It's Ratzinger!

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:44 pm

I had doubt. I should have reached for that dictionary :).

But I was in a hurry.

Oy.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

pizza
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:57 am

Ted Baylis wrote:Ya know CD, anyone can poke holes in ancient rituals and beliefs—obviously and most of all me- but I was thinking about the cloistering of menstruating woman, and while that practice was barbaric and idiotic, there is a lot to be said about locking up pre-menstruating women—at least the one I’m married to. :)
Of course, that's not the way it works now, nor did it work that way during the periods of the First and Second Temple. The laws of Ritual Purity are well-known and well-defined. They're really very simple and there's no "cloistering" or "separation" of women from men during any part of her menstrual cycle. The short answer is that sexual contact is forbidden from the time menstruation begins until a certain number of days thereafter, depending upon certain circumstances, after which the women immerses herself in a mikvah. For anyone really interested in how it works, get a copy of the Kitzer Schulchan Aruch in English and it will give you a broad description of the process. Beyond that, ask your local rabbi.

This is a typical example of how a simple process can be misconstrued or misinterpreted beyond all semblance of reality by reading something that was never designed to explain the process.

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:02 am

Ralph wrote:It's pretty well known that the new pope regularly bets on the Cardinals.
And now they've returned the favor.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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pizza
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:24 am

Barry Z wrote:
pizza wrote:
Barry Z wrote:I don't think it's a coincidence that Catholicism, Orthodox Judaism and Islam all treat females as second-class citizens in one respect or another.

The rules to these religions were all written by men who undoubtedly never heard of women's lib.

Yeah. Just ask my wife. I beat her at least three times a day; once after Shachrit, then after Mincha and finally, if she's still able to stand, after Ma'ariv. And despite her second-class citizenship, she keeps coming back for more. Imagine -- we've raised six happy, well-adjusted kids. They all know exactly who they are, where they come from and where they're going; they all know the meaning of personal responsibility; they have all attained a solid measure of success, and I don't mean merely financial; and their kids are on the same solid path. Not one of the women would trade her "second class citizenship" for anything your women's lib fantasies have to offer.

Do you take pride in your abysmal ignorance of your own heritage? Scurrilous quips such as yours are written by men who undoubtedly never heard of, much less ever experienced a solid Jewish education.
I suppose I imagined the stories reported on Israeli Orthodox men throwing things at women who attempted to pray at the Whaling Wall (not to mention women who had the audacity to wear short sleeved shirts and a skirt in an Orthodox neighborhood).

I've also heard the stories from my mother about how her ultra-Orthodox (the man did nothing but study the Talmud) great grandfather would give her the cold shoulder in favor of her brother because she is female. You can close your eyes and deny that Orthodox Judaism is patriarchal until women are allowed to be priests, and that still won't make it true.

I'm actually quite proud to have parents who were progressive enough to give me the choice of being indoctrinated into Jewish dogma. I chose not to be bar mitz vah'd because religious dogma struck me as silly and hypocritical then, and when I look back at my decision as an adult, I couldn't be more sure that I made the right one. I was the only person of Jewish descent in the neighborhood where I grew up that I knew of who didn't simply go along with what I was supposed to do, for no other reason that that they were told that's what they are supposed to do (and I should add that I can't remember any of the Jewish kids I grew up with ever talking about the religious meaning and significance of their bar mitz vahs.........all I can recall them talking about was how much money they'd get in gifts). I showed an independent, and secularist (before I even knew what it meant), streak that I'm still proud of.
One can choose to believe every bubbe meise that comes along, or one can choose to investigate matters for one's self. I've spent a major part of the last 14 years in Israel. I'm thoroughly familiar with the various incidents you describe. You hear about them because they are so rare that they make the press -- an Israeli State manipulated anti-religious press at that -- but that's a story for another time.

Your description of the Bar Mitzvah process may be accurate for essentially assimilated American Jews, but it's as alien to Orthodox Judaism as a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur. You were simply brainwashed against the practice of authentic Judaism. Your situation was no different than that of most liberal American families today whose kids are dropped off at Sunday School by parents who couldn't care less about religion, religious practices, or anything seriously connected with their heritage. They're assimilating and disappearing from Judaism. It's like anything else -- you can only take something of value from any discipline in direct proportion to what you put into it. In your case, it's nothing.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:28 am

Barry Z wrote:I had doubt. I should have reached for that dictionary :).
:? It's always the ones you don't look up that get you in trouble.
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pizza
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:42 am

Barry Z wrote:
I suppose I imagined the stories reported on Israeli Orthodox men throwing things at women who attempted to pray at the Whaling Wall (not to mention women who had the audacity to wear short sleeved shirts and a skirt in an Orthodox neighborhood).
There is a section at the "Whaling Wall", better known as the Western Wall, for women. There has been ever since the Old City of Jerusalem was retaken in '67. Women pray there every day without incident. Men are not permitted to pray in that section and never try to. There are some women with political agendas who deliberately provoke incidents in order to make political statements by trying to pray in the mens' section with tallit and tefillin. It's no different than if they were to walk into an orthodox shul and try the same offensive tactic. The shamus would eject them and that's what usually happens at the Wall since it is under the supervision of the Orthodox Rabbinate. Of course there are a few men who react inappropriately when these incidents occur. What else is new?

