LA BELLE EPOQUE

[dulcinea]

Which contemporaries of Debussy and Saint-Saens are of the same stature? Chausson, Faure and Franck all leave me very cold.

[Corlyss_D]

When I read your thread title, for one bright second, I hoped that you were going to talk about the Susan Graham same titled disc of songs by Reynaldo Hahn. There are a lot of great song-writers and we have discussed them here, but for me, no song-composer surpasses Hahn for understated gentle melancholy and dreamy wistful loneliness devoid of self-pity. He touches my heart as no other.

[Ralph]

Well, I like Chausson and Franck very much.

[val]

To me, no composer of his time can be compared to Debussy.

But regarding the french composers from 1870 to 1910, I would suggest:

Duparc: his songs are the best composed in France before Ravel. "La vie anterieure", "L'invitation au voyage", both on poems of Baudelaire and the extraordinary Phidylé, are wonderful masterpieces.

Regarding the composers that studied with Franck and were members of the Schola Cantorum:

Chausson, with his beautiful Concerto for piano, violin and string quartet.

D'Indy, with Jour d'Eté à la montagne and Ishtar.

I would also mention Florent Schmitt (La Tragédie de Salomé and the Piano Quintet), Dukas (Symphony in C, La Péri), and obviously Cesar Franck with the sublime Sonata for violin and piano and the piano Quintet.

Regarding Fauré, I think his best works are in his chamber music: the two piano Quintets, the piano Trio, the lovely first Sonata for violin and piano, the two piano Quartets.

And last but not least, Chabrier, with his immortal comic opera L'Étoile.

[RebLem]

Well, I like Chausson and Franck very much.

I like Faure and Franck very much. Chausson is OK, but seems to me a lesser light. I also agree with Corlyss about Reynaldo Hahn.
And, of course, you forgot about some others--Maurice Ravel, and one of my favorites, Alberic Magnard.

[PJME]

It is difficult to survive in the shadow of Debussy and Ravel.
I like many compositions by Saint Saens.However,in Europe he is hardly credited as a " great composer", I'm afraid.
Many (most???) composers have an uneven oeuvre. Sometimes early works are full of invention and inspiration ,sometimes a composer repeats himself or has a late "flowering"....Some specialised in songs, others in opera or orchestral works.

French music in the late 19th century and the early 20th century is very uneven. Claude Debussy towers,indeed, above everybody.
For many years it has been a joy to explore the oeuvre of Massenet, Pierné, Honegger, Milhaud, Ropartz,Magnard, Koechlin, Fauré,Francaix,Chabrier.

"La chanson perpétuelle" by Chausson is a very, very beautiful song!

You may also read my post on Timpani records.

Over the years my tastes changed.
Going to concerts is always better.
Some performing musicians are really able to improve on what is written in the score.

[Reed]

I prefer live music, too. Lately I haven't even been listening to my thousands of recordings very much.

But there's the rub, innit? Most of the less "big-name" French composers mentioned here are hardly ever performed live, so we're dependent on recordings, especially on the smaller labels, to satisfy our curiosity.

I have been to hundreds (thousands?) of concerts, and seek out some of the wonderful French composers like Pierne, Koechelin, Honegger, Faure, Chausson, Roussel, etc., but usually in vain.

I can remember one live Chausson performance (the great Symphony), one Roussel orchestral and one chamber performance, one Koechlin flute piece, nothing by Pierne, one Honegger (the overwhelming 3rd Symphony), one Auric (cello Sonata), maybe two Milhauds, no Florent Schmitt, a few things by Poulenc and very little Faure and Saint-Saens.

I think it's a question of the conservatism of the concert crowd--"I know what I like and I like what I know." Thank goodness for labels like EMI France, Timpani, Harmonia Mundi, etc. for bringing this music to us, even if "canned" as opposed to live.

[lmpower]

I also thought of the Susan Graham album when I saw the post. I enjoy it very much. Hahn probably wrote the greatest song ever created by a thirteen year old. I would recommend Gabriel Faure first and foremost from that period.

[jbuck919]

I
Many (most???) composers have an uneven oeuvre.

We tend to forget this, which is why I, for instance, tend to pay no attention except to the composers who (after a certain point at least) wrote a large number of masterpieces and almost nothing else.

In the matter at hand, I like Franck for his major works (all two or three of them), but then there is the ghastly Panis Angelicus. Sorry, PJME, I do know he was Belgian.

[Corlyss_D]

We tend to forget this, which is why I, for instance, tend to pay no attention except to the composers who (after a certain point at least) wrote a large number of masterpieces and almost nothing else.

Yeah, that's fine for you and how you organize your time, but must you dump on others who don't have such a restrictive catalog of pleasures?

[premont]

this, which is why I, for instance, tend to pay no attention except to the composers who (after a certain point at least) wrote a large number of masterpieces and almost nothing else.

Certainly I pay most attention to the grearest composers too, but to neglect "lesser" composers completely is to miss an important part of the musical history, and to miss lot of masterworks, written by those "lesser" composers.

[Corlyss_D]

this, which is why I, for instance, tend to pay no attention except to the composers who (after a certain point at least) wrote a large number of masterpieces and almost nothing else.

Certainly I pay most attention to the grearest composers too, but to neglect "lesser" composers completely is to miss an important part of the musical history, and to miss lot of masterworks, written by those "lesser" composers.

