When It Rains It Pours

[JackC]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4599681.stm

"The euro is seen as a potential source of political conflict. According to Stern, some 56% of Germans want to go back to the deutschmark."


So the French voted no, the Dutch are voting no right now and the English would vote no, but now won't have to vote because there will be nothing to vote on. In the middle of this, an article appears which suggests that some in Germany are prepared to blame the Euro for their troubles, and go back to the Deutschmark. This may be the most distressing of all to supporters of the EU.

The French seem clearly ready to "look inward" to do what they perceive to be necessary to protect their own interests. The Dutch are saying the same thing. Now the Gemans may be looking for outside scapegoats too. There is simply no way to have a "Union" when all the "members" are fighting to protect each other's turf.

My sense is that it would have worked best as a group of allies all in one "free trade" zone. Political Union seems more and more like a fantasy.

[JackC]

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/world/european_union

63% of the Dutch voters say "no"! Landslide doesn't even really begin to describe it. Moreover, voter turnout was not supressed, as some thought might happen after the French "non." 62% of eligoble voters voted - more than twice some estimates. So people couldn't wait to stick a fork in the EU.

This was done for different reasons than in France, but the it seems obvious that Europeans are not interested in an EU that will govern their loves.

[Cosima__J]

I'm not at all surprised by the outcome of the votes in France and Netherlands. I think there are just too many uncertainties and fears in the minds of many Europeans. There are too many new members and prospective members of the EU. There are already too many Muslim immigrants to suit a lot of folks in Western Europe so why invite Turkey to become a member of the club? The French revel in their Frenchness and the Dutch in their Dutchness. Why would they like some far away Eurocrat dictating the details of how they live their lives? As to the ecomomic benefits, I imagine a lot of unemployed western Europeans are wondering how open borders with countries with lower paid workers is going to help them.

So the details of what the proposed constitution actually says are probably not relevant. Many voters are suspicious of the whole European concept.

[Corlyss_D]

I think one of the things roiling the referenda voters is the very public and grinding failure of the 3 Blind Mice to do anything with Iran over its nuclear program. The 3 are THE most powerful members of the EU. This is really the first time they have had to deal with a powerful nation-state not of Western origin and on which their much touted "soft power" has had absolutely no effect. With the brutal execution of Theo van Gogh, the earlier similar assassination of Pym Fortyun under their very noses, they are beginning to understand the implaccability of the enemy and see that they have been culturally and legally disarmed in attempting to deal with it. Many words have been expended, by both sides of the Atlantic, on the necessity for Europe to develop common defense and security and foreign policy strategies. I don't see it happening in my lifetime. They can't afford it, they don't want to pay for it, they just want to live in their untroubled little social utopia. The Real Word is standing at the door, knocking loudly, ready to bust it down.

[karlhenning]

... Europeans are not interested in an EU that will govern their loves.

That's a great typo, even without considering that prostitution is legal in Amsterdam :-)

[Ralph]

... Europeans are not interested in an EU that will govern their loves.

That's a great typo, even without considering that prostitution is legal in Amsterdam

*****

[JackC]

... Europeans are not interested in an EU that will govern their loves.

That's a great typo, even without considering that prostitution is legal in Amsterdam

lol

[herman]

I think one of the things roiling the referenda voters is the very public and grinding failure of the 3 Blind Mice to do anything with Iran over its nuclear program.

Sorry, Corlyss, but I very much doubt this has even 3% percent to do with the motives of today's voters.

People voted no because they don't want an overweening EU superstate (which would be better, ideally, at what you're talking about); they voted no because they are unhappy with the national party leaders and they voted no because they feel bad about the expensive Euro.

Iran and its nuclear program, or Korea or whatever didn't even enter people's minds. Unlike you, people don't read three political magazine / websites a day.

[DavidRoss]

I think one of the things roiling the referenda voters is the very public and grinding failure of the 3 Blind Mice to do anything with Iran over its nuclear program.

Sorry, Corlyss, but I very much doubt this has even 3% percent to do with the motives of today's voters.

People voted no because they don't want an overweening EU superstate (which would be better, ideally, at what you're talking about); they voted no because they are unhappy with the national party leaders and they voted no because they feel bad about the expensive Euro.

Iran and its nuclear program, or Korea or whatever didn't even enter people's minds. Unlike you, people don't read three political magazine / websites a day.

You're probably right, Herman. Not only are you there, but I doubt that European voters are any more concerned about "distant" international issues than American voters. ("Bread & circuses" did originate there, ja?)

However, re. Europeans:

beginning to understand the implaccability of the enemy and see that they have been culturally and legally disarmed in attempting to deal with it. Many words have been expended, by both sides of the Atlantic, on the necessity for Europe to develop common defense and security and foreign policy strategies. I don't see it happening in my lifetime. They can't afford it, they don't want to pay for it, they just want to live in their untroubled little social utopia. The Real Word is standing at the door, knocking loudly, ready to bust it down.

Does this remind anyone else of the late 1930s?

[Corlyss_D]

I think one of the things roiling the referenda voters is the very public and grinding failure of the 3 Blind Mice to do anything with Iran over its nuclear program.

Sorry, Corlyss, but I very much doubt this has even 3% percent to do with the motives of today's voters.

People voted no because they don't want an overweening EU superstate (which would be better, ideally, at what you're talking about); they voted no because they are unhappy with the national party leaders and they voted no because they feel bad about the expensive Euro.

Iran and its nuclear program, or Korea or whatever didn't even enter people's minds. Unlike you, people don't read three political magazine / websites a day.

Okay.

[Ralph]

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

bread and circuses

PLURAL NOUN: Offerings, such as benefits or entertainments, intended to placate discontent or distract attention from a policy or situation.
ETYMOLOGY: Translation of Latin pnem et circnss, a phrase coined by the Roman poet Juvenal : pnem, accusative singular of pnis, bread + et, and + circnss, circus games.

[Corlyss_D]

Even my rusty Latin says there's something wrong with those Latin renderings. Unless they've been crossed with vowelless Hebrew.