article come from, and who is the author?
Try: lyz.substack.com

barney
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:52 am

Thanks Brian. You are right, there so much at stake beyond the principles themselves. Punishing insurrectionists is very important, and clearly the Democrats and much of the country understand that very well. And yet how much do you risk political upheaval to uphold justice (Pontius Pilate confronted a form of this question)?
You are right that the entire world is watching with (in many cases) horrified fascination. I don't suppose Trump even knows because he is so self-obsessed, but the Chinese gloating is horrible. But I am sure that most people, even in countries not allied with the US, want it to work out peacefully. America has already overcome many huge disruptions; may this be just one more.

barney
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by barney » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:54 am

Rach3 wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:23 pm
barney wrote:
Fri Jan 15, 2021 12:55 pm
Steve, where did that men yell at me article come from, and who is the author?
Try: lyz.substack.com
Thanks Steve. Will do.

Rach3
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:41 am

The legacy of Trump and the GOP is an armed Washington ,DC , an Inauguration under threats, State capitols under threats, all as never before. None of that would be occurring otherwise, but for Trump and their sycophantic cowardice.Tell your Trump or GOP friends they, too, are equally responsible.

Rach3
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Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by Rach3 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:53 am

Rach3 wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 8:41 am
The legacy of Trump and the GOP is an armed Washington ,DC , an Inauguration under threats, State capitols under threats, all as never before. None of that would be occurring otherwise, but for Trump and their sycophantic cowardice.Tell your Trump or GOP friends they, too, are equally responsible.
Another record of which Trumpers can be proud:
"...President himself visited one of his own properties on approximately one out of every three days he’s been in office."

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/dona ... 22864.html

maestrob
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Re: Trump Is the Republican Party’s Past and Its Future

Post by maestrob » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:15 am

I say again, he should die broke and in jail. :evil:

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