Hey Brendan, What's This Nonsense, Old Mate?

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Ralph
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Hey Brendan, What's This Nonsense, Old Mate?

Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:05 pm

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No way, mate! Slang ban overturned

CANBERRA, Australia (AP) -- No way, mate!

Australian Prime Minister John Howard has labeled "absurd" a directive requiring security guards at the country's Parliament House to stop addressing visitors and lawmakers as "mate."

And one of his predecessors has called it "rampant pomposity."

The ban was imposed this week among guards and attendants at the building in Canberra, Australian media reported.

"These things are all a matter of context, and that's why it's impractical and absurd to try and ban something," Howard, who in the past has used the term to describe U.S. President George W. Bush, told Australian Broadcasting Corporation radio Friday.

"There are circumstances where a more formal address is appropriate," he said.

"But in the same conversation you might start off calling somebody you've just met 'sir' or 'madam,' but as you become more familiar with your conversation and your exchange, you might end up saying 'mate."'

Hilary Penfold, secretary for the Department of Parliamentary Services, said the ban was intended to ensure staff did not offend visitors.

She later told The Australian newspaper the ban would be overturned Friday during her department's daily briefing.

Former Labor Party prime minister Bob Hawke was enraged by the ban.

"It's pomposity gone mad," Hawke told ABC radio.

Hawke a former union leader famous for his down-to-earth approach and for holding a beer drinking record while studying at Oxford University, said the term had been useful to him at official functions.

"It gets you out of all sorts of embarrassing situations," he said.

"It's got a nice neutrality about it. I mean, it doesn't imply any intimacy, it shows a reasonable level of respect. I think it's one of our great words."
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:14 pm

Aren't you a little sick of being called "Buddy," Ralph? And every year I must start again with my students who think it appropriate to address me as "dude," "yo," "homes," and now God help us, "dog."

You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.

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Post by Werner » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:45 pm

I guess it all comes down to finding something imortant to think about, doesn't it?
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:49 pm

jbuck919 wrote:You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.
Thanks for reminding me of what a character Fishbait Miller was.
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:18 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Aren't you a little sick of being called "Buddy," Ralph? And every year I must start again with my students who think it appropriate to address me as "dude," "yo," "homes," and now God help us, "dog."

You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.
*****

Outside the classroom I expect students to address me as "Ralph."
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:19 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.
Thanks for reminding me of what a character Fishbait Miller was.
*****

He was fired? Never knew that.
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:21 pm

No, Miller wasn't fired for calling the President by his first name. See below from The Congressional Record.

*****

TRIBUTE TO WILLIAM `FISHBAIT' MILLER -- (BY RICHARD PEARSON) (Extension of Remarks - September 20, 1989)

[Page: E3115]

---

HON. ANDREW JACOBS, JR.

in the House of Representatives

WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 20, 1989

* Mr. JACOBS. Mr. Speaker, it is said that John F. Kennedy gave to Pierre Salinger a loving cup with the following East Indian inscription:

* Three things are real--God, human folly and humor. Since we cannot understand the first two, we must do what we can with the third.

* William `Fishbait' Miller did an awful lot with the third. And it is to the credit of the House that Fishbait has a worthy successor in Jim Molloy.

(BY RICHARD PEARSON)

William `Fishbait' Miller, 80, the legendary doorkeeper of the U.S. House of Representatives, died Sept. 12 at his home in Greensboro, N.C. The cause of death was not reported.

He served as doorkeeper from 1949 to 1953, and again from 1955 until defeated for reelection by the House Democratic Caucus in 1974. From 1947 to 1949, and again from 1953 to 1955, he was House minority housekeeper.

He was most visible to the public when the president entered the House to address joint sessions of Congress. His was the voice that for many years bellowed `Mr. Speaker, the president of the United States.'

The job of doorkeeper, especially under Mr. Miller, was not what one might expect. Not only did he keep track of who was admitted to the House floor, but he also ruled a fiefdom that included more than 350 employees and an annual budget of $3.5 million.