There are neighborhoods in Jerusalem, such as Mea Shearim where a modest dress code for women is considered appropriate. The dress code is on signs as one enters the neighborhood from all directions. It has nothing to do with short sleeved shirts and a skirt, but entering the neighborhood with a tank top and a mini-skirt or shorts is inappropriate and offensive to the people who live there. Tourists are advised of these rules before they enter. It's a cultural thing. You're big on multi-culturalism, aren't you? Well, there you have it -- remember, it's not Philadelphia. I've never heard of nor seen responsible grown men throwing anything at women who are inappropriately dressed, which is not to say that it may never have occurred. I have seen a few incidents where women were stopped and politely told that it would be better if they came to the area more modestly dressed. Most will take the hint, even those with a political agenda, as there's not much point in trying to make a case for mini-skirts and tank tops in such places.

I have personally observed a few cases of stone-throwing at automobiles driven in religious neighborhoods on Shabbat; in every case it was done by a few rowdy pre-adolescent boys who were caught and arrested almost immediately.

All of which goes to show that no group of people are perfect, not even Orthodox Jews.
Last edited by pizza on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Kevin R » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:10 am

Holden Fourth wrote:I think that the Catholic Church's position on the role of women in society was most strongly expressed in mediaeval times. Their pursuit of the 'pagan' cult of 'wicke' with its female priests and worship of Mother Earth says it all and the witch hunts that were part of the process continue today, albeit in a different guise. It is estimated that over 9 million women died over the space of about 15 decades at the hands of these religious zealots. It sort of puts the "holocaust" in perspective doesn't it!

Holden
Try 60,000 (although still an appallingly high number).
"Free trade, one of the greatest blessings which a government can confer on a people, is in almost every country unpopular."

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pizza
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:54 am

Ralph wrote:
pizza wrote:
Ted Baylis wrote:He looks pretty spry for 77...But 77 is still 77
Yeah, so what? I'll be 74 this summer and I'm looking forward to my regular Friday afternoon softball games with the local yeshiva boys. I can still pitch 7 innings of pretty decent baseball, can still hit and field; can't run like I used to but nobody runs for me. And I can still throw the ball past kids a quarter of my age. 8) Do you think the new pope has any interest in baseball?
*****

Yeah, so what? I'll be 62 this summer and I'm looking forward to my regular Mostly Mozart concerts with the shorts and t-shirt Lincoln Center crowd. I can still buy 7 CDs after a concert, can still use chopsticks with flair; can't run to catch the closing doors on the No. 1 IRT train like I used to. And I can quaff down Diet Coke faster than kids a quarter of my age.

It's pretty well known that the new pope regularly bets on the Cardinals.
Yeah, so what? I can do all of that too, just not on a Friday afternoon.

If it's ever proven that the new pope regularly bets on the Cardinals, he'll likely end up in the same situation as Pete Rose. :oops:

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Post by Ralph » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:10 am

For a primer on the Orthodox Jewish doctrine on sex, you can't do better than Rabbi Boteach's book, Kosher Sex.

He's a great crossover character having gone from advising the frum about what they can or can't do in the sack to becoming a media, talk show frequent guest (he was, emphasis was, a supposedly close friend of Michael Jackson).
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Post by Ralph » Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:18 am

From today's New York Daily News about Pope Ben:

Bet you didn't know

# He was born on a holy Saturday and notes he was baptized with the newly blessed Easter holy water.

# He has excommunicated dozens of people, including seven women who took part in a simulated ordination, a Vietnamese archbishop and theologians who questioned church teachings.

# He has an online fan club (Motto: "Putting the smackdown on heresy since 1981.")

# He has called rock 'n' roll evil, saying it is full of "diabolical and satanic messages." He singled out the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Queen and the Eagles as especially evil.

# He can be funny. Asked once whether the Vatican would operate better in Germany, he responded, "What a disaster! The church would be too organized."
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:46 am

Ralph wrote:From today's New York Daily News about Pope Ben:

Bet you didn't know
His older brother George was the director of music at the Regensburg Cathedral (famous for its choir) from 1964 to 1994.

He himself plays classical piano and is fond of Mozart.

In the old days before the tables were turned, he was driven from the Catholic theological faculty at the University of Tuebingen for being too liberal.

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Barry
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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 8:36 am

pizza wrote: Your description of the Bar Mitzvah process may be accurate for essentially assimilated American Jews, but it's as alien to Orthodox Judaism as a ham sandwich on Yom Kippur. You were simply brainwashed against the practice of authentic Judaism. Your situation was no different than that of most liberal American families today whose kids are dropped off at Sunday School by parents who couldn't care less about religion, religious practices, or anything seriously connected with their heritage. They're assimilating and disappearing from Judaism. It's like anything else -- you can only take something of value from any discipline in direct proportion to what you put into it. In your case, it's nothing.
Yes.......I chose, after two separate Hebrew schools and my father telling me that he doesn't know if there is a God (not that there is no God), but that I'll have to make that decision myself. Again, based on my current secular stance and extremely negative views on organized religion in general, I couldn't be happier and prouder of the decision I made.

