Isn't This Nice for a Change

[JackC]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

These people seem to know who they want as an ally.

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

[jbuck919]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

A nine-year delay wouldn't hurt. By then I'll be retired.

[JackC]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

A nine-year delay wouldn't hurt. By then I'll be retired.

I wish they would stay too, but from what I can see, other than for economic reasons, they are just not wanted. They are becoming a constant source of political friction.

(I know it would be a lousy change for the troops and their families.)

[jbuck919]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

A nine-year delay wouldn't hurt. By then I'll be retired.

I wish they would stay too, but from what I can see, other than for economic reasons, they are just not wanted. They are becoming a constant source of political friction.

(I know it would be a lousy change for the troops and their families.)

Well, from what I can see, and I'm in the middle of it, there is not the friction you are implying. I know of no political pressure anywhere in Europe where American troops remain to have them gone. We're good guests by and large, we help the economies, and any time they decide they need the base for the expansion of an airport (as they did at Frankfurt), it's their country and we oblige.

It is true that the decision to go into Iraq created dismay with governments and populations that did not understand and could not agree with it, but this has had no pracitcal impact on base operations. Soldier frome here deploy to and return from Irag by the droves every week. When a few protesters started shouting at a concert given by one of the US Army bands at Bamberg's concert hall (during a welcoming speech by the mayor), they were shouted down and urged out by the rest of the spectators.

The Bush initiative in drawing down forces can be debated on its merits, but it is not receiving any impetus by a desire of the host countries to have us gone.

[Ted]

It is nice that Georgians feel that way about him
It would be even nicer if Americans felt the same

[JackC]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

A nine-year delay wouldn't hurt. By then I'll be retired.

I wish they would stay too, but from what I can see, other than for economic reasons, they are just not wanted. They are becoming a constant source of political friction.

(I know it would be a lousy change for the troops and their families.)

Well, from what I can see, and I'm in the middle of it, there is not the friction you are implying. I know of no political pressure anywhere in Europe where American troops remain to have them gone. We're good guests by and large, we help the economies, and any time they decide they need the base for the expansion of an airport (as they did at Frankfurt), it's their country and we oblige.

It is true that the decision to go into Iraq created dismay with governments and populations that did not understand and could not agree with it, but this has had no pracitcal impact on base operations. Soldier frome here deploy to and return from Irag by the droves every week. When a few protesters started shouting at a concert given by one of the US Army bands at Bamberg's concert hall (during a welcoming speech by the mayor), they were shouted down and urged out by the rest of the spectators.

The Bush initiative in drawing down forces can be debated on its merits, but it is not receiving any impetus by a desire of the host countries to have us gone.

Well, I agree that the bases are "wanted", but I think that this is for economic reasons. Given the devastating effect that this would have on the econonies around the bases, that is hardly surprising. These days about the last thing Germans want is more damage to their economy.

But politically, things have changed. It is not just Iraq. The US is no longer viewed as necessary for German security. It is very clear where this is headed. Schroeder won his last election by breaking with the US over Iraq. He "unilaterally" announced that it did not matter whether Saddam had WMD or not and it did not matter what the UN decided or what NATO wanted, no German troops were going to assist with any effort in Iraq, period! This was based on anti-Americanism, on which Schroeder openly campaigned. Members of his government even compared Bush to Hitler. When Schroeder gets in trouble politically, he resorts to US bashing.

It used to be that the opposition was scared to death about alienating its old ally, the US. But the fact is that it worked, and it continues to work. Germany is now working with France and others to try to build a "unified" Europe. Their main selling point is that only in THIS way can Europe stand up to the US.

So this is the ideology at work. It just don't think think it makes any sense to maintain huge military bases in such an environment. They served their purpose well, maintained peace and security for 50 years. They allowed Germany to remain free and prosper, and ultimately reunify, for 50 years. All good things come to and end.

Last time there was a debate about what sort of military actions in Iraq the Germans would allow the US bases to support. The next time it will be the same thing, or perhaps just a refusal to allow the bases to be used. The troops would be more welcome elsewhere.

In any case, believe everyone knows that this is going to happen and that the process is already underway.

[JackC]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

A nine-year delay wouldn't hurt. By then I'll be retired.

I wish they would stay too, but from what I can see, other than for economic reasons, they are just not wanted. They are becoming a constant source of political friction.

(I know it would be a lousy change for the troops and their families.)

Well, from what I can see, and I'm in the middle of it, there is not the friction you are implying. I know of no political pressure anywhere in Europe where American troops remain to have them gone. We're good guests by and large, we help the economies, and any time they decide they need the base for the expansion of an airport (as they did at Frankfurt), it's their country and we oblige.

