200 users online now of which 197 are guests.

[Lance]

One wonders why the guests do not join CMG. We certainly get a lot of hits. We have interesting subjects in our music section and our other areas as well. Like to keep our CMGers up-to-date on these statistics. We are doing okay, I don't expect we'll go "broke!" I still maintain that our world is a mess on so many fronts. Will it ever end?

[Holden Fourth]

One wonders why the guests do not join CMG. We certainly get a lot of hits. We have interesting subjects in our music section and our other areas as well.

To me it's obvious why people don't join. This is purportedly a classical music board but as a 'lurker' what you see when you first connect is the thread titles. Now today is not too bad; 60% of the posts visible to me are classical music inclined leaving 40% as mainly political rhetoric. This is a good day for classical music posts percentage wise. On other days you struggle to pick out the classical music posts as the board is besieged with what is mainly pro left wing (but not completely) rhetoric and it's as much as 80% of the posts. I did a little test and went into the board as a lurker myself and that was my strong impression and 80% (3 in 4) non classical music posts was the percentage I got.

So as a lurker why would anyone look at CMG? Because they're interested in classical music! Am I, the lurker, seeing a preponderance of classical music threads? No I am not so I'll pass and move on to somewhere else. From my own perspective, If I was not a current member of CMG and I perused this forum, I definitely would NOT be joining.

So maybe folks we need to reevaluate what we should be contributing to this forum. The wealth of classical music knowledge on this board is simply mind boggling. I haven't seen this level of expertise on any other forum and it's the only reason I stay. We have professional classical performers, conductors, reviewers, academics, etc. Is it time to bite the bullet and simply not allow political posts. I, for one would not be sorry to see them go. However, maybe for many of you this is your chance to vent and here's this convenient platform to do all because you can't do without your daily dose of right or left wing invective. I could go on but I hope I've made a point and that you might think about this and won't dismiss it totally out of hand.

[Belle]

You make good points, Holden. For what it's worth, I've been on 4 other boards previous to this one over the years and they have been, with one or two individual exceptions (those people contacted me privately), strongly pro-Left and many nasty political arguments ensued over the most benign comments (not just by me). I grew tired of the undergraduate schtick and the hatred; I finally mistrusted the musical knowledge of most of them, regarding these as mostly off-the-shelf postings from people I could not respect! What a total bore, complete with the usual trolls (one was particularly insecure and vicious and pursued me over the internet - and I was already somebody's grandmother!!), and a waste of life - which is already too short. Most of those boards are now extinct.

Here on CMG you can avoid the usual political folderol and concentrate on the music section. When I look at the topics on The Pub all I see is Trump, Trump, Fascists in the GOP and other playground stuff. Counter-arguments, no matter how well considered, are responded to with labels and ad homs, cartoons and ridicule. I've tried to provide an alternative to the prevailing 'orthodoxies' here by way of thoughtfully showing that there are really intelligent people out there with different views, including how the institutions are corrupt - and that critics of all that are usually very successful people!! I've reached the stage where I'd rather have my head drilled open and filled with concrete than deal with internet strangers who deal in cookie-cutter commentary.

But I really enjoy the Chatterbox since nobody in my life knows very much at all about the music we all love!! My erstwhile community music group has suffered losses because some really smart people have recently died or moved away, but many are preoccupied with their various health depredations and the group has settled for programs of mediocrity. I made my escape when Covid started!! I could have remained there and kept up a more demanding musical program but we decided to build a new house - and I grew tired of turning up each week with one or two of them giving me orders!!

[Lance]

Very good comments, indeed, from Holden and Belle. Do other CMGers have comments? I would like to know your thoughts. Of course, my interest in having CMG was solely about classical music, then we added concert and book reviews, all related topics to the world of music. I don't even visit our "political" board that much but do make a comment or two on occasion.

[Ricordanza]

Do other CMGers have comments? I would like to know your thoughts.