I honestly ocassonally feel guilty over the fact that I know it disappointed a grandfather who I remained extremely close to through his death in the early 90s. But guilt does not equate to regret. There are none of those with regard to the path I chose with regard to secularism/religion.

My family actually hit the entire spectrum of Judaism in this country; from the great grandfather I mentioned earlier who spent his entire adult life devoting himself to studying the talmud to another great grandfather who wanted to go to the synagogue when he first came over from Russia, but was turned away because he didn't have the money to pay the dues (or entrance fee for high holy days.......not sure which). He decided at that point that if they wouldn't take him because he couldn't afford it at that point, he didn't want any part of the religion. That branch of the family never turned back.

The real core of my secular belief system is that one can be moral and do the right thing without believing in god or any religious indoctrination. If you want to spend your life studying your religion and heritage in search of truth and wisdom, more power to you. That path holds no appeal to me. The very concept of god and religion in general is an empty one for me, and I will not accept Judaism from that because I happened to be born a Jew.

That doesn't mean I won't speak up when I experience or witness anti-Semitism. I'm very defensive of Israel at times because it's subject to a double standard that may very well be based in anti-Semitism. But that does nothing to change my view of the religion itself.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by Donald Isler » Wed Apr 20, 2005 9:09 am

Why WOULD men want to go to the women's section at the Western Wall anyway? It's smaller, less pleasant and was far more crowded than the men's section even when I was there in 2003 and hardly any tourists were coming to Israel. By contrast, I was able to spend time by the Wall, then sit for awhile at the back of the men's section and contemplate what an honor it was to be able to be there, and how many people over many centuries would have wished for this.

By the way, my 79 year old cousin who lives in Jerusalem, one of the wisest people I know, who is both ORTHODOX and LIBERAL said that when Israel got the Old City back after the Six Day War in 1967, and Jews could once again visit the Wall, anyone could go to any part of the Wall, and she liked it better that way.

The Western Wall belongs to the Jews. It is not solely the property of the Orthodox.
Donald Isler

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 10:04 am

I've seen Orthodox men, from Islam and Judaism, defend their rules that separate men and women (be it separation during prayer, separate dress codes, separate whatever) as basically separate but equal; or as a sign of the respect and esteem that men have for women. But who made the rules? Men. Were women consulted by the men who made the rules? Unlikely. They're indoctrinated (i.e. brainwashed) from an early age to accept their role and they don't make waves. Same with the priesthood being limited to men. Did Jesus actually say women can't occupy any leadership roles in the church or did the men who were the early leaders of Christianity decide that without consulting with any women. I'd bet the latter.

This reminds me of when I've seen southern whites defend relations between blacks and whites in the pre civil rights and voting rights act south as positive. They were only positive as long as the blacks stayed in their place. As soon as they started demanding rights and access to the same facilities that whites enjoyed, relations deteriorated in a hurry.

I wonder if the same thing would happen between Orthodox Jewish men and women if the women, who probably never gave an okay to the rules separating them from men during prayer in the first place, started demanding the right to pray where the men pray.

As far being told I rejected Judaism because I was brainwashed against it, I find that more than a little ironic in light of the fact that it's coming from an Orthodox member of one of the major religions. Do you consider children who are indoctrinated into their religion by their parents and others from the time they are very young to be brainwashed, Pizza? I obviously do. I don't know your circumstances. But I don't think there is any denying that most people around the world are adherents of their religions because they were indoctrinated into it from the time they were young. If that's not brainwashing, I don't know what is.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:22 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Why WOULD men want to go to the women's section at the Western Wall anyway? It's smaller, less pleasant and was far more crowded than the men's section even when I was there in 2003 and hardly any tourists were coming to Israel. By contrast, I was able to spend time by the Wall, then sit for awhile at the back of the men's section and contemplate what an honor it was to be able to be there, and how many people over many centuries would have wished for this.

By the way, my 79 year old cousin who lives in Jerusalem, one of the wisest people I know, who is both ORTHODOX and LIBERAL said that when Israel got the Old City back after the Six Day War in 1967, and Jews could once again visit the Wall, anyone could go to any part of the Wall, and she liked it better that way.

The Western Wall belongs to the Jews. It is not solely the property of the Orthodox.
Orthodox men don't want to pray in the women's section because they pray in the men's section. That's not a difficult concept. It has nothing to do with personal comfort and everything to do with Halacha.

Every orthodox synagogue is open to all Jews, men and women alike. Since women are exempt from the obligation to pray, most shuls do not have the accomodations for women that are available for men. But it happens that there are rules that govern how they are operated. Rules are a difficult concept for liberal Westerners to appreciate, especially when they think they're aggrieved by having to follow them. A mechitza, or divider separates men from women during prayer services in all orthodox synagogues everywhere in the world. That's the way it always was, and always will be. There are good, solid Halachic (Torah based laws) reasons for it and Halacha isn't subject to a democratic voting process or to political lobbying. As long as the Wall is under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Rabbinate, that's the way it will be there also.

