A Horrible Irony

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Lilith
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A Horrible Irony

Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:34 am

Recent deaths of many US soldiers from Ohio units made me reflect about the price this state is paying for the Bush Presidency.

The last 5 years have seen the decimation of Ohio's economy (especially in the skilled manufacturing sectors) and now its youth is being killed in significant numbers.

One wonders if Ohio would vote for Bush now. Then again, nothing would surprise me. (You know, 'the price of freedom' etc etc)

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Re: A Horrible Irony

Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 05, 2005 5:44 am

Lilith wrote:Recent deaths of many US soldiers from Ohio units made me reflect about the price this state is paying for the Bush Presidency.

The last 5 years have seen the decimation of Ohio's economy (especially in the skilled manufacturing sectors) and now its youth is being killed in significant numbers.

One wonders if Ohio would vote for Bush now. Then again, nothing would surprise me. (You know, 'the price of freedom' etc etc)
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The deaths of U.S. service members in combat should be kept separate from criticism of the policies that led to the war.
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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:27 am

"The deaths of U.S. service members in combat should be kept separate from criticism of the policies that led to the war."

1) There was no criticism of the policies that led to the war in that post.

2) Why should they be kept separate in any case? Its that type of 'departmental' thinking that has been responsible for so much bad policy.

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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:58 am

Lilith wrote:"The deaths of U.S. service members in combat should be kept separate from criticism of the policies that led to the war."

1) There was no criticism of the policies that led to the war in that post.

2) Why should they be kept separate in any case? Its that type of 'departmental' thinking that has been responsible for so much bad policy.
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I don't agree. Obviously all military deployments into combat situations lead to deaths. Whether such American actions were or are wise is always subject to discussion and debate.

Soldiers don't have the luxury, indeed not the right, to question their orders. Their fate is dictated by the constitutional process that subordinates the military to aboslute civilian control.

Whether soldiers die in a questionable war or in a highly moral, deeply supported engagement is a matter of historic circumstances. To link our losses to issues of policy is to in fact blemish the nobility of the soldiers' (airmen's, sailors's, Marines') devotion to duty.
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Post by BWV 1080 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:12 am

Whether soldiers die in a questionable war or in a highly moral, deeply supported engagement is a matter of historic circumstances. To link our losses to issues of policy is to in fact blemish the nobility of the soldiers' (airmen's, sailors's, Marines') devotion to duty.
Very well said.

Of course the 20+ year decline of heavy industry in the Northeast, the spread of globalization and the cost advantages of Chinese manufacturing are all Bush's fault.

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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:46 am

historic circumstance ??!!!??? My cousin died for historic circumstance?
No, I'm afraid not. He died because Kennedy & Johnson held a simplistic notion that dominos would start falling all over the world, and that all Communist nations were part of one big conspiracy. Thats why he died.

Their deaths are deeply tied to policy decisions....you can never separate that. That was the way the 'whiz kids' thought about things during Vietnam and that is why it was a disaster. Too much rationalization, too little of taking in the whole picture and all the consequences.

I can hear the newscast now, "Well, today 8 more Americans died due to historic circumstances in Iraq ................."

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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:51 am

"Of course the 20+ year decline of heavy industry in the Northeast, the spread of globalization and the cost advantages of Chinese manufacturing are all Bush's fault"

Has he done a single thing to reverse or remedy any of these things?
Is Ohio in the Northeast ? I thought it was Midwest.

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Post by BWV 1080 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:57 am

Lilith wrote:Has he done a single thing to reverse or remedy any of these things?
What is the government supposed to do? It could crush the AFL / CIO I suppose :)

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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:20 am

"What is the government supposed to do?"

What a coincidence. Thats EXACTLY what Bush says.

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Re: A Horrible Irony

Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:36 am

Lilith wrote:Recent deaths of many US soldiers from Ohio units made me reflect about the price this state is paying for the Bush Presidency.