His duties came to include escorting dignitaries visiting the Capitol and overseeing the Document Room, numerous telephone operators, five barbershops, messengers, pages, doormen, and cloakroom and snack room employees.

Mr. Miller was a protege of William Colmer (D-Miss.), a powerful House baron who rose to become Rules Committee chairman. His other close friends included former speakers Sam Rayburn (D-Tex.) Joseph Martin (R-Mass.) and former president Ford, who was a Republican House leader for many years.

But it was not only what became a powerful job and the help of influential friends that brought fame, if not fortune, his way. He was an enthusiastic socializer and an irrepressible dynamo who found no job too small if it involved helping a member of the House of Representatives. One House member said Mr. Miller `turned obsequiousness into an art form.'

He had a personality honed in a bygone era in his native Pascagoula, Miss., that many found endearing and others found grating. Women staff members were known to complain of his fondness for kissing and his assurances that he would be happy to help them find rich husbands.

He could be nearly dictatorial in maintaining what he felt were the traditions of the House and almost too comfortable in the public limelight. And he was nothing if not unique in his dealings with people not of the House.

Probably the best-known example of this hit the headlines in 1952 when then-Princess Elizabeth of Great Britain and her husband, Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, paid a highly publicized visit to Washington.

When she entered the House, he greeted the princess with a breezy `Howdy, Ma'am.' This caused a startled State Department protocol officer to order Mr. Miller to `straighten up and fly right.'

This advice seemed to have little effect on Mr. Miller, who had an unshakable belief that the executive branch did not give him orders in the U.S. Capitol.

As the princess gamely waved to House members from the speaker's rostrum, Mr. Miller was heard to bellow down to the floor, `Hey, pass me up the prince.'

Although many were chagrined at his permance, at least one good friend of Mr. Miller's was amused.

Mr. Miller told a reporter that President Truman later told him that he had warned the princess that Mr. Miller was a `character.'

`Well, Fishbait, I warned them and you sure didn't let me down,' Mr. Miller quoted Truman as saying.

Another of his more memorable encounters was with Rep. Bella Abzug (D-N.Y.) when she took office in 1973. She was entering the House floor for the first time, wearing her trademark broad-brimmed hat, when the intrepid, Mr. Miller barred her way, saying that wearing hats on the House floor was forbidden.

Abzug is said to have told Mr. Miller to perform an act that family newspapers have been known to allude to as a `physical impossibility.'

But if he angered one member of Congress, he impressed many others for many years. His knowledge of the Capitol, as well as possession of keys to every locked door in the building, led some junior members to hold him in awe.

He would hail Gerald Ford, then the vice president of the United States, as `Jerry,' and present him extra tickets to a State of the Union address that the Nixon White House had been unable to obtain.

At the same time, Mr. Miller could often be seen scrambling about getting almost anything that a member of Congress needed. He even had been known to baby-sit for the children of younger members in a pinch. No member of the House was `unimportant' to him.

Yet, by 1974, many felt that Mr. Miller's age had passed, and his manner was no longer what the House wanted or needed. He had not faced election opposition since 1949, but went down to defeat in 1974.

He announced that he was returning to his native South, where he planned to fish and write a book about his Washington years. A former Arlington resident, he may have left town in his trademark car: a 1947 four-door Dodge sedan. As of February 1974, he told reporters it had 275,687 miles on it and was running like a top.

His book, `Fishbait,' was published in 1977 by Prentice-Hall to favorable reviews.

William Mosley Miller earned his nickname `Fishbait' as a boy who was so small that contemporaries compared him to shrimp used as the bait they used to hook fish.

Perhaps the first hint that he was destined for greater things was the fame he gained working at Pascagoula's Palace pharmacy for 10 years during grade school and high school. From delivery boy and clerk, he took over the soda fountain, where he demonstrated the ability to hold 19 cones in one hand and fill them by catching scoops of ice cream he tossed in the air with the other hand. He also learned to hold and serve a dozen glasses of Coke at a time.

