Schumann vs. Schubert

Schumann or Schubert?

Schumann
8
42%
Schubert
11
58%
 
Total votes: 19

IcedNote
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Schumann vs. Schubert

Post by IcedNote » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:39 am

Wassup?

:evil:

I'm going to have to go with Schumann on this one. Even though I would admit that Schubert is the "better" composer, Schumann's music just speaks to me more. Dichterliebe is brilliant, and I would argue it trumps any of Schubert's lieder. I'm also going to give "Better Piano Music" to Schumann (although I'll probably get flamed for such a statement :P ). Schubert's is just.....bland to me. Perhaps it was the sonata form that did him in, but you at least have to give him props for trying to best Beethoven at Beethoven's own game. :D Orchestral music....Schubert hands down. I don't think there's any arguing that, but you're more than welcome to surprise me. :) Chamber Music......gggrrrr.....Schubert again. Did Schumann even write any? :P I kid! I kid!

So in my absolute subjective view: Schumann 76 Schubert 68.


Discuss :wink:

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Post by Lance » Sun Apr 23, 2006 9:43 am

Couldn't vote on this one. If you had broken the works down into categories I might be able to do it. The genius of both composers is just so huge that I wouldn't feel it fair to either one. I must have both. But I might break it down this way:

In terms of songs/lieder, Schubert gets my vote.
In terms of piano sonatas, Schubert gets my vote.
In terms of piano works other than sonatas, Schumann gets my vote.
In terms of symphonies, no contest. Equal.
In terms of chamber music w/piano, a slight edge to Schubert.
In terms of pianoless chamber music, Schubert.

I guess if you add up the Schuberts vs. Schumanns, Schubert wins, but certainly not hands down!
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Post by Barry » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:03 am

Lance wrote:Couldn't vote on this one. If you had broken the works down into categories I might be able to do it.
Same for me. When I was listening to more chamber music, it was certainly Schubert. But I have focused mainly on orchestral music for a while, and while Schubert's "Great" Symphony is one of my favorite pieces, I probably like all four Schumann symphonies more than any of the other Schubert symphonies.
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Post by jbuck919 » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:21 am

On various forums including here in the now thankfully distant past I've gotten into trouble for allowing myself a pantheon, and even putting my favorite composers in approximate order. The problem, you see, is that up to a point I think my order correclates with teh true order of greatness. That's the kind of snobbish, pretentious, pompous ass I am. God help me, I think Beethoven was the greatest composer.

Anyway, to get to the point, Schubert and Schumann have both always been in my top ten, and oddly about tied with each other. I listen to both all the time and my evaluation hasn't changed in thirty years. (If I differed with some people whose musical opinion I highly respect, I am actually rating Schumann too highly. Our friend Jack Kelso will be happy to know that I have never paid any attention to that level of compulsiveness, being quite satisfied with my own. 8))

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Post by Lark Ascending » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:14 pm

I voted for Schubert as the Trout Quintet is a favourite of mine.

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Post by Ralph » Sun Apr 23, 2006 1:21 pm

I can't choose between two great composers. Why should I?
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Post by lmpower » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:14 pm

We don't have to choose between them. We can have them both. Nevertheless, I find myself in sympathy with IcedNote. Schumann just appeals to me more powerfully than Schubert, though I enjoy some of Schubert and can't quarrel with any of the nice things said here about him. Many years ago I heard an interview on the BBC with Benno Moisiewitsch. The interviewer asked him if any composer meant more to him than another. He replied "Yes, Schumann." He compared Schumann favorably with Chopin and referred to the sadness of Schumann's life. For me Schumann's songs are more moving than Schubert, and the wonderfully expressive slow movement of the cello concerto is one of the great personal confessions in music history. Schumann seems to be saying "my life is finished, but life is still a beautiful and sacred experience."

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:57 pm

Lance wrote:Couldn't vote on this one. If you had broken the works down into categories I might be able to do it. The genius of both composers is just so huge that I wouldn't feel it fair to either one. I must have both. But I might break it down this way:

In terms of songs/lieder, Schubert gets my vote.
In terms of piano sonatas, Schubert gets my vote.
In terms of piano works other than sonatas, Schumann gets my vote.
In terms of symphonies, no contest. Equal.
In terms of chamber music w/piano, a slight edge to Schubert.
In terms of pianoless chamber music, Schubert.

