Gregory's Suggestions for Improving CMG

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Gregory Kleyn

Re: rec.music.classical

Post by Gregory Kleyn » Thu Jul 14, 2005 5:49 pm

dulcinea wrote:I don't care what musical knowledge I may acquire in rec.music.classical. Bad manners and bigotry are unforgivable, and life is too short to waste it in the company of boors and bigots. :x

You suffer at the very least from an over-literal mindset, - a failure to understand that much of the goings-on at rmcr is in the nature of deliberate theatre.

Do you similarly storm out of movies and plays or throw books against the wall with the same type of moral indignation in the face of dialogue your sensibilities may find vulgar and offensive? But you must inevitably in such case miss much of the tissue of life that is thereby being communicated.

Mistress Corlyss restricts the culture of banter and critique on the CMG site to the strictly smiley face variety (I suppose in keeping with her Mormon Country environs) that too often becomes mannered and saccharine, - while rmcr is more that of an inner-city (or even a hood) type environment that sometimes is vicious but reflects much more of the unvarnished human reality with its juxtaposed (and sometimes wonderfully fused) profanities and insights.

Choose your own poison.

dzalman

Re: rec.music.classical

Post by dzalman » Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:00 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:
dulcinea wrote:I don't care what musical knowledge I may acquire in rec.music.classical. Bad manners and bigotry are unforgivable, and life is too short to waste it in the company of boors and bigots. :x
You suffer at the very least from an over-literal mindset, - a failure to understand that much of the goings-on at rmcr is in the nature of deliberate theatre.

Do you similarly storm out of movies and plays or throw books against the wall with the same type of moral indignation in the face of dialogue your sensibilities may find vulgar and offensive? But you must inevitably in such case miss much of the tissue of life that is thereby being communicated.

Mistress Corlyss restricts the culture of banter and critique on the CMG site to the strictly smiley face variety (I suppose in keeping with her Mormon Country environs) that too often becomes mannered and saccharine, - while rmcr is more that of an inner-city (or even a hood) type environment that sometimes is vicious but reflects much more of the unvarnished human reality with its juxtaposed (and sometimes wonderfully fused) profanities and insights.

Choose your own poison.
I find myself in complete agreement with everything said by Mr. Kleyn in his above remarks.

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Re: rec.music.classical

Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Jul 14, 2005 8:42 pm

Gregory Kleyn wrote:Mistress Corlyss restricts the culture of banter and critique on the CMG site to the strictly smiley face variety (I suppose in keeping with her Mormon Country environs) that too often becomes mannered and saccharine
:?: I do? Gee, 's news to me. You give me too much credit, Gregory, and obviously you don't hang out in the Pub.

CMG is a moderated board by the popular demand of the members. We, Lance and I, the SysAdmins, tried not moderating the boards and people left. When we started moderating, people came back. We don't exercise our moderating authority without complaints from our members. Our member numbers are up, our posts are up, and on the whole, we must be doing something right, at least in the eyes of our members. So go figure. Maybe you and dzalman don't enjoy your culutre without boorishness and abuse. There are a lot of us, not just Dulcinea, who do.
Corlyss
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dzalman

Re: rec.music.classical

Post by dzalman » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:19 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Maybe you [Gregory Kleyn] and dzalman don't enjoy your culutre without boorishness and abuse. There are a lot of us, not just Dulcinea, who do.
Speaking only for myself, what you're calling "boorishness and abuse," I call provocative and colorful. Both add to the interest and value of a public forum such as this one. A uniform code of "good and proper" behavior for all participants, willed and enforced by the tyranny of the majority, has all the interest, value, and charm of a genteel penal colony.

Merely my opinion.

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Re: rec.music.classical

Post by DavidRoss » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:31 pm

dzalman wrote:
Gregory Kleyn wrote:
dulcinea wrote:I don't care what musical knowledge I may acquire in rec.music.classical. Bad manners and bigotry are unforgivable, and life is too short to waste it in the company of boors and bigots. :x
You suffer at the very least from an over-literal mindset, - a failure to understand that much of the goings-on at rmcr is in the nature of deliberate theatre.