Among those impressed with these talents was William Colmer, who before he started his 40-year congressional career dropped into the pharmacy to sip Coke and smoke cigars. He helped Mr. Miller through junior college, then hired him as his driver during his first congressional campaign. Both men went to Congress in 1933, Colmer as a member of the House, Mr. Miller as a clerk in the House Post Office.

Survivors include his wife, the former Mabel Breeland, whom he married in 1937, and a daughter, Sarah Patsy Knight, both of Greensboro; three sisters; and two grandchildren.

[Page: E3116]
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:28 pm

Ralph wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Aren't you a little sick of being called "Buddy," Ralph? And every year I must start again with my students who think it appropriate to address me as "dude," "yo," "homes," and now God help us, "dog."

You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.
*****

Outside the classroom I expect students to address me as "Ralph."
Outside the classroom I am perfectly happy if my students do not address me at all. Failing that, I will settle for Mr. B...... or "sir." The military is still a very marvelous thing.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:07 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Ralph wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Aren't you a little sick of being called "Buddy," Ralph? And every year I must start again with my students who think it appropriate to address me as "dude," "yo," "homes," and now God help us, "dog."

You may recall that the most famous doorkeeper of the House of Representatives was fired largely because he insisted on a big "Jerry!" when greeting President Ford before the State of the Union Address.
*****

Outside the classroom I expect students to address me as "Ralph."
Outside the classroom I am perfectly happy if my students do not address me at all. Failing that, I will settle for Mr. B...... or "sir." The military is still a very marvelous thing.
*****

The pendulum has swung with regard to student expectations concerning addressing faculty. When I started in 1975 very many law students expected to address faculty by first name as they had done undergrad professors. Of course I was much younger then too, often only a few years older than most students if even that. Life was a bit more informal.

Now I often get addressed as "sir" even after I've repeatedly told students not to. I can understand that from one young woman whose dad is one of the Navy's top admirals but many are like that.

Usually by the second year of law school students with whom I have frequent contact will use my first name. As I've said a zillion times "My parents didn't put 'professor' on my birth certificate."
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:35 pm

Ralph wrote:The pendulum has swung with regard to student expectations concerning addressing faculty. When I started in 1975 very many law students expected to address faculty by first name as they had done undergrad professors. Of course I was much younger then too, often only a few years older than most students if even that. Life was a bit more informal.

Now I often get addressed as "sir" even after I've repeatedly told students not to. I can understand that from one young woman whose dad is one of the Navy's top admirals but many are like that.

Usually by the second year of law school students with whom I have frequent contact will use my first name. As I've said a zillion times "My parents didn't put 'professor' on my birth certificate."
Ralph, as you yourself have admitted recently, you are as old as dirt. What do you expect?

Though I do not have a Ph.D., I flatter myself that I am as fully formally educated as a modern person can be, so whenever I find myself in a classroom to maintain my certification or whatever, I routinely address my "professors" by their give name. They do not always like it, until they realize what they have on their hands.

In Germany, the usage of the equivalent of "sir" or "madam" is now archaic. It is a great loss, and I mean that most seriously. The formal form of address is also archaizing (as it was in English already at the time of Shakespeare, who by force of art kept it alive). My neighbors now without any particular invitation on my part address me with "Du." If I were a German teacher, thank heaven my students would still call me "Herr B---------," but the usages of the past that would have honored, for instance, Bach ("Herr Direktor") are now long gone.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Holden Fourth » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:07 pm

The use of the term 'mate' is so ingrained into australian society that it could virtually be considered a knee jerk reaction to any greeting. So banning it will prove to be very hard for the people who aren't allowed to use it

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Post by Ralph » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:42 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Ralph wrote:The pendulum has swung with regard to student expectations concerning addressing faculty. When I started in 1975 very many law students expected to address faculty by first name as they had done undergrad professors. Of course I was much younger then too, often only a few years older than most students if even that. Life was a bit more informal.