I guess if you add up the Schuberts vs. Schumanns, Schubert wins, but certainly not hands down!
Amen. I was wondering how you would vote without breaking the works into categories. I'd give the edge to Schubert in symphonies, and overall prefer Schubert to Schumann on every genre.
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Post by lmpower » Sun Apr 23, 2006 3:26 pm

Let me put it this way: Schubert was more musically gifted, but Schumann is more of a soulmate to me.

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Post by DavidRoss » Sun Apr 23, 2006 4:22 pm

I know this will sound like sacrilege to their most ardent fans, but Schubert and Schumann seem almost interchangable to me and neither ranks high on my list of favorites. Though each produced a few works I like quite a bit (i.e. Schubert's late quartets, Schumann's piano quintet) I regard their orchestral music as generally mediocre and feel their ratio of inspired works to merely well-crafted ones is rather low compared to the composers I most admire. They are, however, among my favorite native German speaking composers of the first half of the 19th Century, and I would probably regard them more highly were I less familiar with 20th Century music.
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Brendan

Post by Brendan » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:05 pm

Well, since I consider Schubert the greatest musical talent who ever lived, at least equalling the quality of Beethoven's late works when he tragically died so young, this one was a no-brainer for me, much as I admire and adore Schumann's music. I think it was Schumann who danced around the room in ecstasy when he discovered the 'Unfinished' and saw how the symphony could move on past Beethoven. So if you like Schumann's symphonies, thank Schubert!

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:15 pm

Brendan wrote:So if you like Schumann's symphonies, thank Schubert!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brendan wins the Post of the Day Award. Good on ya, Brendan.
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Post by IcedNote » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:18 pm

Brendan wrote:Well, since I consider Schubert the greatest musical talent who ever lived, at least equalling the quality of Beethoven's late works when he tragically died so young, this one was a no-brainer for me, much as I admire and adore Schumann's music. I think it was Schumann who danced around the room in ecstasy when he discovered the 'Unfinished' and saw how the symphony could move on past Beethoven. So if you like Schumann's symphonies, thank Schubert!
My theory professor's favorite composer is Schubert as well.

I don't get it! :shock:

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:37 pm

IcedNote wrote: My theory professor's favorite composer is Schubert as well.

I don't get it! :shock:

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Listen more.
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Post by Haydnseek » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:44 pm

lmpower wrote:Let me put it this way: Schubert was more musically gifted, but Schumann is more of a soulmate to me.
Yes, you have to find the Schu that fits you best.
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Post by IcedNote » Sun Apr 23, 2006 5:45 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Listen more.
Funny comment seeing that I've listened to, played, and studied several scores of his. :shock:

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Post by Barry » Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:12 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:Brendan wins the Post of the Day Award. Good on ya, Brendan.
Corlyss_D wrote:
Brendan wrote:So if you like Schumann's symphonies, thank Schubert!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Brendan wins the Post of the Day Award. Good on ya, Brendan.
It's a nice line, but it doesn't really speak to the quality of the music. I suppose Brandan is looking at it from the perspective of overall greatness, for which influence would play a role. I was simply thinking of it in terms of whose symphonies I like more, and with the exception of the Schubert "Great," the answer is Schumann's. Schubert is the clear winner for me in terms of chamber music though. His piano trio d.929 may be my favorite piece of chamber music.
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Post by lmpower » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:35 pm

Haydnseek wrote:
Yes, you have to find the Schu that fits you best.


This should have been the line of the day! :D :D :D :D :D

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Post by Eternalstudent » Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:51 pm

I can't even make a choice between the two in the smaller categories.

Take songs for instance. I adore Dichterliebe as one of the greatest musical works of all time. However, many of Schumann's songs become piano character pieces with a poem and voice thrown in for fun, and Schubert definitely deserves to have his brilliance recognized in this category as well.