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:43 pm

Barry Z wrote:I've seen Orthodox men, from Islam and Judaism, defend their rules that separate men and women (be it separation during prayer, separate dress codes, separate whatever) as basically separate but equal; or as a sign of the respect and esteem that men have for women. But who made the rules? Men. Were women consulted by the men who made the rules? Unlikely. They're indoctrinated (i.e. brainwashed) from an early age to accept their role and they don't make waves. Same with the priesthood being limited to men. Did Jesus actually say women can't occupy any leadership roles in the church or did the men who were the early leaders of Christianity decide that without consulting with any women. I'd bet the latter.

This reminds me of when I've seen southern whites defend relations between blacks and whites in the pre civil rights and voting rights act south as positive. They were only positive as long as the blacks stayed in their place. As soon as they started demanding rights and access to the same facilities that whites enjoyed, relations deteriorated in a hurry.

I wonder if the same thing would happen between Orthodox Jewish men and women if the women, who probably never gave an okay to the rules separating them from men during prayer in the first place, started demanding the right to pray where the men pray.

As far being told I rejected Judaism because I was brainwashed against it, I find that more than a little ironic in light of the fact that it's coming from an Orthodox member of one of the major religions. Do you consider children who are indoctrinated into their religion by their parents and others from the time they are very young to be brainwashed, Pizza? I obviously do. I don't know your circumstances. But I don't think there is any denying that most people around the world are adherents of their religions because they were indoctrinated into it from the time they were young. If that's not brainwashing, I don't know what is.
I am what is commonly referred to as Ba'al Tshuva; I made a conscious decision to enter the world of Orthodox Judaism when I was an adult. The process resulted from finding secularism empty, without meaning and with nothing consistently worthwhile to say regarding the importance of life and how a Jew ought to comport himself. I immersed myself in the study of Torah -- Chumash, Mishna, Gemarra, and other areas of study in order to learn what the religion has to offer. I educated myself, with the help of knowledgable people, of course. Education isn't brainwashing -- neither for children nor for adults. Listening as a child to old-wives' and grandmas' tales about personal insults from orthodox scholars and extrapolating from such that an entire religion is flawed, is a form of having been brainwashed. If you're honest with yourself, you will admit that your views of orthodox Judaism are shaped by anecdote rather than serious study.

For my views about separation of the sexes during prayer services, see my last post. It has nothing to do with equality. Authentic Judaism isn't an offshoot of the American Civil Rights movement.

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Post by Donald Isler » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:44 pm

Much about Israel besides the Wall is under the rule of the Orthodox Rabbinate, and this causes a lot of problems for many of the 85% of Israelis who are not Orthodox. Since the Orthodox will never succeed in converting all the others to Orthodoxy there will inevitably be battles on numerous fronts there, and no one will win all of them.
Donald Isler

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:51 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Much about Israel besides the Wall is under the rule of the Orthodox Rabbinate, and this causes a lot of problems for many of the 85% of Israelis who are not Orthodox. Since the Orthodox will never succeed in converting all the others to Orthodoxy there will inevitably be battles on numerous fronts there, and no one will win all of them.
The consequences of a nation founded by people accustomed to coalition governments. Fortunately, that's something unlikely to ever happen in this country. I shudder at the very thought . . .
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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:53 pm

Kevin R wrote:Try 60,000 (although still an appallingly high number).
Isn't anyone going to tell me where they get these numbers from?
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pizza
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:54 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Much about Israel besides the Wall is under the rule of the Orthodox Rabbinate, and this causes a lot of problems for many of the 85% of Israelis who are not Orthodox. Since the Orthodox will never succeed in converting all the others to Orthodoxy there will inevitably be battles on numerous fronts there, and no one will win all of them.
In reality it causes few problems. Most Israelis don't even know how to get to the Wall. I know from personal experience how many have asked me how to get to the Wall when they're less than a kilometer away and heading right for it.

The Orthodox in Israel aren't interested in converting anyone to Orthodoxy. That's mostly a function of "outreach programs" in America. Most of the "battles" in Israel that you refer to are concoted and fueled by the anti-religious, such as the Shinui political party, who couldn't care less about religion and religious practices.
Last edited by pizza on Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:56 pm

pizza wrote: If you're honest with yourself, you will admit that your views of orthodox Judaism are shaped by anecdote rather than serious study.
I am perfectly honest with myself. I grew up in a secular envirnoment and have always been comfortable in such.

I'm sorry, but a young child being told by his parents that there is a god and that they have no choice in the matter, but to go to their place of worship and follow the religious customs that their parents, grandparents and so on have followed for hundreds or thousands of years is brainwashing. We can debate as to whether it's a healthy or unhealthy form of brainwashing, but it's brainwashing nonetheless.

A six or eight year old kid who is started down the path of religion by his parents and never sways from that path for the rest of his or her life is not making an independent decision. They are being indoctrinated (brainwashed).

My views of Orthodox Judaism are no different than my views of Orthodox or fundamentalist Christianity and Islam (aside from the acknowledgement that Orthodox Jews and Christians aren't generally waging a Jihad like so many Orthodix Muslims are). I won't apologize or feel bad for thinking assimilating into secular society is preferable to following religious dogma.