Do you similarly storm out of movies and plays or throw books against the wall with the same type of moral indignation in the face of dialogue your sensibilities may find vulgar and offensive? But you must inevitably in such case miss much of the tissue of life that is thereby being communicated.

Mistress Corlyss restricts the culture of banter and critique on the CMG site to the strictly smiley face variety (I suppose in keeping with her Mormon Country environs) that too often becomes mannered and saccharine, - while rmcr is more that of an inner-city (or even a hood) type environment that sometimes is vicious but reflects much more of the unvarnished human reality with its juxtaposed (and sometimes wonderfully fused) profanities and insights.

Choose your own poison.
I find myself in complete agreement with everything said by Mr. Kleyn in his above remarks.
Really? Where's the equivalent of "storming out of movies or plays or throwing books against the wall" in dulcinea's post? She simply said that she didn't care to spend her time in the company of bigots and boors. I doubt that by avoiding them she's "missing the tissue of life that is thereby being communicated." Anyone who went to junior high school experienced plenty of that "tissue of life" and style of communication. And Mr. Kleyn's assertion that dulcinea must "suffer at the very least from an over-literal mindset, - a failure to understand that much of the goings-on at rmcr is in the nature of deliberate theatre" is absurd hyperbole based on nothing but sheer prejudice and willful malevolence, for no one acting in good faith could possibly read such tripe into her brief statement. Certainly one can recognize the theatricality involved in such boorishness and still regard it as bad theatre and not worth one's time.

That's exactly why I plan to ignore Mr. Kleyn's future posts. Aside from advocating a "sometimes...vicious" environment with "juxtaposed...profanities and insights," Mr. Kleyn's post simply attacks dulcinea for qualities which he himself read into her post, and snidely criticizes Corlyss for valuing good manners and civil conduct. Such effrontery made me curious enough to check his other posts, revealing a pattern of perversely witty attacks drenched in playfully latinate language that disguises their essential mean-spiritedness. This is sophisticated trolling that makes guys like Herman and Mel look like knuckle-dragging stumblebums--a bulletin board equivalent of a cleverly gift-wrapped package full of roaches that infest your home the moment you open the box.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Re: rec.music.classical

Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:58 pm

dzalman wrote:A uniform code of "good and proper" behavior for all participants, willed and enforced by the tyranny of the majority, has all the interest, value, and charm of a genteel penal colony.
:lol: No wonder you don't hang out here more! Well, at least you aren't like what you say you like, D. You're pretty civilized.
Corlyss
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dzalman

Post by dzalman » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:16 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
dzalman wrote:A uniform code of "good and proper" behavior for all participants, willed and enforced by the tyranny of the majority, has all the interest, value, and charm of a genteel penal colony.
:lol: No wonder you don't hang out here more! Well, at least you aren't like what you say you like, D. You're pretty civilized.
Yes, a most grievous fault in terms of a public forum such as this unless that civility has the "provocative and colorful" of others to play against.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:18 pm

Thanks for reposting, D.
Corlyss
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Brendan

Post by Brendan » Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:22 pm

Some message boards include a function that enables you to ignore (not see) the posts of a specific poster. I'd like see such a facility implemented so I can ignore Mr Kleyn's verbosity - and he can ignore me in turn.

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Post by pizza » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:26 am

Brendan wrote:Some message boards include a function that enables you to ignore (not see) the posts of a specific poster. I'd like see such a facility implemented so I can ignore Mr Kleyn's verbosity - and he can ignore me in turn.
Actually, I rather enjoy the exercise of trying to diagram some of his sentences. It's a real challenge, even to one who has a fairly good grasp of the intracacies of the English Language. It beats working the daily crossword puzzles.