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Post by Lance » Sun Apr 23, 2006 11:57 pm

Haydnseek wrote:
lmpower wrote:Let me put it this way: Schubert was more musically gifted, but Schumann is more of a soulmate to me.
Yes, you have to find the Schu that fits you best.
That's an absolutely precious line! Thanks for the smile for today, Haydnseek!
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:32 am

IcedNote wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:Listen more.
Funny comment seeing that I've listened to, played, and studied several scores of his. :shock:

-G
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Post by val » Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:53 am

I think that both were too great to be possible a choice.

Schubert died when he was entering a new phase in his career, with a more mature and personal style, but had time to composed several masterpieces.

I would say that, although I love Schubert's piano music, in this area Schumann was more important, with his Kreisleriana, Fantasia, Carnaval, Humoresque, Etudes Symphoniques and the Concerto opus 54.

Regarding the Lied it is the opposite: I love Schumann's Lieder, but in my opinion no one has neve reached the Schubert of Winterreise, Die Schöne Müllerin, and so many other Lieder.

Regarding Symphonic music both composed great masterpieces: Schubert's 8 and 9th Symphonies, Schumann's First and 2nd Symphonies and the Manfred Ouverture.

Regarding chamber music, Schubert is, no doubt, the most important composer between Beethoven and Brahms: the three last Quartets - in special the Quartet in G - the string Quintet in C, the two piano trios, the Fantasia for violin and piano, the Octet.
Schumann composed some beautiful works, the 3 Quartets opus 41 - I prefer the 2nd - the piano Trio opus 63, the piano Quartet, the 2 violin Sonatas and the sublime piano Quintet but with the exception of this last work he never reached Schubert's level.

Since both were not very gifted to the opera, I would finish with their Choral music. Schubert composed the Missa in A D 678, the sublime last Missa D 950 and the Gesand der Geist übern dem Wasser. Schumann composed the Faust Szenen, the Requiem für Mignon,the Paradise and the Peri. An impossible choice.

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Post by IcedNote » Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:18 am

Corlyss_D wrote:Not enough.
Saw that one coming from a mile away.... :roll:

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Post by greymouse » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:06 am

I chose Schumann, but it was a tough call. I did it because I prefer his piano music and symphonies, but I agree with posters saying chamber music goes to Schubert.

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Post by karlhenning » Mon Apr 24, 2006 9:08 am

jbuck919 wrote:God help me, I think Beethoven was the greatest composer.
We love you, eccentricities and all, John! 8)
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Post by srappoport » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:52 am

With all due respect, I think that turning a comparison into a contest is ridiculous. For instance, at my memorial service I want the second movement of Schumann's piano quintet played. But I consider Schubert's quintet with two cellos (celli?) one of the wonders of the world.

I would never turn down a chance to hear Schumann, but I find that Schubert speaks to me more. I know that his symphonies are not the best things that he ever wrote, but a couple of months ago I heard a chamber orchestra tackle the Great C Major symphony, and it sounded nothing like the bloated, overstuffed warhorse that is usually plopped on listeners.

I refused to vote, but I probably would give the edge to Schubert unless I had some Schumann music in my head at the time of the vote.

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Post by Harvested Sorrow » Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:58 am

I have to choose Schumann as his music speaks to me more than Schubert does.

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Post by IcedNote » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:15 pm

srappoport wrote:With all due respect, I think that turning a comparison into a contest is ridiculous.
Contest? Um.....ok?

I'm just trying to get us all to have a little fun here. It's safe to say that it's POINTLESS to try and argue with each other about "who's better", especially between two of the greats. Hell, in some respects it's just as counterproductive to have a "contest" between Bach and the Spice Girls.

This is just, IMHO, a good way to hear what people have to say about these two composers.

Is that so wrong? Sheesh!

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Post by srappoport » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:35 pm

IcedNote wrote:
srappoport wrote:With all due respect, I think that turning a comparison into a contest is ridiculous.
Contest? Um.....ok?

I'm just trying to get us all to have a little fun here. It's safe to say that it's POINTLESS to try and argue with each other about "who's better", especially between two of the greats. Hell, in some respects it's just as counterproductive to have a "contest" between Bach and the Spice Girls.

This is just, IMHO, a good way to hear what people have to say about these two composers.

Is that so wrong? Sheesh!