Now I often get addressed as "sir" even after I've repeatedly told students not to. I can understand that from one young woman whose dad is one of the Navy's top admirals but many are like that.

Usually by the second year of law school students with whom I have frequent contact will use my first name. As I've said a zillion times "My parents didn't put 'professor' on my birth certificate."
Ralph, as you yourself have admitted recently, you are as old as dirt. What do you expect?

Though I do not have a Ph.D., I flatter myself that I am as fully formally educated as a modern person can be, so whenever I find myself in a classroom to maintain my certification or whatever, I routinely address my "professors" by their give name. They do not always like it, until they realize what they have on their hands.

In Germany, the usage of the equivalent of "sir" or "madam" is now archaic. It is a great loss, and I mean that most seriously. The formal form of address is also archaizing (as it was in English already at the time of Shakespeare, who by force of art kept it alive). My neighbors now without any particular invitation on my part address me with "Du." If I were a German teacher, thank heaven my students would still call me "Herr B---------," but the usages of the past that would have honored, for instance, Bach ("Herr Direktor") are now long gone.
*****

Are you very sure your neighbors aren't responding to your comments with "duh?" :)
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Post by Werner » Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:43 pm

Apparently not "Sie."
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:43 pm

Werner wrote:Apparently not "Sie."
Things change apace in German. As you are no doubt aware, even "Sie," which is really the third person plural, is relatively new as the formal form of address. As recently as a century ago, one would have used "Ihr," the true second person plural.

I think I have have deserved both yours and Ralph's latest post. :oops:

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Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:29 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Werner wrote:Apparently not "Sie."
Things change apace in German. As you are no doubt aware, even "Sie," which is really the third person plural, is relatively new as the formal form of address. As recently as a century ago, one would have used "Ihr," the true second person plural.

I think I have have deserved both yours and Ralph's latest post. :oops:
*****

Informally but effectively the Occupation banned such forms of address as "Herr Dokor," "Her Doktor Doktor," Herr Oberst" and even - I'm told - "Frau" in many instances. My students from Germany, all lawyers there, tell me that going to a first-name basis at a first professional encounter is now very common. It's certainly the rule here.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:03 am

Ralph wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
Werner wrote:Apparently not "Sie."
Things change apace in German. As you are no doubt aware, even "Sie," which is really the third person plural, is relatively new as the formal form of address. As recently as a century ago, one would have used "Ihr," the true second person plural.

I think I have have deserved both yours and Ralph's latest post. :oops:
*****

Informally but effectively the Occupation banned such forms of address as "Herr Dokor," "Her Doktor Doktor," Herr Oberst" and even - I'm told - "Frau" in many instances. My students from Germany, all lawyers there, tell me that going to a first-name basis at a first professional encounter is now very common. It's certainly the rule here.
I shall have to look up the current rules for purely military courtesy, which in both English and French is not that far removed from ordinary usage ("Herr Oberst" would have been the way to address a colonel).

I must tell you, not necessarily just Ralph, that the loss of non-specific terms of address (the equivalent to "sir" and "ma'am") is nothing to be emulated. It has created the most extraordinary social conundrum in which it is a challenge just to get the attention of an arbitrary person. You would not believe the lengths the Germans go to to catch someone's attention (e.g., the customer who leaves the store having forgotten his change) without in fact specifically addressing him or her.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:57 am

I definitely remember reading long ago that in the Bundeswehr, successor to the Wehrmacht, using "Herr" before an officer's rank was verboten. That amused me because I have a fascinating CD of a U.S. propaganda broadcast to German troops featuring Glenn Miller and his orchestra where the bilingual hostess addresses him as "Herr Major" throughout the show.