I don't understand the objections about the political posts. In other forums on classical music, the political comments are mixed in with the musical posts; you can't avoid them. Here, the political comments are (mostly) found in the Corner Pub. If you don't want to read them, if you don't agree with the politics, if you find the level of discourse unacceptable, then avoid the Corner Pub! It's that simple.

[Seán]

Hello CMG devotees, I have to admit that I do visit regularly but do not always login as Seán.
The pub has been with us for ever and does not bother me in the slightest. When I visit it’s usually to read posts by Lance, Maestro Brian, and many others too. I have learned so much from all of you.
If I come across a conductor or musician who is not known to me I search in here for comments first before I decide to buy a CD.
This is a great, great site please do not change it.
And thanks Lance.

[Febnyc]

I often visit a couple of other sites which support serious discussions about classical music.

Both appear to be quite well-supported by actual members of their forums. One of them has almost 3,000 members, with 170 on line as I sit here and type this post. And the other, due to its singular emphasis on a certain period of composition attracts many composers, artists and people from the recording industry.

Neither of these sites feature anything but music - unlike CMG which has its "Corner Pub." Personally, I never participate in that, but I do believe it could turn away potential joiners. Let's face it - the "Pub," like most of our media today, focuses mostly on Trump, Trump and Trump.

Guests finding this site could very well be put off by the fact that there are almost as many non-music posts as there are ones dedicated to the mission of this site.

My affiliation here goes back many years and I never have seen any reason for the "Pub," which, over time, has become more polarized and more centered on zero-sum arguments.

If I owned this franchise I'd do away with any discussions other than those about classical music.

[jserraglio]

My affiliation here goes back many years and I never have seen any reason for the "Pub," which, over time, has become more polarized and more centered on zero-sum arguments.

So does mine, and IIRC the Pub was pretty darn contentious in Corlyss_D's day too. If it has become more polarized in the past decade, the reason is fairly obvious, no? -- the world at large, particularly the U.S., has become even more polarized.

As Febnyc notes, like it or lump it, we live today in the Age of Trump.

I also concur with Holden Fourth's observation that left-wingers outpost right-wingers about 60/40 in the Pub. But that could simply reflect the fact that, at least in the USA, progressives outnumber conservatives in the general population by roughly the same ratio.

I see no problem with folks voicing their political opinions in a dedicated space. Neither does conservative Republican Liz Cheney, who in her new book urges all citizens, on the right and the left, to speak their minds about the dangers posed by the rise of ultra-nationalism and Trumpist authoritarianism. Those whose delicate sensibilities are offended by such speech are free to direct their gaze elsewhere.

[maestrob]

Frankly, I am heartily pleased with CMG as it now stands. There have been comments from those posting here who are unhappy with the Corner Pub, but hey folks, politics are part of life, and I've found us to be a fairly tolerant bunch, in spite of the polemics there. CMG is certainly rich in opinion, both about music and life itself. In that, the mission is fulfilled. If your interest is music only, then avert thine eyes and turn away from the Pub!

Let's keep things as they are, and thank Lance for his willingness to keep our community safe and sound.

[Belle]

Frankly, I am heartily pleased with CMG as it now stands. There have been comments from those posting here who are unhappy with the Corner Pub, but hey folks, politics are part of life, and I've found us to be a fairly tolerant bunch, in spite of the polemics there. CMG is certainly rich in opinion, both about music and life itself. In that, the mission is fulfilled. If your interest is music only, then avert thine eyes and turn away from the Pub!

Let's keep things as they are, and thank Lance for his willingness to keep our community safe and sound.

I always enjoy your musical postings and look forward to these, but I don't agree that political discussions are inevitable. When I was a child such things were verboten in polite society and I think we can see the reason why when tuning into The Pub. Americans are obsessed with politics whereas Australians aren't so much.

A large music board isn't necessarily a better one and if this one grew much bigger I'd head for the door.

[barney]

My affiliation here goes back many years and I never have seen any reason for the "Pub," which, over time, has become more polarized and more centered on zero-sum arguments.