The last 5 years have seen the decimation of Ohio's economy (especially in the skilled manufacturing sectors) and now its youth is being killed in significant numbers.
Just how does "the Bush presidency" have anything to do with the fundamental restructuring of Ohio's economy? If you mean that somebody, anybody, should have stepped in to stop the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs concentrated in Ohio, it would have been impossible, absent a profound reordering of US national trade priorities and the return of disasterous protectionism (you know, the policy that exported the Depression to the rest of the world) to delay, not prevent but merely delay, the shocks that Ohio is going thru. And it may be some of the fall out from the blighted Taft "Complacency, Cronyism, and Corruption R Us" administration.
One wonders if Ohio would vote for Bush now. Then again, nothing would surprise me. (You know, 'the price of freedom' etc etc)
If two things prevailed, yes, I'm sure they would vote for Bush again: 1) The election were a national security election; and 2) the ground game were as well conceived and executed as it was in 04.
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:57 am

Lilith wrote:historic circumstance ??!!!??? My cousin died for historic circumstance?
No, I'm afraid not. He died because Kennedy & Johnson held a simplistic notion that dominos would start falling all over the world, and that all Communist nations were part of one big conspiracy. Thats why he died.

Their deaths are deeply tied to policy decisions....you can never separate that. That was the way the 'whiz kids' thought about things during Vietnam and that is why it was a disaster. Too much rationalization, too little of taking in the whole picture and all the consequences.

I can hear the newscast now, "Well, today 8 more Americans died due to historic circumstances in Iraq ................."
*****

You totally miss my point.

I'm sorry you lost your cousin as I regret the deaths of my service contemporaries in that period. But the sacrifice of specific soldiers can be viewed separately without politicizing their deaths in attacking what may have been or are disastrous policies. This is NOT to say that losses in combat -whether of our soldiers or innocent civilians- are irrelevant to understanding the cost of a war or combat engagement but that linking individual losses, such as this week's of Marines predominantly from Ohio, dilutes and stains their commitment which was apolitical.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:00 am

Lilith wrote:He died because Kennedy & Johnson held a simplistic notion that dominos would start falling all over the world, and that all Communist nations were part of one big conspiracy. Thats why he died.
Are we refighting the Viet Nam war, yet again?????????? Liberals love that war more than any other US policy in the history of the nation.

In fact the dominos did start falling all over the world, once the US proved it had no stomach for the kinds of wars represented by Viet Nam. Do you seriously think the 6 day war, the Yom Kippur war, the oil embargos, the Marxist wars in Latin America and Africa that dominated the 70s and 80s would have happened if the US had kicked Russian and Chinese butt in Viet Nam? I don't. People who like to throw away the domino analogy usually want to ignore what happened in the late 70s, 80s, and 90s to justify their contempt for US Viet Nam policy. Most likely your cousin died because neither Johnson, not Nixon, certainly not Nixon, fought the war like it was as important as they claimed it was.
Too much rationalization, too little of taking in the whole picture and all the consequences.
Every policy has consequences, some not apparent at the time the policy was implemented. You and others here are quick to hold up inaction as the virtue that would save us. 35 years of inaction got us in this fix, thank you very much. I've had enough of inaction for a while. I want some action for a change. Action, not inaction, lays down markers.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:09 am

Lilith wrote:Is Ohio in the Northeast ? I thought it was Midwest.
:lol: As a virtually life long resident of Virginia, I thought it was in the midwest too till a colleague from Colorado made me look at a map. Ohio would be midwest if the west coast were Colorado and New Mexico. Actually it is psychologically jarring to realize that when you drive out of western NY, you drive into Ohio.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:14 am

Ralph wrote:linking individual losses, such as this week's of Marines predominantly from Ohio, dilutes and stains their commitment which was apolitical.
The marvel is not that we lost any, but that we've lost so few. Considering this war has been going on for 2 years, we just cleared the 1800 mark. 1 is 1 too many, but considered against what people like Kennedy and Biden were bleating about before the war, thousands and thousands of body bags coming home to Dover that the administration wouldn't let photographers record, it's been remarkable for the low numbers of dead.
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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:52 am

"Do you seriously think the 6 day war, the Yom Kippur war, the oil embargos, the Marxist wars in Latin America and Africa that dominated the 70s and 80s would have happened if the US had kicked Russian and Chinese butt in Viet Nam?"


In a word....probably. We'll never know because we didn't kick anyone's butt in Vietnam. So your guess is as good as mine. What we do know, is that the rest of Asia did not fall 'like dominos' even after we got out.
The domino theory was one of the great political hoaxes of all time.
(See, Colyss is still using it !!! :lol:

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:29 am

Lilith wrote:In a word....probably. We'll never know because we didn't kick anyone's butt in Vietnam.
True, but there are some conclusions that can be drawn from inaction.
What we do know, is that the rest of Asia did not fall 'like dominos' even after we got out.
Two observations:
1) Who said the theory had to be restricted to Asia? It's a mistake to assume that tyrants do not note when democracies fail to follow thru in securing their domains.