One thing I will give you credit for though, is that I agree that it makes no sense to be a "cafeteria Jew" (borrowing the phrase from the Catholics). I have never understood why reformed or secular Jews follow a couple traditions (like not eating bread during Passover), while ignoring the overwhelming majority of their religion's customs. So in that sense, I think it makes sense to either accept your faith and live the tenents of your religion or reject them and live a fully secualar life. I prefer the latter obviously.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:59 pm

jbuck919 wrote:In the old days before the tables were turned, he was driven from the Catholic theological faculty at the University of Tuebingen for being too liberal.
Don't ya love these guys who start out to do good and end up doing very well?
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Ted

Post by Ted » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:07 pm

So Pizza
How do orthodox men view a woman Cantor?
Is she respected, revered or chalked off as irrelevant?
I respect your orthodoxy…though I’m bewildered by a belief system that is in stark contrast to modern western mores not to mention Reform Judaic traditions.
Religion does not work for me
Jewish traditions like Passover do
As do Christian traditions like Christmas
I guess since my parents held a traditional bris for me I unwittingly took part in the most holiest of Jewish rituals, yet to me, being a Jew boils down to enjoying a matzoth ball, Gefilte fish etc.
Heathen that I am
t

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:10 pm

Ted Baylis wrote: ... being a Jew boils down to enjoying a matzoth ball, Gefilte fish etc.
Heathen that I am
t
To me, Passover means two things: Watching The Ten Commandments on TV (my grandtather taught me that it was all true when I was a kid........was that also brainwashing?........but regardless, I love it for sentimental reasons) and my Aunt Adeline's Gefilte fish.

And by the way, hell hath no fury like me when my path to a good Jewish deli tray is blocked. But that's about as far as I go with Jewish tradition.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by Donald Isler » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:11 pm

Pizza wrote:

"Most of the 'battles' in Israel that you refer to are concoted and fueled by the anti-religious, such as the Shinui political party, who couldn't care less about religion and religious practices."

This is nonsense. You seem to consider that everyone who is non-Orthodox is anti-religious. THAT's the problem. The fact that a non-Orthodox rabbi cannot perform a wedding which will be legally recognized, for example, is a big problem, and offensive to many Israelis.
Donald Isler

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:12 pm

Barry Z wrote:
pizza wrote: If you're honest with yourself, you will admit that your views of orthodox Judaism are shaped by anecdote rather than serious study.
I am perfectly honest with myself. I grew up in a secular envirnoment and have always been comfortable in such.

I'm sorry, but a young child being told by his parents that there is a god and that they have no choice in the matter, but to go to their place of worship and follow the religious customs that their parents, grandparents and so on have followed for hundreds or thousands of years is brainwashing. We can debate as to whether it's a healthy or unhealthy form of brainwashing, but it's brainwashing nonetheless.

A six or eight year old kid who is started down the path of religion by his parents and never sways from that path for the rest of his or her life is not making an independent decision. They are being indoctrinated (brainwashed).
Your first sentence about your own experience explains why it isn't brainwashing. The educational process doesn't start at six or eight. It starts at birth. You grew up in a secular environment and felt comfortable in it. That's how most religious kids grow up also. If they feel comfortable in a religious atmosphere they grow up religious. They aren't told by their parents "there is a God and that [you] have no choice in the matter, but to go to [our] place of worship and follow the religious customs that [your] parents, grandparents and so on have followed for hundreds or thousands of years" -- they grow up in an environment where they see their parents and peers doing things in a certain way, and they do likewise. I don't call it brainwashing. That's how most kids everywhere in the world are educated.

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:18 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Pizza wrote:

"Most of the 'battles' in Israel that you refer to are concoted and fueled by the anti-religious, such as the Shinui political party, who couldn't care less about religion and religious practices."

This is nonsense. You seem to consider that everyone who is non-Orthodox is anti-religious. THAT's the problem. The fact that a non-Orthodox rabbi cannot perform a wedding which will be legally recognized, for example, is a big problem, and offensive to many Israelis.
What you think I consider is nonsense. I don't think anything of the sort. But I do know where the anti-religious sentiment is coming from, and it ain't from "everyone". What you, as a liberal non-orthodox American think is offensive, most Israelis couldn't care less about. If they want a non-orthodox wedding, all they have to do is hop a ferry for Cyprus and get it. The number of those who do, as compared to the general population reveal just how few really care one way or another.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:25 pm

Ted Baylis wrote:I guess since my parents held a traditional bris for me I unwittingly took part in the most holiest of Jewish rituals,
Um, don't think you could have objected if it had occurred to them to ask you what your druthers were.
yet to me, being a Jew boils down to enjoying a matzoth ball, Gefilte fish etc.
If the Jews are not a "race," what's the attraction of cultural Judaism that rejects the religious part of the identity? And if Jews are not a "race," what good does it do, in terms of distinquishing a secular Jew from an observant Jew so presumably to avoid the usual consequences in times of trouble, to reject the religious part of the identity?