It is true that the decision to go into Iraq created dismay with governments and populations that did not understand and could not agree with it, but this has had no pracitcal impact on base operations. Soldier frome here deploy to and return from Irag by the droves every week. When a few protesters started shouting at a concert given by one of the US Army bands at Bamberg's concert hall (during a welcoming speech by the mayor), they were shouted down and urged out by the rest of the spectators.

The Bush initiative in drawing down forces can be debated on its merits, but it is not receiving any impetus by a desire of the host countries to have us gone.

Well, I agree that the bases are "wanted", but I think that this is for economic reasons. Given the devastating effect that this would have on the econonies around the bases, that is hardly surprising. These days about the last thing Germans want is more damage to their economy.

But politically, things have changed. It is not just Iraq. The US is no longer viewed as necessary for German security. It is very clear where this is headed. Schroeder won his last election by breaking with the US over Iraq. He "unilaterally" announced that it did not matter whether Saddam had WMD or not and it did not matter what the UN decided or what NATO wanted, no German troops were going to assist with any effort in Iraq, period! This was based on anti-Americanism, on which Schroeder openly campaigned. Members of his government even compared Bush to Hitler. When Schroeder gets in trouble politically, he resorts to US bashing.

It used to be that the opposition was scared to death about alienating its old ally, the US. But the fact is that it worked, and it continues to work. Germany is now working with France and others to try to build a "unified" Europe. Their main selling point is that only in THIS way can Europe stand up to the US.

So this is the ideology at work. It just don't think think it makes any sense to maintain huge military bases in such an environment. They served their purpose well, maintained peace and security for 50 years. They allowed Germany to remain free and prosper, and ultimately reunify, for 50 years. All good things come to and end.

Last time there was a debate about what sort of military actions in Iraq the Germans would allow the US bases to support. The next time it will be the same thing, or perhaps just a refusal to allow the bases to be used. The troops would be more welcome elsewhere.

In any case, believe everyone knows that this is going to happen and that the process is already underway.

[JackC]

It is nice that Georgians feel that way about him
It would be even nicer if Americans felt the same

I don't imagine that the Georgians know much about Bush, other than that he is the President of the US.

John F. Kennedy received a huge welcome in Berlin after the wall went up. I suspect that that had a lot more to do with a recognition on the part of people of Berlin that having the US as an ally committed to its defense against the Soviet Union was a very good and important thing than it had to do with any admiration for JFK's loftly rhetoric or any othet aspect of "Camelot."

In the same way, the people of Georgia are very worried about Russian domination. I suspect that anybody that was President of the US would be just as welcomed, perhaps even more. In some places, our being the principal force in the world opposing the Soviet Union for 50 years is viewed as a good thing, and has not been not forgotten.

[Corlyss_D]

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/050510/1/3sg2y.html

These people seem to know who they want as an ally.

I know. It's touching. I missed the freeing of the slaves and the liberation of Europe from Nazism. I'm glad to see this before I die. You can't fool people who have known actual tyranny as who is the Freedom nation.

Which reminds me, we have to get our troops out of "Old Europe" and, if wanted, into New Europe as quickly as possible.

I'm wondering how feasible that is, in the long run. John is right about the way the people feel. It's the old Europe governments that hate us but even they don't want us to leave if only for the economic reasons. The kicker may be the Islamofascists ambitions. Europe is remarkably vulnerable, as Barry and I have been underscoring whenever this clash of cultures issue comes up. They have committed to never fighting another war; they're overrun with Arabs who, while not politically active at the moment, are apparently easy prey for militant imams; they are culturally weak; and they are appeasement addicted. I don't think that's a prescription for an near-term departure of American troops. True, we probably could exert as much military influence from Warsaw as we could from Bamberg but why rush? Symbolically this is just not the right time.

Intel buzz is hyped now about a massive al Qaeda strike in Europe whose dimensions will equal or surpass 9/11. Likely targets are the Vatican and either Germany or England. They are striking at Europe for several reasons: 1) They can't hit America becasue their cells in the US have been eviscerated. 2) Europe is soft on the whole clash of cultures thing and have deluded themselves that they can control events in the ME; 3) they are more likely to react like Spain than like America. 4) Even if they wanted to react like America, they can't. 5) It will radicalize the Muslim populations in France esp. but all over Europe. Supposedly all the hoopla about the death of UBL 2 weeks ago was to "prepare the faithful" for the martyrdom of UBL that will result from the retaliatory strike following the European event. I.e., he's probably already dead, but they are not going to admit it until after this sequence of events. This is just not a good time to be talking about taking our troops out of old Europe and I haven't heard any responsible official talk about it in quite a while.

[Ralph]

It's largely economic: U.S. forces and their families support much of local economies. But withdrawal of our troops would allow us to redeploy them on the fragile Canadian border.