We get a few German lawyers every year in our LL.M program for foreign lawyers which enables them to take the N.Y. Bar exam. They're not, I'm sure, a reflection of most Germans but they are invariably informal. And unlike some young American law students who balk at my invitation of address me as "Ralph," the Germans (and the Ruskies) have no difficulty with that. My Asian lawyer students simply won't do that.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:10 pm

Ralph wrote:I definitely remember reading long ago that in the Bundeswehr, successor to the Wehrmacht, using "Herr" before an officer's rank was verboten. That amused me because I have a fascinating CD of a U.S. propaganda broadcast to German troops featuring Glenn Miller and his orchestra where the bilingual hostess addresses him as "Herr Major" throughout the show.

We get a few German lawyers every year in our LL.M program for foreign lawyers which enables them to take the N.Y. Bar exam. They're not, I'm sure, a reflection of most Germans but they are invariably informal. And unlike some young American law students who balk at my invitation of address me as "Ralph," the Germans (and the Ruskies) have no difficulty with that. My Asian lawyer students simply won't do that.
They call you that because it must be a relief to them for once in their lives to be freed from the nearly impossible ambiguities of address in their own country. It is my understanding that the the situation is even worse in Russian, where they have had to deal with the inappropriateness of "comrade" while the older forms of "Gospod" and "Gospodin" sound about the same way "Lord" and "Lady" would sound in English.

Ralph, in all honesty, I would have to wonder how appropriate it is for you to insist on your students using your given name. The Asians are brought up with a standard of politeness that does and should make them feel uncomfortable with that. Way back in the 70s no less an illuminary than Milton Babbitt wanted his students to call him "Milton," no matter how inappropriate that seemed to any of us. Formality is an honor belonging to the addresser as well as the addressee.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:30 pm

Ralph wrote:He was fired? Never knew that.
He got crosswise of Rep. Wayne Hays for something. I don't know what exactly.
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Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:37 pm

jbuck919 wrote:
Ralph wrote:I definitely remember reading long ago that in the Bundeswehr, successor to the Wehrmacht, using "Herr" before an officer's rank was verboten. That amused me because I have a fascinating CD of a U.S. propaganda broadcast to German troops featuring Glenn Miller and his orchestra where the bilingual hostess addresses him as "Herr Major" throughout the show.

We get a few German lawyers every year in our LL.M program for foreign lawyers which enables them to take the N.Y. Bar exam. They're not, I'm sure, a reflection of most Germans but they are invariably informal. And unlike some young American law students who balk at my invitation of address me as "Ralph," the Germans (and the Ruskies) have no difficulty with that. My Asian lawyer students simply won't do that.
They call you that because it must be a relief to them for once in their lives to be freed from the nearly impossible ambiguities of address in their own country. It is my understanding that the the situation is even worse in Russian, where they have had to deal with the inappropriateness of "comrade" while the older forms of "Gospod" and "Gospodin" sound about the same way "Lord" and "Lady" would sound in English.

Ralph, in all honesty, I would have to wonder how appropriate it is for you to insist on your students using your given name. The Asians are brought up with a standard of politeness that does and should make them feel uncomfortable with that. Way back in the 70s no less an illuminary than Milton Babbitt wanted his students to call him "Milton," no matter how inappropriate that seemed to any of us. Formality is an honor belonging to the addresser as well as the addressee.
*****

Of course I don't "insist" on being called by my first name. But the interesting thing is that in virtually no law firm, including the big Wall Street and Park Avenue firms, is any partner addressed by any lawyer or even summer associate other than by first name. There are probably a few exceptions for mega-stars but I doubt it's common.

In clinical legal education professors do expect to be called by first name and that includes all of my colleagues including Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., who is "Bobby" to one and all.

So calling traditional classroom faculty "professor" is really a reflection of an historic dividing line that does little to foster a collegial relationship which for me is central to my role.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:46 pm

Well, as I pointed out, I automatically address my grad school professors by their given name in the continuing ed context (I still called Allen Forte "Mr. Forte). I do it for precisely the reason you indicated, to establish collegiality, but very often I am their teacher in that matter.