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Post by herman » Fri Jul 15, 2005 3:05 am

What's wrong with rcmr is IMO not a language and / or manners problem. One can be very very nasty and never ever use a rude word. The major problem with rcmr - but I don't go there much - as that there's a bunch of these deeply inbred ancient animosities; people who hate each other so much and for such a long time it has become a integral part of the discussion's structure. They post on each other's topics not to contribute to these issues (which, of course, have been addressed a million times before when you've been around for more than a year) but to cast aspersion on each other.

When boards become older (in internet time a year is a long time) these stagnant resentments develop, and you need to be mature not to get sucked into those things. Having a life also helps. At GMG these things have inevitably been forming, and it will come back here, too, and it really hasn't got a thing to do with bad language. I can see, for instance, that David Ross has a very hard time not mentioning my name without saying something nasty about me - the way he needed to mention my name in his perfectly nice worded post above, as a "knuckle-dragging stumblebum". Why? Beats me. It was completely gratuitous, but he had to get it in, to get the message across to other people: this guy is bad. That's the way these things work. That's how a board turns nasty.

So I would say, never mind the language. The thing to do is to restrain that natural social urge to spot the people you don't like for some reason (often misconceived in an artificial environment like the internet anyway) and make life unpleasant for them. The best internet board I know (but then I know maybe five internet boards in toto) is one where the social aspect, the interaction and the banter is virtually absent: people just talk about the subject matter in its different shapes and forms, and there are never ever any fights because there's not that junior high kind of in-group formation that automatically requires the selection of black sheep etc. People like each other because of what they contribute.

If people are too focused on the need to be nice (and of course other people have to conform to their idea of nice) they inevitably get nasty too.

And just as a PS, this is not a plea for being rude. I have never ever called people names; but neither have I ever engaged in these exclusionary pseudo-polite group games.

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Post by DavidRoss » Fri Jul 15, 2005 8:10 am

Like so many of Herman's statements, the one above is hilariously hypocritical, as his chronic attacks on Karl Henning alone amply demonstrate. He is expert indeed at being "very very nasty without ever using a rude word" (but will use them when it suits him). His antics on GMG embody extremes of every behavior he criticizes here and leave no doubt about his trolling. After waving his true colors so often and so vigorously, it's a bit late for some superficially civil backpedalling to restore credibility. Clever or not, as Aunt Gertrude might have said, a troll is a troll is a troll.

edit: I meant GMG above, and corrected it. And on second look I can see that I took a cheap shot at Herman in my response to Kleyn's post above. I apologize.
Last edited by DavidRoss on Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Post by Werner » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:11 am

Well, I guess I'm lucky in never having been exposed to that other board. And by now I can look back on several years of being on this one, and seeing the oscillations in trends and quality.

We've gone from a vital and high quality (IMO) level to something raucous and nasty, and back to a worthwhile forum for a large range of styles and opinions. I suspect that Lance and Corlyss's current approach is very much to be credited for the turnaround.

I disagree with David's reaction to Herman, as I've stated on another thread - maybe that's because neither one of us is a baby boomer - but I welcome is posts and views. There is always something thoughtful about Herman - I guess nis profession as a writer contributes to that.

DZalman has also gotten my dander up in disagreement - as to the mood or temper of his posts from time to time, while I see what strikes me as a high level of culture and expretise. I guess that RCMR serves a purpose. So, for me, does CMG.
Werner Isler

Ted

Post by Ted » Fri Jul 15, 2005 9:17 am

Pizza Wrote:
Actually, I rather enjoy the exercise of trying to diagram some of his sentences. It's a real challenge, even to one who has a fairly good grasp of the intricacies of the English Language
You mean like this Pizza:
That I might choose to express one aspect of that totality of response (as Pizza undoubtedly did) different from (or more superficial in relation to) the variations of horror and anger and grief (or depending on the event, ecstasy, joy, exultation) et.al. I might also experience I see nothing inappropriate in.