-G
The poll turned Schubert vs. Schumann into a contest. The problem is that, as many posters noted, they each have their strong points and weak points. Also, it is quite possible to like them both.

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Post by srappoport » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:41 pm

srappoport wrote:
IcedNote wrote:
srappoport wrote:With all due respect, I think that turning a comparison into a contest is ridiculous.
Contest? Um.....ok?

I'm just trying to get us all to have a little fun here. It's safe to say that it's POINTLESS to try and argue with each other about "who's better", especially between two of the greats. Hell, in some respects it's just as counterproductive to have a "contest" between Bach and the Spice Girls.

This is just, IMHO, a good way to hear what people have to say about these two composers.

Is that so wrong? Sheesh!

-G
The poll turned Schubert vs. Schumann into a contest. The problem is that, as many posters noted, they each have their strong points and weak points. Also, it is quite possible to like them both.
One other thing, and this is something that I would appreciate very much if you or someone else would write about. It is that much of Schubert's music was not known to the public while he was alive. He died in 1828, but a lot of it came out in the 1840's, 1850's and later. Its disclosure had a great impact on listeners and other composers. Was this impact greater than it would have been if it had been published when composed?

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Post by karlhenning » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:42 pm

I just cannot wait until this thread concludes one way or the other, so that I know which of the two I need never bother with ever again 8)
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:58 pm

Eternalstudent wrote:I can't even make a choice between the two in the smaller categories.

Take songs for instance. I adore Dichterliebe as one of the greatest musical works of all time. However, many of Schumann's songs become piano character pieces with a poem and voice thrown in for fun, and Schubert definitely deserves to have his brilliance recognized in this category as well.
Interesting take on it! I've never thought of it that way. But having done so, is it reasonable to ask, "Would there have been a Debussy and a Hahn without Schumann?" I'm just thinking out loud.
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Post by srappoport » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:06 pm

Eternalstudent wrote:I can't even make a choice between the two in the smaller categories.

Take songs for instance. I adore Dichterliebe as one of the greatest musical works of all time. However, many of Schumann's songs become piano character pieces with a poem and voice thrown in for fun, and Schubert definitely deserves to have his brilliance recognized in this category as well.
This observation reminds me of a recent statement by a lecturer at a pre-concert lecture to the effect that composers like Schubert and Verdi used words as pretexts to write music. The music can stand on its own without words. (And so a composer actually wrote something called Song Without Words). The lecturer contrasted this approach with the modern approach of giiving, he thought, too much deference to the words.

Anyone want to comment?

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:20 pm

srappoport wrote:composers like Schubert and Verdi used words as pretexts to write music.
Did words inspire the music? Or music the words? Theorists were fighting about that in Florence in the late 16th Century. Prima la musica... poi le parole, as the ancient saying goes.
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Post by srappoport » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:24 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
srappoport wrote:composers like Schubert and Verdi used words as pretexts to write music.
Did words inspire the music? Or music the words? Theorists were fighting about that in Florence in the late 16th Century. Prima la musica... poi le parole, as the ancient saying goes.
If you look at a Verdi libretto, it is sometimes hard to understand what caused him to produce the music that he did, for the music is far more elaborate, subtle, and overpowering than the words require.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:29 pm

srappoport wrote:If you look at a Verdi libretto, it is sometimes hard to understand what caused him to produce the music that he did, for the music is far more elaborate, subtle, and overpowering than the words require.
I don't disagree with you. I just can't say for sure because I know them only in translation, which weakens the power of almost everything it touches, but I'm too lazy to learn another language just to enjoy opera. I do know that 1) Verdi was moved by certain themes, particularly father-child relationships and the Italian struggle to be free of foreign domination, and 2) the themes inspired the music, and 3) he worked over librettos a lot to produce words worthy of his music. That's not inconsistent with your observation that he used words to hang his music on.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jack Kelso » Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:48 am

Well, much truth and nonsense have been stated in this thread. The question Schubert vs. Schumann could also have been:

Schubert vs. Brahms; Beethoven vs. Schumann; Schumann vs. Wagner; Bruckner vs. Brahms; Schumann vs. Brahms, etc. etc.

