Strong Points and Weak Points

[BBow]

I was reading a Mendelssohn post and someone commented on the rythmic weaknesses of Mendelssohn, and I was wondering, do other composer have certain weaknesses? And what are some strong points?

For example, Rimsky-Korsakov is considered a great orchestrator, and Tchaikovsky and Gershwin are great melodists.
I also once read (I don't know if this is true or not) that Beethoven was not a good orchestrator, or he was at most mediocre. Again, this is not my view on Beethoven, just something I read!

Does any one else know of specific weak/strong points in other composers?

[jbuck919]

I was reading a Mendelssohn post and someone commented on the rythmic weaknesses of Mendelssohn, and I was wondering, do other composer have certain weaknesses? And what are some strong points?

For example, Rimsky-Korsakov is considered a great orchestrator, and Tchaikovsky and Gershwin are great melodists.
I also once read (I don't know if this is true or not) that Beethoven was not a good orchestrator, or he was at most mediocre. Again, this is not my view on Beethoven, just something I read!

Does any one else know of specific weak/strong points in other composers?

Welcome to the board.

Sigh.... Fools rush in, you know (meaning in this case me, not you).

To comment on only a part of your post, there are no rhythmic weaknesses in Mendelssohn of which I am aware, whatever "rhythmic weakness" is supposed to mean in the first place. He has his occasional dips away from the peak of Parnassus, as might be expected of someone who burned his candle at both ends throughout a life that was, like that of so many other composers, tragically cut short, but he is not susceptible to that kind of facile armchair criticism.

There is no weak orchestration in Beethoven. I have never even heard that calumny against him, and I don't know what source you might have encountered to be reporting it. There has never been a greater master of the orchestra.

[BBow]

Honestly, I'm not sure what "rythmic weakness" means either! In a post about Mendelssohn, somebody mentioned his common use of pizzicato (to mask the lack of rhythm?) I'm not sure what exactly that means.

As for Beethoven, I completly agree about his mastery. I can't remember the source, but I do know it was not written by a scholar. I just threw it out as an example. Guess I should be a little more careful when "belittling" the masters!

[Jack Kelso]

Honestly, I'm not sure what "rythmic weakness" means either! In a post about Mendelssohn, somebody mentioned his common use of pizzicato (to mask the lack of rhythm?) I'm not sure what exactly that means.

As for Beethoven, I completly agree about his mastery. I can't remember the source, but I do know it was not written by a scholar. I just threw it out as an example. Guess I should be a little more careful when "belittling" the masters!

The post about Mendelssohn's weaker rhythms were from me, posted on another thread.

Well, it IS true about Mendelssohn's rhythm being his weakest technical attribute, and any musicologist will know this.

But that doesn't mean it's BAD rhythm. He just didn't use it as a strong expressive vehicle (like Schumann or Brahms) and often his melodies sound like they've been glued onto a background of convention (e.g., plucked strings as mere accompaniment)---rather than the rhythm helping to shape the themes themselves. But his music is very picturesque and affecting---so he has other fine attributes.

Yes, Tschaikowsky and Gershwin were fine melodists, perhaps even great---but their brand of melody goes right to the heart; other greats have composed even more original and perhaps more deeply expressive melodies (Handel, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, etc.). Their music demands generally more listening experience to get to the core feeling.

As Schumann himself said, "Music is like chess: melody (the queen) is the most powerful; but harmony (the king)---that's what it is all about!"

Jack

[Harvested Sorrow]

I've never heard the claim that Beethoven isn't a great orchestrator, however, I have heard claims about him being "more of a symphonist" and being weaker at choral works and vocal works in general (with the Missa Solemnis being an exception). I don't agree with this.

[Jack Kelso]

I've never heard the claim that Beethoven isn't a great orchestrator, however, I have heard claims about him being "more of a symphonist" and being weaker at choral works and vocal works in general (with the Missa Solemnis being an exception). I don't agree with this.

Much of this is point of view---and whose view you're pointing to.

Wagner considered Beethoven's orchestration weak, and once began a plan to re-orchestrate the symphonies.

Mahler regarded the Schumann symphonies as "ineffectually orchestrated" and actually re-touched and even partially re-composed them! Some of these Mahler-versions have been recorded, but today are generally rejected by conductors who consider them wrong-headed. These conductors have the ability (and make the effort) to balance the occasional orchestral thickness of these masterpieces and make them "sound" on their own, thereby not sacrificing any original intentions or the schumannesque qualities of these works.

Brahms, too, has been unjustly criticized for his "orchestral thickness" or "sameness", but most of these comments have come from Lisztians, Wagnerians or their successors.

Beethoven was, indeed, more of a symphonist-- as he treated the human voice like an instrument (as did J. S. Bach to some extent), whereas Handel and Mozart were more sympathetic in their treatment of the voice. It has been stated that while Bach (and Beethoven) wrote for voices as if they were instruments, Handel wrote for instruments as though they were voices!

What we must remember is that all of these great masters were also human beings---and had their strong and weak points. And some "points" are simply a matter of taste and philosophy.

If one prefers the lighter piano style of Chopin to the heavier one of Schumann---okay; if one prefer's the more virtuostic, robust orchestration of Richard Strauss to that of Brahms---okay. Each expresses something different.

Jack