So does mine, and IIRC the Pub was pretty darn contentious in Corlyss_D's day too. If it has become more polarized in the past decade, the reason is fairly obvious, no? -- the world at large, particularly the U.S., has become even more polarized.

As Febnyc notes, like it or lump it, we live today in the Age of Trump.

I also concur with Holden Fourth's observation that left-wingers outpost right-wingers about 60/40 in the Pub. But that could simply reflect the fact that, at least in the USA, progressives outnumber conservatives in the general population by roughly the same ratio.

I see no problem with folks voicing their political opinions in a dedicated space. Neither does conservative Republican Liz Cheney, who in her new book urges all citizens, on the right and the left, to speak their minds about the dangers posed by the rise of ultra-nationalism and Trumpist authoritarianism. Those whose delicate sensibilities are offended by such speech are free to direct their gaze elsewhere.

Well Joe, we are in agreement! I enjoy the Corner Pub, I read a lot of articles that I would not otherwise come across, and learn things from debating, including with Joe. It does sometimes happen that musical discussions take a tangent, and perhaps we posters should try harder to avoid that, but generally the tenor of discussion is reasonably polite. No one on this forum has accused me of thinking I'm God or being a bigot because of my distaste for some aspects of Wagner's private life, as happened on the other forum I visit (though increasingly less often). And for those who dislike the politics - stay away from the pub.

Belle, you are one of the biggest contributors to discussion in the pub (which is a good thing; many of those articles to which I referred are posted by you), and use highly demeaning language of "the Left", so I think your protest above is a little on the nose.

PS: this is now clearly a political discussion, and should probably be in the pub rather than the chatterbox.

[Belle]

No, this won't fly. I provide articles, podcasts, facts and comment and in return I get low resolution epithets and abuse. It's the complete unwillingness of lefties to engage any other viewpoint than their own talking points/ideology, such as is now the case in most of the institutions. That's why they're usually not economically progressive or have any sociological imagination.

I don't call left-wingers "MAGA" people, deplorables, fascists, nazis, QAnon, white supremacists, ignorant, uneducated, toxic masculinity - which is standard fare here on The Pub - and it's supposed to be a substitute for any kind of substantive argument!! People here refer to vast swathes of the US population as "deplorables" and "MAGA extremists". That's an industrial strength insult in any nation. What kind of impression does that create for people casually reading CMG?

I can't stand our Labor government but I know that only a small percentage of green left extremists are responsible for their election (through our preferential voting system) and not the majority of good people in Australia. Both our major parties are at critically low numbers in their primary vote. Neither party has a 4 in front of it with respect to percentage of support.

I don't care what lefties think as I generally don't take them seriously, but I will push back when I read and hear garbage which criticizes conservatives, because I believe what Jordan Peterson says that if you don't speak your truth when you feel it's needed then each day you take one step towards perdition. Something like that anyway. My conservative friends would be far less inclined to do so.

[Febnyc]

No, this won't fly. I provide articles, podcasts, facts and comment and in return I get low resolution epithets and abuse. It's the complete unwillingness of lefties to engage any other viewpoint than their own talking points/ideology, such as is now the case in most of the institutions. That's why they're usually not economically progressive or have any sociological imagination.

I don't call left-wingers "MAGA" people, deplorables, fascists, nazis, QAnon, white supremacists, ignorant, uneducated, toxic masculinity - which is standard fare here on The Pub - and it's supposed to be a substitute for any kind of substantive argument!! People here refer to vast swathes of the US population as "deplorables" and "MAGA extremists". That's an industrial strength insult in any nation. What kind of impression does that create for people casually reading CMG?

I can't stand our Labor government but I know that only a small percentage of green left extremists are responsible for their election (through our preferential voting system) and not the majority of good people in Australia. Both our major parties are at critically low numbers in their primary vote. Neither party has a 4 in front of it with respect to percentage of support.