As we see from what's happening in France and other nations in Eurasia, they gonna come for you no matter how much you protest that you don't "believe" and you're a secularist. It puzzles the hell out of me why people like that writer for Commentary think being secular and non-observant is going to save them from being identified as a Jew and thus spared from attacks. For some reason, everyone else can change their religions, their names, their countries, their cultures, their status, and everyone accepts them in their butterfly states. But let a Jew try it, and somehow, they never escape their Jewish origins. How many times have you heard D'Israeli, Mendelssohn, and Mahler described as Jews who became X to achieve Y? It's a big mystery to me.
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:26 pm

Ted Baylis wrote:So Pizza
How do orthodox men view a woman Cantor?
Is she respected, revered or chalked off as irrelevant?
I respect your orthodoxy…though I’m bewildered by a belief system that is in stark contrast to modern western mores not to mention Reform Judaic traditions.
Religion does not work for me
Jewish traditions like Passover do
As do Christian traditions like Christmas
I guess since my parents held a traditional bris for me I unwittingly took part in the most holiest of Jewish rituals, yet to me, being a Jew boils down to enjoying a matzoth ball, Gefilte fish etc.
Heathen that I am
t
There are no women cantors in orthodoxy. There is an Halachic rule against a religious man hearing a woman's live singing voice generally (with certain exceptions not applicable here), so that proscription would apply to prayer services.

As to the remainder of your post, there's nothing to say, other than what you believe is in "stark contrast to modern western mores" is in reality the basis for many of them.

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:31 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ted Baylis wrote:I guess since my parents held a traditional bris for me I unwittingly took part in the most holiest of Jewish rituals,
Um, don't think you could have objected if it had occurred to them to ask you what your druthers were.
yet to me, being a Jew boils down to enjoying a matzoth ball, Gefilte fish etc.
If the Jews are not a "race," what's the attraction of cultural Judaism that rejects the religious part of the identity? And if Jews are not a "race," what good does it do, in terms of distinquishing a secular Jew from an observant Jew so presumably to avoid the usual consequences in times of trouble, to reject the religious part of the identity?

As we see from what's happening in France and other nations in Eurasia, they gonna come for you no matter how much you protest that you don't "believe" and you're a secularist. It puzzles the hell out of me why people like that writer for Commentary think being secular and non-observant is going to save them from being identified as a Jew and thus spared from attacks. For some reason, everyone else can change their religions, their names, their countries, their cultures, their status, and everyone accepts them in their butterfly states. But let a Jew try it, and somehow, they never escape their Jewish origins. How many times have you heard D'Israeli, Mendelssohn, and Mahler described as Jews who became X to achieve Y? It's a big mystery to me.
You are very perceptive. There is no mystery from an orthodox point of view. There's an old saying:

"If the Jew won't make kiddush, the gentile will make havdolah."

I won't translate. Have fun! :wink:

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:33 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
If the Jews are not a "race," what's the attraction of cultural Judaism that rejects the religious part of the identity? And if Jews are not a "race," what good does it do, in terms of distinquishing a secular Jew from an observant Jew so presumably to avoid the usual consequences in times of trouble, to reject the religious part of the identity?

As we see from what's happening in France and other nations in Eurasia, they gonna come for you no matter how much you protest that you don't "believe" and you're a secularist. It puzzles the hell out of me why people like that writer for Commentary think being secular and non-observant is going to save them from being identified as a Jew and thus spared from attacks. For some reason, everyone else can change their religions, their names, their countries, their cultures, their status, and everyone accepts them in their butterfly states. But let a Jew try it, and somehow, they never escape their Jewish origins. How many times have you heard D'Israeli, Mendelssohn, and Mahler described as Jews who became X to achieve Y? It's a big mystery to me.
Corlyss,
It's not a question of what good it does us to reject the religious aspect of Judaism. Most of the Jews I know are fairly secular (admittedly not as extremely so as I am), yet they are well aware that when the SS went looking for Jews, they didn't ask the people they picked up if they were observant Jews before shipping them off to the concentration camps. And we know that not being observant won't save us if such a situation arises again. But what kind of reason is that to be observant if it's not something we believe in or are comfortable with?

People maintain certain aspects of their cultural upbringing; thus things like liking Jewish food, etc. It's no different in Italian families where they are lapsed Catholics, but still get together for family gatherings and eat pasta and other things they enjoyed while growing up.

Thus, when I'm asked my ethnicity, I generally answer either Jewish or Russian-Jewish, while when asked my religion, I generally say either I'm a Secular Humanist or an Agnostic.
Last edited by Barry on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:34 pm

pizza wrote:There are no women cantors in orthodoxy. There is an Halachic rule against a religious man hearing a woman's live singing voice generally (with certain exceptions not applicable here), so that proscription would apply to prayer services.
Pizza, how are relations between orthodox Jews and reform Jews? I mean, do they ever mix socially? Do they just meet over common causes? Is a reform rabbi considered a second class rabbi, or is there some sort of cultural commity owed one by the other? I worked with two young Jews at IRS who were very vocal about their respective politics (i.e., they fought like cats and dogs most of the time), but I never heard any kind of disparagement of one by the other over their religious choices, such as "Greg is not a real Jew because he's Reform" or "Nathan is a stone-age throwback because he's Orthodox." They both seemed to acknowledge each other's Jewishness.
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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:36 pm

pizza wrote: There are no women cantors in orthodoxy. There is an Halachic rule against a religious man hearing a woman's live singing voice generally (with certain exceptions not applicable here), so that proscription would apply to prayer services.
Why aren't I surprised by that? And again, who made the rules? Were women consulted when this rule was established?
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:40 pm

Um, don't think you could have objected if it had occurred to them to ask you what your druthers were.
I think the Bris is held when the baby is 8 days old CD...