I find it totally mind boggling that Mr Kleyn continues to pontificate and yet he seemingly has no insight or sense of embarrassment over his limited grasp of basic writing skills.

To my way of thinking that is truly amazing

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jul 15, 2005 12:32 pm

Ted wrote:I find it totally mind boggling that Mr Kleyn continues to pontificate and yet he seemingly has no insight or sense of embarrassment over his limited grasp of basic writing skills.
I thought he was using Babblefish translations.
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DavidRoss
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Post by DavidRoss » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:15 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ted wrote:I find it totally mind boggling that Mr Kleyn continues to pontificate and yet he seemingly has no insight or sense of embarrassment over his limited grasp of basic writing skills.
I thought he was using Babblefish translations.
And I thought he was purposefully parodying the pompous pundits whose prolix prose proliferates in public posts.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:34 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
Ted wrote:I find it totally mind boggling that Mr Kleyn continues to pontificate and yet he seemingly has no insight or sense of embarrassment over his limited grasp of basic writing skills.
I thought he was using Babblefish translations.
And I thought he was purposefully parodying the pompous pundits whose prolix prose proliferates in public posts.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Today's winning post, David.
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herman
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Post by herman » Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:51 pm

DavidRoss wrote:Like so many of Herman's statements, the one above is hilariously hypocritical, as his chronic attacks on Karl Henning alone amply demonstrate. He is expert indeed at being "very very nasty without ever using a rude word" (but will use them when it suits him). His antics on GMG embody extremes of every behavior he criticizes here and leave no doubt about his trolling. After waving his true colors so often and so vigorously, it's a bit late for some superficially civil backpedalling to restore credibility. Clever or not, as Aunt Gertrude might have said, a troll is a troll is a troll.

edit: I meant GMG above, and corrected it. And on second look I can see that I took a cheap shot at Herman in my response to Kleyn's post above. I apologize.
So, David Ross, why don't you look at what you're writing?

In your PS you say you looked back at your previous post and admit you were taking a cheap shot.

However, this PS, of course, comes after yet another attack.

Why don't you try to post without this kind of stuff? If you think you're such a good guy, surely you need to prove that every single time by pointing out who - according to you - are the bad guys.

I know you think there are a lot of bad guys, but why don't you just leave 'em alone?

What you're doing is just multiplying negativity.

Gregory Kleyn

Post by Gregory Kleyn » Fri Jul 15, 2005 4:13 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
Ted wrote:I find it totally mind boggling that Mr Kleyn continues to pontificate and yet he seemingly has no insight or sense of embarrassment over his limited grasp of basic writing skills.
I thought he was using Babblefish translations.
And I thought he was purposefully parodying the pompous pundits whose prolix prose proliferates in public posts.
You are really quite good, - and I most definitely enjoyed the righteous indignation of your exquisitely worded and cadenced critique of my style and character posted on page 1. With articulate and discriminating folk like us around to contend with one another, it becomes easy and in fact a great pleasure indeed to practice that old gospel maxim of "loving your enemies", - wouldn't you agree?

You're someone I can communicate with, - as I have with Pizza and others (who also try hard to loathe me) over the course now of many years.

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Post by Auntie Lynn » Fri Jul 15, 2005 10:28 pm

Hey, party animals, I've heard ahout those Mormon environs - you order a glass of white and they think you mean milk...

Go for it...

Gregory Kleyn

Post by Gregory Kleyn » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:28 pm

Werner wrote:Well, I guess I'm lucky in never having been exposed to that other board.
VERY lucky. You'd be a deer in the headlights.

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Post by Werner » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:53 pm

Gee thanbks. I like to think of it as maintaining my own standards.
Werner Isler

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Post by Ralph » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:24 am

Werner wrote:Gee thanbks. I like to think of it as maintaining my own standards.
*****

Something you do very, very well here.
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