Chamber music: Schumann over Schubert AND Brahms. Why? Schubert is pretty, but not terribly thoughtful. Brahms has 24 chamber works; is thoughtful, but not always inspired. Schumann has 19 chamber works---all are masterpieces.

Songs (Lieder): Equal to Schubert, added more weight to the role of the piano---wrote only 150 songs compared to Schubert's 600. Well, you decide!

Piano music: Schumann---he's the most original, poetic and powerful composer the piano has ever known. Chopin's is also filled with genius, but lacks the depth of Schumann.

The Schumann symphonies are above the first six of Schubert and equal to those of Brahms; Schumann made great, long-lasting chamges in the form (double trios in scherzi, cyclical form, etc.) and content. Schumann's music is "always thinking".

Choral: The most under-rated/underplayed of Schumann's works. The 2 oratorios, the Mass in C, the Requiem and especially the "Faust" music put Schumann even before Mendelssohn as the pre-eminent composer of non-operatic dramatic music of the 19th century.

All in all, I have to go along with the revisionist theory---Schumann is the "true revolutionary" (Hans Holliger) and "greatest of the 'purely' Romantic composers" (Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms)---according to George Szell, William Boughton and others.

His contributions are immense. He has hardly a single piece in his catalog of 148 published works that isn't a masterpiece of beauty and thought.

But one thing Schumann didn't do: he didn't dance and sing when he heard Schubert's "Unfinished" Symphony. That work wasn't discovered until 1865---Schumann had gone to the immortals nine years earlier (maybe it was the Great "C Major"...?!).

Best regards,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:05 pm

Jack Kelso wrote:All in all, I have to go along with the revisionist theory---Schumann is the "true revolutionary" (Hans Holliger) and "greatest of the 'purely' Romantic composers" (Schubert, Mendelssohn, Schumann, Brahms)---according to George Szell, William Boughton and others.
Okay, but how influential was he? What proof is there that successors were changed in a way that but for Schumann's influence they would not have been? This is a question that arises when I think of Bach: okay, he was a great musician, but if nobody except his sons knew his works, and they were busily escaping his style, until Mendelssohn, just how much credit can you give the guy for influence?
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Post by Werner » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:48 pm

The fact that his works survive as a core of the art and of the culture is enough.
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Post by IcedNote » Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:50 pm

See....this is the kind of discussion I was hoping for.

My planned worked afterall.... ;)

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:15 pm

Werner wrote:The fact that his works survive as a core of the art and of the culture is enough.
Well, I can say that about Alfonso El Sabio too. But influence?
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Post by Brendan » Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Perhaps it was the Ninth Symphony in that case. Schumann, who cried all night when he learned of Schubert's death, was THE great Schubert enthusiast and declared himself so long and vociferously. No dancing in Schumann's account, just being "thrilled with joy".

See http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/franzschuber ... 00011.html

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Post by Werner » Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:42 pm

I don't know what you mean by influence, Corlyss. If it is the spawning of imitators, is that significant?

I see Schubert's influence in the works of Mahler and Bruckner. Ohers may see something else or nothing. Times, fashions, styles and techniques change and evolve over time, and with that compositional materials evolve - or change drastically, as with the appearance of dodecaphonic music. I wonder what the composers on this board think on this point.

But one thing seems clear to me - mention Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Schoenberg, or anyone you like,- their work either stands on its own merit or not - not whether it was the child or ancestor of someone else's work.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:02 pm