I don't care what lefties think as I generally don't take them seriously, but I will push back when I read and hear garbage which criticizes conservatives, because I believe what Jordan Peterson says that if you don't speak your truth when you feel it's needed then each day you take one step towards perdition. Something like that anyway. My conservative friends would be far less inclined to do so.

Uh - puleeze - this screed belongs in the Pub.

PS - to Lance - why not delete this entire thread and get back to music?

[Lance]

I moved this subject to the Pub, where it should have been in the first place, being a non-classical music subject. All I can say is that places like the Pub can be contentious (more so in the past on CMG if memory serves, as someone pointed out). If you find the Pub offensive or nerve-racking, my suggestion is to simply stay away from it. I do like to look in, but don't get involved frequently inasmuch as I love "harmony," ... as a piano technician/tuner would! My idea here — on the whole of CMG — is to make everyone as happy as possible!

[Holden Fourth]

While I've no problem with any thread being moved to the Pub, what hasn't been addressed is what first timers to the Forum see on initial login. If what they see looks predominantly classical music based then that's fine (and we might get new members) but when the thread titles from the political side are predominant it gives the wrong impression of CMG. Does someone have a an idea of how we can separate the two so that we don't look as if politics is the main thing that we are interested in?

[Lance]

Well, the name of our site is "The Classical Music Guide Forums." Then, of course, we break down the "departments." Hopefully, if the interest is in classical music, people will stick with those components. And of course, our SUBJECT lines in the classical music forums should be suggestive of classical music, not political issues. The Pub clearly defines use for subects other than classical music. I have been guilty of posting non-classical subjects on the classical sites thinking comments might get more view. Now I am being careful of that. Problem is sometimes we go off on a tangent and that's where the trouble may start. Thank you, Holden, for your comments. I appreciate your loyalty and caring of CMG. It means a lot!

While I've no problem with any thread being moved to the Pub, what hasn't been addressed is what first timers to the Forum see on initial login. If what they see looks predominantly classical music based then that's fine (and we might get new members) but when the thread titles from the political side are predominant it gives the wrong impression of CMG. Does someone have a an idea of how we can separate the two so that we don't look as if politics is the main thing that we are interested in?

[jserraglio]

People here refer to vast swathes of the US population as "deplorables" and "MAGA extremists". That's an industrial strength insult in any nation. What kind of impression does that create for people casually reading CMG?

The nation of Japan has a great many million 'soy boys' and the reason for this remains enigmatic. We have our own theories…

The second quote is the most recent blanket "industrial strength insult” from Belle about people and cultures she regularly subjects to ridicule.

So, "what kind of impression does that create for people casually reading CMG”?

[barney]

While I've no problem with any thread being moved to the Pub, what hasn't been addressed is what first timers to the Forum see on initial login. If what they see looks predominantly classical music based then that's fine (and we might get new members) but when the thread titles from the political side are predominant it gives the wrong impression of CMG. Does someone have a an idea of how we can separate the two so that we don't look as if politics is the main thing that we are interested in?

Surely they are separate. When I log in I get classical chatterbox as the top forum, then corner pub - quite separate.

[Holden Fourth]

That's made me think. I've goyt my account set up so that it immediately reverts to Unread posts. Maybe newbies and others get a different view. If so, and what you've experienced is the norm then that goes a long way to solving the issue.

[jserraglio]

That's made me think. I've got my account set up so that it immediately reverts to Unread posts. Maybe newbies and others get a different view. If so, and what you've experienced is the norm then that goes a long way to solving the issue.

Holden, I think that is indeed the norm. Whenever I have to re-login with username and password, which is quite often, I see a page with the four forums listed separately.

[Ricordanza]

That's made me think. I've goyt my account set up so that it immediately reverts to Unread posts. Maybe newbies and others get a different view. If so, and what you've experienced is the norm then that goes a long way to solving the issue.

When I log in, I see separate boxes for the Classical Music Chatterbox, the Corner Pub, Classical Music Reviews, and so on. That's why I didn't understand your comment about mixing posts about politics and music--I didn't know that there was any other way to set up this site. So I suggest that you change your settings accordingly.