In your case, I have read e-mails of your students that you have posted here on certain legal matters. I know you always speak highly of your students, and more power to you, but frankly, I do wonder how many of them bear any resemblance to a nascent peer of a teacher as fine as yourself.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:22 pm

Being from the old school, I am uncomfortable addressing profs, even ones younger than me, by anything other than Professor or Mr./Mrs/Ms.

Like court, there are certain conventions of respect that the classroom situation requires. Addressing the instructor by his title and patronymic is one of them. Although I had a judge, whom I knew for many years before he became a judge, call me familiarly by my first name during a trial, he recovered himself and had the record corrected to reflect my last name. I would no more have thought of calling him "Jim," even outside the courtroom, during the trial than I would have thought of flying to the moon. There are just some conventions that ought to remain conventions, in spite of all the faux egalitarinaism and collegiality rampant today.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:30 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Being from the old school, I am uncomfortable addressing profs, even ones younger than me, by anything other than Professor or Mr./Mrs/Ms.

Like court, there are certain conventions of respect that the classroom situation requires. Addressing the instructor by his title and patronymic is one of them. Although I had a judge, whom I knew for many years before he became a judge, call me familiarly by my first name during a trial, he recovered himself and had the record corrected to reflect my last name. I would no more have thought of calling him "Jim," even outside the courtroom, during the trial than I would have thought of flying to the moon. There are just some conventions that ought to remain conventions, in spite of all the faux egalitarinaism and collegiality rampant today.
Well you've brought up a whole other aspect of the issue. The Germans have never used the florid honorifics to address a judge (they say "Gericht"--Judge), which are fantastically incorrectly used in both the current US and British context (where the lawyer typically says "your honor" or "my Lord" even when referring to the judge in the third person).

It's a good thing we have a bunch of atheists here or I would also have to bring up how to address clergy. Long ago, I learned to call either the clergy person of the church where I played the organ or the chaplain at school by his Christian name. It was again a question of collegiality and a peer relationship. But it never would have occurred to me to address the Cardinal Archbishop of Baltimore, whom I met several times, as "Bill."

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Post by Ralph » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:32 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Well, as I pointed out, I automatically address my grad school professors by their given name in the continuing ed context (I still called Allen Forte "Mr. Forte). I do it for precisely the reason you indicated, to establish collegiality, but very often I am their teacher in that matter.

In your case, I have read e-mails of your students that you have posted here on certain legal matters. I know you always speak highly of your students, and more power to you, but frankly, I do wonder how many of them bear any resemblance to a nascent peer of a teacher as fine as yourself.
*****

Your kind compliment aside, virtually no student comes to law school - or leaves it for that matter - hoping to become a faculty member. Even the Ivy League schools which account for a disproportionate percentage of law professors still have, numerically, very few graduates who teach full-time.

My school has at least a half-dozen graduates as adjunct professors and they're great but none will ever get a full-time, tenure track position with us or anywhere else.

The way I project myself to students is that I'm a lawyer who loves to teach. Too many law professors are fugitives from practice. I'm not.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:59 pm

Ralph wrote:Even the Ivy League schools which account for a disproportionate percentage of law professors still have, numerically, very few graduates who teach full-time.

My school has at least a half-dozen graduates as adjunct professors and they're great but none will ever get a full-time, tenure track position with us or anywhere else.
I think after my first year classes, the majority were taught by adjuncts, many of whom were "the Beltway crowd." My Government Procurement Law prof in 1989 went on to become an Undersec of the Air Force in the Clinton administration. My Bankruptcy prof was the bankruptcy judge in the infamous Inslaw case. Quite a few had been in and out of government like that as well as in and out of private practice and taught on the side. They revolved between government and private practice, mostly lobbying firms, and not between either and teaching.
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Post by Ralph » Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:25 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:Even the Ivy League schools which account for a disproportionate percentage of law professors still have, numerically, very few graduates who teach full-time.