2) Your assessment is unhistorical. Viet Nam went. Cambodia went. Laos went. Burma was already gone. Thailand was a near run thing. Indonesia and South Korea could be held against communist opportunism only by the installation of brutal dictatorships allied with the US, and the former is still incredibly unstable, the communists being replaced by Islamic fundamentalists, while the latter began to think maybe NK was not as bad as it is.
The domino theory was one of the great political hoaxes of all time.
(See, Colyss is still using it !!! :lol:
If it happened, it's not a hoax.
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Post by Lilith » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:10 pm

"Your assessment is unhistorical. Viet Nam went. Cambodia went. Laos went. Burma was already gone. "


Went WHERE Corylss????? Did you expect them to install a parliamentary domocracy with a Queen?
The domino theory was that they would fall to Communism controlled and dictated to by the Soviet Union. It was a theory of the Cold War era. It was a
'black and white' analysis because the world then was black and white. It doesn't fit now and it didn't fit then because it didn't take into account nationalism and historic national rivalries (among other things).

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 1:20 pm

Lilith wrote:"Your assessment is unhistorical. Viet Nam went. Cambodia went. Laos went. Burma was already gone. "


Went WHERE Corylss?????
Disingenuous, Lilith. They went communist whereas before they weren't communist. And in the case of Cambodia the communists were incredibly genocidal.
The domino theory was that they would fall to Communism controlled and dictated to by the Soviet Union.
Or China. It happend, Lilith.
It doesn't fit now and it didn't fit then because it didn't take into account nationalism and historic national rivalries (among other things).
Anti-western tyrannies will do just as well. Nobody's talking about communism as a viable competitor today, except maybe in a couple of Latin American nations. In many of the places at issue there isn't really any such a thing as "nationalism" in the sense we know it because they random areas with nothing in common cobbled together under the aegis of colonial powers. You can't speak of "nationalism" in Sudan, or Ethiopia, or Sierra Leone, or Ivory Coast, or Rwanda, places where the Islamofacists and or the Chinese are making great strides. I'm not going to be any happier about a Chinese colonization of Zimbabwe than I would be about a communist colonization of Zimbabwe.
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Post by Donald Isler » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:00 pm

Corlyss,

I suggest you review your history and geography if you believe that:

1) The Six Day War happened in the 70's or 80's, or

2) That New York borders on Ohio.
Donald Isler

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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:14 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Corlyss,

I suggest you review your history and geography if you believe that:

1) The Six Day War happened in the 70's or 80's, or

2) That New York borders on Ohio.
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Donald,

Shush! Don't bother our beloved moderator/owner/sidekick with facts. They're not recognized in Utah. :)
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Post by BWV 1080 » Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:40 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Corlyss,

I suggest you review your history and geography if you believe that:

1) The Six Day War happened in the 70's or 80's, or

2) That New York borders on Ohio.
In all fairness, she never said #1 and allowing for about a 40 mile stint through PA on I-90, Western NY and OH are close to eachother

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:13 pm

Donald Isler wrote:Corlyss,

I suggest you review your history and geography if you believe that:

1) The Six Day War happened in the 70's or 80's, or
I didn't say it did. :P
2) That New York borders on Ohio.
Oh, that pencil neck of Pennsylvania don't matter even to the Pennsylvanians - ask Barry. Ohio is close enough to New York to beggar the psychological map.
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:07 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Donald Isler wrote:Corlyss,

I suggest you review your history and geography if you believe that:

1) The Six Day War happened in the 70's or 80's, or
I didn't say it did. :P
2) That New York borders on Ohio.
Oh, that pencil neck of Pennsylvania don't matter even to the Pennsylvanians - ask Barry. Ohio is close enough to New York to beggar the psychological map.
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Ohio is far away from Manhattan. That's all that matters. :lol:
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:41 pm

Ralph wrote:Ohio is far away from Manhattan. That's all that matters. :lol:
That's the psychological map. You know the one, the world from a NYer's perspective. 8)
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Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:40 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:Ohio is far away from Manhattan. That's all that matters. :lol:
That's the psychological map. You know the one, the world from a NYer's perspective. 8)
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There's another perspective :?:
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