Pizza
I know there are no women Cantors in Orthodox sects
My question was how do you view Women Cantors in general
And while I’m not a practicing Jew, (except for family get-togethers i.e. Yom Kippur/Passover), I would never deny that I am a Jew—and I do consider Jews members of the same blood line
t

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:44 pm

Barry Z wrote:
pizza wrote: There are no women cantors in orthodoxy. There is an Halachic rule against a religious man hearing a woman's live singing voice generally (with certain exceptions not applicable here), so that proscription would apply to prayer services.
Why aren't I surprised by that? And again, who made the rules? Were women consulted when this rule was established?
Nope. God didn't consult men either when He made the rule.

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:45 pm

And the lord said, "Let there be no female Cantors."

Sorry if I get a chuckle out of the thought.

I guess it does make sense though. As Archie Bunker said, women were made from a rib, a cheaper cut of meat.
Last edited by Barry on Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:46 pm

Some interesting facts about other popes named Benedict (from Latin benedictus, blessed):

Benedict XV was the pope during WW I. He tried to be a peacemaker but was largely ignored. He was a short-term pope who followed a "great" one (Pope St. Pius X)--check. He quietly ignored his predecessor's vehement anti-modernist stance--no check.

Benedict XIV was pope in the middle of the 18th century. He is most famous for having reigned in the Jesuits, who had succeeded in obtaining a large number of converts in the Far East by honoring their local customs such as ancestor worship and even modifying the Mass so it would make more sense to them. Benedict forbade all this and most of the converts left the church, never to return.

Benedict X was an antipope (a pope who was accepted by a large part of the church at the time but whose election was later ruled invalid), and curiously his number was not reused (John XXIII was actually John XXIII-II). So our new pope should actually be Benedict XV.

Benedict IX, who lived in the 11th century, was one of the very worst popes. He may have been the youngest (apparently he was only 19 when his family bought him the papacy), and he led an extremely dissolute life, on the order of Caligula. He was finally driven from Rome.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:49 pm

Ted Baylis wrote:
Um, don't think you could have objected if it had occurred to them to ask you what your druthers were.
I think the Bris is held when the baby is 8 days old CD...

Pizza
I know there are no women Cantors in Orthodox sects
My question was how do you view Women Cantors in general
And while I’m not a practicing Jew, (except for family get-togethers i.e. Yom Kippur/Passover), I would never deny that I am a Jew—and I do consider Jews members of the same blood line
t
If they're pretty, I view them the same way you do! :wink:

Seriously, the rule makes sense. The purpose is to remove as many distractions as possible from men during prayer services. During the days of the great chazzonim such as Yosele Rosenblatt and Moshe Koussevitzky (no relation), people complained that they were so enthralled with their singing voices that they couldn't concentrate on the services. So imagine what would happen if, say, someone with the voice and the looks of Netrebko was a cantor. Might as well dispense with the service.

Ted

Post by Ted » Wed Apr 20, 2005 1:59 pm

Hey I can’t argue with you Pizza.
The two times I was at a service with a woman Cantor, I was more interested in her “Curves” than anything else that was said, sung or done.

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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:00 pm

pizza wrote: Seriously, the rule makes sense. The purpose is to remove as many distractions as possible from men during prayer services. During the days of the great chazzonim such as Yosele Rosenblatt and Moshe Koussevitzky (no relation), people complained that they were so enthralled with their singing voices that they couldn't concentrate on the services. So imagine what would happen if, say, someone with the voice and the looks of Netrebko was a cantor. Might as well dispense with the service.
I suppose you are aware that this is precisely the argument for segregation among Muslims. And that they also differentiate between men being required to be at prayer while it is optional for women (who are supposedly at home with the children). There is nothing wrong with this, and considering that it originated in the same part of the world, it is quite to be expected. I just thought it was interesting.

Family worship has been the norm in Christianity since ancient times without anyone ever having suggested that lascivious feelings were an interfering factor. I wonder why (the Greco-Roman input maybe?). I also don't suppose it ever occured to the guys who made these rules that Moshe might occasionally be indifferent to Havila but easily distracted by Shlomo.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:08 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
pizza wrote:There are no women cantors in orthodoxy. There is an Halachic rule against a religious man hearing a woman's live singing voice generally (with certain exceptions not applicable here), so that proscription would apply to prayer services.
Pizza, how are relations between orthodox Jews and reform Jews? I mean, do they ever mix socially? Do they just meet over common causes? Is a reform rabbi considered a second class rabbi, or is there some sort of cultural commity owed one by the other? I worked with two young Jews at IRS who were very vocal about their respective politics (i.e., they fought like cats and dogs most of the time), but I never heard any kind of disparagement of one by the other over their religious choices, such as "Greg is not a real Jew because he's Reform" or "Nathan is a stone-age throwback because he's Orthodox." They both seemed to acknowledge each other's Jewishness.
You raise a very broad and difficult question because there are as many different answers as there are people.

Orthodoxy considers anyone a Jew whose mother is a Jew. That's the starting point and finish line of "who is a Jew" from the orthodox point of view. Do they mix socially? Depends on circumstances. There is certainly no rule against it and if the occasion arises, the answer is yes. It's a matter of personal preference, same as any other social situation.