Werner wrote:I don't know what you mean by influence, Corlyss. If it is the spawning of imitators, is that significant?
Yeah, that's one way of measuring the greatness of a composer: whom did he influence? If a composer is "revolutionary" that means he did something no one else before him did. Often that novelty translates into spawning imitators. I can't think of anything that Schumann did, except possibly noodle in a more dreamy, diffuse, and improvisatory way with piano accompaniment to his songs, that was different from others before him and may have influenced song writers that came after him. I'm thinking of Lizst, Brahms, Debussy (purely piano) and Hahn. I'm not looking for an argument, just wondering out loud.
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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:27 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Werner wrote:I don't know what you mean by influence, Corlyss. If it is the spawning of imitators, is that significant?
Yeah, that's one way of measuring the greatness of a composer: whom did he influence? If a composer is "revolutionary" that means he did something no one else before him did. Often that novelty translates into spawning imitators. I can't think of anything that Schumann did, except possibly noodle in a more dreamy, diffuse, and improvisatory way with piano accompaniment to his songs, that was different from others before him and may have influenced song writers that came after him. I'm thinking of Lizst, Brahms, Debussy (purely piano) and Hahn. I'm not looking for an argument, just wondering out loud.
Well, outside of "Träumerei" Schumann's influence was powerful in the extreme: listen to "Prophet Bird" from "Waldszenen", op. 82. It's pure Debussy half a century before the Frenchman; Wagner, Raff, Grieg, Brahms, Lalo, Tschaikowsky, Elgar, Pfitzner, Mahler, Rachmaninoff, Debussy and Shostakowitsch, --even Schoenberg and Webern admitted to being influenced to some extent by Schumann...and one can hear it or notice it in the forms they chose. Friedrich Nietzsche, once a Wagner-lover, admitted that Schumann's influence was "even more pervasive" that Wagner's, although he didn't mean it as a compliment!

The strongest influence in Brahms' music is Schumann's voice-- heard loudest in the chamber music.

Even in the symphony----Brahms' 3rd is oozing with Schumann's harmonies; Tschaikowsky's 4th and 5th were both strongly influenced by the form of Schumann's 2nd Symphony (as were Rachmaninoff's 2nd and Shostakowitsch's 5th).

In Schumann's Fourth Symphony (the first completely "cyclical" symphony) you'll hear the "Tristan chord" between the 3rd and 4th movements.....almost thirty years before Wagner's music drama. This work is also the FIRST symphony ever in which the first movement development section goes directly into the coda---- --without a reprise!

By the way, I meant the quote was from HEINZ Holliger--not "Hans" about Schumann being the "true revolutionary" of the 19th century. Holliger is a very highly respected Swiss composer, conductor and oboist---and (like his countryman, conductor Mario Venzago)-- a Schumann expert.

Tschüß,
Jack
"Schumann's our music-maker now." ---Robert Browning

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Post by karlhenning » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:35 am

And of course, part of the reason why the public received (e.g.) Brahms well (and part of why Brahms was encouraged in his own work) was Schumann's championship of his younger colleague in print.

I think Schumann's musical influence was important, of course. But his influence was also a matter of publication, and influencing public opinion.
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Post by karlhenning » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:38 am

Werner wrote:But one thing seems clear to me - mention Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Rachmaninoff, Schoenberg, or anyone you like,- their work either stands on its own merit or not - not whether it was the child or ancestor of someone else's work.
Excellent consideration, Werner. While there is a natural interest in the connect-the-dots aspect of cultural history, if our view of musical importance is overly colored by "who drew what from whom else" then we slight those important cultural figures whose work stands sui generis -- Berlioz being but one significant example.
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Post by Jack Kelso » Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:59 am

karlhenning wrote:And of course, part of the reason why the public received (e.g.) Brahms well (and part of why Brahms was encouraged in his own work) was Schumann's championship of his younger colleague in print.

I think Schumann's musical influence was important, of course. But his influence was also a matter of publication, and influencing public opinion.
Well, that's true Karl---that also played a role since Schumann was also famous as a critic. But that's "political" influence.

The Schumann's were searching desperately for a young composer to carry on Schumann's work, i.e. oppose the Liszt/ Wagner camp. Psychologically, Brahms had a terrific burdon put upon him by Schumann's writings about the role he supposedly was to play in the history of music. Much of what was written belonged to the category of well-meaning over-enthusiasm (of which Schumann was often guilty).

No other composer in history was catapulted into such instant "greatness" before he had written anything of magnitude.

Jack
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:52 am

Jack Kelso wrote:No other composer in history was catapulted into such instant "greatness" before he had written anything of magnitude.
No other composer in history so thoroughly rose to such a challenge.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by karlhenning » Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:08 am

jbuck919 wrote:
Jack Kelso wrote:No other composer in history was catapulted into such instant "greatness" before he had written anything of magnitude.
No other composer in history so thoroughly rose to such a challenge.
No other composer in history so hesitantly, yet so thoroughly, rose to such a challenge 8)
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