My school has at least a half-dozen graduates as adjunct professors and they're great but none will ever get a full-time, tenure track position with us or anywhere else.
I think after my first year classes, the majority were taught by adjuncts, many of whom were "the Beltway crowd." My Government Procurement Law prof in 1989 went on to become an Undersec of the Air Force in the Clinton administration. My Bankruptcy prof was the bankruptcy judge in the infamous Inslaw case. Quite a few had been in and out of government like that as well as in and out of private practice and taught on the side. They revolved between government and private practice, mostly lobbying firms, and not between either and teaching.
*****

I'm not sure if your recollection is correct. Even then ABA and AALS accrediting rules limited the percentage of classes that could be taught by adjuncts. Notwithstanding that D.C. law schools have always benefited from the enormous pool of legal talent available to teach specialized courses related to government that full-time faculty don't offer.
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Post by Brendan » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:39 pm

Well, all I can say is that it's good to see the critical issues facing Australian society making the news internationally.

For trivia buffs, the use of 'mate' instead of the more traditional 'cobber' was introduced by Barry Humphries (Dame Edna) and co in the late fifties and early sixties to mock the Aussie character. I was raised in the working-class tradition that considered using 'mate' distasteful and middle-class - or, worse, from Melbourne.

These days they make 'period' dramas from the nineteenth century with all these cobbers calling each other 'mate'. Can our society ever recover and remain true to its core values?

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:46 pm

Brendan wrote:Well, all I can say is that it's good to see the critical issues facing Australian society making the news internationally.

For trivia buffs, the use of 'mate' instead of the more traditional 'cobber' was introduced by Barry Humphries (Dame Edna) and co in the late fifties and early sixties to mock the Aussie character. I was raised in the working-class tradition that considered using 'mate' distasteful and middle-class - or, worse, from Melbourne.

These days they make 'period' dramas from the nineteenth century with all these cobbers calling each other 'mate'. Can our society ever recover and remain true to its core values?
Your society, like mine, is beholden to Shakespeare, the author of the greatest language in the world no matter how it may have ben corrupted. Our "core values" include the fact that, in the bedroom scene in Hamlet, Hamlet consistently calls his mother "you" while she addresses him off and on with either "you" or "thou." Think about it.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Sun Aug 21, 2005 4:55 pm

As I'm currently exploring Ancient Greek and Latin, inlcuding the poetry and plays, I do not consider English the greatest language ever and any such claim to be one from ignorance. Languages have their own grace and logic, and I know precious little about so many that to claim superiority for my native tongue by virtue of that fact alone seems absurd.

Be that as it may, a sarcastic and throw-away line rarely requires a call to the Bard to restore graceful expression. Using 'cobber' instead of 'mate' today would invite ridicule, not a restoration of 'core values'.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:13 pm

Brendan wrote:As I'm currently exploring Ancient Greek and Latin, inlcuding the poetry and plays, I do not consider English the greatest language ever and any such claim to be one from ignorance. Languages have their own grace and logic, and I know precious little about so many that to claim superiority for my native tongue by virtue of that fact alone seems absurd.

Be that as it may, a sarcastic and throw-away line rarely requires a call to the Bard to restore graceful expression. Using 'cobber' instead of 'mate' today would invite ridicule, not a restoration of 'core values'.
As I am suffiently cognizant of Latin and perhaps a bit knowledgeable about Greek, I have no problem stating that English is the greatest language there has ever been by virtue if nothing else of its great literature, which is quite the equal of anything if not the superior of anything from the ancient world.

"He was not of an age, but for all time."
Last edited by jbuck919 on Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:25 pm

Brendan wrote:Well, all I can say is that it's good to see the critical issues facing Australian society making the news internationally.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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