Do they work together? Sometimes. During the Holocaust there was a famous group known as "The Working Group" that consisted of an Orthodox Rabbi, a well-known secularist woman, and others of various persuasions who for several years, under the noses of the Gestapo and SS, worked successfully to save many Jews by various methods. They didn't care one whit about affiliations. I'm sure there are other situations where they work together, not the least of which arise in the workplace. When I wasn't religious, I worked with a couple of religious Jews on cases when the occasions arose. Never gave it a thought, except on a Friday afternoon when they had to leave early in order to get home before the Shabbat.

Orthodoxy doesn't view anyone other than an Orthodox Jew as a rabbi. One need not have Smicha (ordination) in order to be a rabbi, but one must have a solid foundation in orthodoxy and follow the rules of Halacha. A few courses in comparative religion won't suffice.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:09 pm

jbuck919 wrote: I wonder why (the Greco-Roman input maybe?).
Only in the traditional state religions was there strict separation between the sexes. In the Mystery Cults, of which Christianty was in the beginning, there was no segregation of the sexes. They were viewed as spiritual equals, indeed both necessary halves of the same whole, and both fully participated in as well as officiated at the ritual ceremonies. That was one of the reasons that Christianity was infinitely more popular among the Greeks and Romans than it was among the Jews, in the beginning. Everything went to hell when Constantine made Christianity the state religion. Christianity began to behave more like the traditional Roman state religion, the bishop of Rome had all his opponents in the several sects of Christianity executed as heretics, established the one common creed of faith, banned relations with pagans, and the rest, as they say, is history.
I also don't suppose it ever occured to the guys who made these rules that Moshe might occasionally be indifferent to Havila but easily distracted by Shlomo.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are a brave soul, to go there.
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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:21 pm

A film/documentary called Trembling Before God addresses the issue of homosexuality and the Orthodox Jewish community.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by Ted » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:21 pm

CD Wrote:
Pizza, how are relations between orthodox Jews and reform Jews? I mean, do they ever mix socially?
That was the gist of my question to Pizza re the Orthodox view of Woman Cantors.
I have a strong suspicion that reform Jews, like the majority of my family are closer to “Gentiles” in the eyes of the Orthodox. But Pizza will, I’m sure, excoriate me for that generalization.
BTW Cor
The Bris is the ceremonial act of circumcision.
I can assure that were I not a week old at the time and my parents explained to me what was involved, I’m pretty sure I would have said thanks but no thanks :(

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:22 pm

Yes......unlike the bar mitz vah, I had no choice on the bris.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:30 pm

Ted Baylis wrote:BTW Cor
The Bris is the ceremonial act of circumcision.
I can assure that were I not a week old at the time and my parents explained to me what was involved, I’m pretty sure I would have said thanks but no thanks :(
:lol: :lol: :lol: I know. And Freud wondered why little boys were so hung up on sex. If some one did that to me as an infant I'd be mad as hell, too, as well as obsessed with whatever was left of the poor thing.

Did you ever see the Northern Exposure episode where the 63 yr old Holling decided it would make him appear more "stylish" to be circumcised? One of the funniest episodes they ever did. I don't know how they kept from cracking up every third word in filming. Holling was having hilarious nightmares about the operation, and Shelley, Holling's squeeze, wanted Joel to show her the book of styles, like for noses and breasts, so she could pick the most appealing one. Joel finally talked them both out of the whole idea, to everyone's relief.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Wed Apr 20, 2005 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ted » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:39 pm

Never saw Northern Exposure CD
But I can say that I’ve heard that men who have circumcisions as adults go through a hellishly painful aftermath
I find it oddly amusing and ironic that homosexuality being the “Crime” that Jewish law says it is, one of the first things a Jewish male experiences is another man’s hands on his penis.
”I’ll retire to bedlam”
t

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Post by Barry » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:41 pm

One of the great fake ads on the original Saturday Night Live was a car commercial in which Dan Aykroyd demonstrated how smooth the ride was by having a moil perform a circumcision in the back seat while they drove around. At the end, the moil holds the baby up and says, "poifect."
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:43 pm

Ted Baylis wrote: I have a strong suspicion that reform Jews, like the majority of my family are closer to “Gentiles” in the eyes of the Orthodox. But Pizza will, I’m sure, excoriate me for that generalization.
Not true. As I mentioned before, the Orthodox view is that anyone whose mother is Jewish is also a Jew. That's the Halacha, whether you're Ashkenazi, Sephardic, a Hassid, or whatever.

The Orthodox view of the Reform Movement itself is another story entirely. But that has nothing to do with how Reform Jews are viewed by the Orthodox.

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Post by pizza » Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:47 pm

Ted Baylis wrote:Never saw Northern Exposure CD
But I can say that I’ve heard that men who have circumcisions as adults go through a hellishly painful aftermath
I find it oddly amusing and ironic that homosexuality being the “Crime” that Jewish law says it is, one of the first things a Jewish male experiences is another man’s hands on his penis.
”I’ll retire to bedlam”
t
Halacha actually placed the responsibility for Brit Milah on the boy's father. But because of the squeamishness of most men and their unwillingness to learn the basics of the procedure -- actually not that difficult, one is allowed to use a shliach or agent to perform the act.

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