I'm too much of a hedonist to say I'm only going to pay attention to the greats and only the greatest of the greats.

[AntonioA]

I like all six composers of the "les six" grpup. And of course Satie.

[jbuck919]

We tend to forget this, which is why I, for instance, tend to pay no attention except to the composers who (after a certain point at least) wrote a large number of masterpieces and almost nothing else.

Yeah, that's fine for you and how you organize your time, but must you dump on others who don't have such a restrictive catalog of pleasures?

I'm not trying to restrict anyone's listening pleasure. I am merely reporting what has worked for me. If anything, it reflects badly on myself because it makes me appear lazy, which to a certain extent I am. It wreaks heck with composers like Sibelius who are so maddeningly uneven, but then you don't want to miss out on the violin concerto.

[PJME]

PJME, I do know he was Belgian

If only we had more composers of his calibre! And César - Auguste Franck died a Frenchman.

But Panis angelicus is a good exemple of 19th century cloying, sentimental piety that we have difficulty understanding now...(Cfr Prière d'une vierge, Gounod's Ave Maria, Le crédo du Paysan,Méditation de Thais...) It takes very commited artists to make these pieces acceptable.

One last word for Dulcinea : I took out my old "Dictionnaire des musiciens Français"(Seghers, 1961). There is a wealth of composers who are totaly forgotten. As in most european countries, 19th century France offered many opportunities to travel and study.Schools opened, Orchestras were formed, opera houses built, wealthy patrons supported the artists.
I'm sure there must be good music waiting to be performed. Raoul Laparra, Louis Aubert, Léon Boellmann, Ermend Bonnal, Eugène Cools, Ernest Guiraud, Lazare Lévy, Henri Martelli ...nobody seems to care anymore. Why? Is their music really that bad?

[Corlyss_D]

Sorry, PJME, I do know he was Belgian

Peter, why can't you do quotes with the program softwear commands? Perhaps there's some setting you need to toggle in your Profile? Perhaps the BBCode setting?

[jbuck919]

PJME, I do know he was Belgian

If only we had more composers of his calibre! And César - Auguste Franck died a Frenchman.

But Panis angelicus is a good exemple of 19th century cloying, sentimental piety that we have difficulty understanding now...(Cfr Prière d'une vierge, Gounod's Ave Maria, Le crédo du Paysan,Méditation de Thais...) It takes very commited artists to make these pieces acceptable.

The problem is that as soon as someone debases himself to the level of Panis Angelicus, that is all he will ever be famous for. People will forget that he wrote a great symphony, a violin sonata, a string quartet, all of them masterpieces. No, all that Cesar Franck wrote was something I could dream up while doodling over my breakfast. A tragedy.

[PJME]

i should have read the BBCode much earlier..sorry!

[PJME]

JBuck, I hardly encounter these tear jerkers anymore. Well, not in the concerthall at least. They may still be "hot" at funerals, weddings and in radioprograms where politicians have to present a list of their prefered music...(unless they only like Country!!!) But they give some composers a bad name ,sentimentality gets mixed up with Romanticism!

[Corlyss_D]

No, all that Cesar Franck wrote was something I could dream up while doodling over my breakfast.

Can I be allowed some skepticism?

[Corlyss_D]

i should have read the BBCode much earlier..sorry!

Not a problem. It should make it easier on you and your readers.

[PJME]

It should make it easier on you and your readers

Well, I hope so! - More excersizes tomorrow.It's late already...

[jbuck919]

No, all that Cesar Franck wrote was something I could dream up while doodling over my breakfast.

Can I be allowed some skepticism?

I consider the accusation "I could have written that" when I really mean it to be the ultimate condemnation of a composer. However, in justice, I agree with Peter, and Franck should not be judged on one egregious piece. But honestly, what other serious composer can you name who had such a lapse? Ravel's Bolero is a masterpiece in comparison (and I could not have written that).

[Corlyss_D]

But honestly, what other serious composer can you name who had such a lapse?

I'm not overly fond of Schubert's Ave Maria, but I refuse to blame him because waaaaaaay too many people have sung it right into the ground. As for Bolero, the only thing that makes it interesting is the instrumentation. The tune is no better than the Carpernters' "We've Only Just Begun."

[jbuck919]

But honestly, what other serious composer can you name who had such a lapse?

I'm not overly fond of Schubert's Ave Maria, but I refuse to blame him because waaaaaaay too many people have sung it right into the ground. As for Bolero, the only thing that makes it interesting is the instrumentation. The tune is no better than the Carpernters' "We've Only Just Begun."

The Schubert Ave Maria is widely misunderstood as a true setting of the Catholic prayer. I once attended a performance of the real German Lied and explained to other people standing around that the text is a German translation of a poem by Walter Scott. One of them remarked, "Then how does it fit so well with the Latin words?" The only possible answer: It doesn't.

While I'm here, I also don't have any objection to the Gounod Ave Maria. I think it is rather clever and moving (and when was the last time you heard me compliment a modification of Bach?). I do have to ask how many people who have commented on this have actually recently heard Franck's Panis Angelicus. I had to live with it for years as a church organist and can still sing the whole thing through (both verses) in my head. But it is as bad as bad gets, like comparing Casey at the Bat with Milton's Lycidas. Nothing would please me more than for it to be discovered that Franck didn't really write it at all.

[val]

All composers, even the greatest, wrotte bad music. Cesar Franck is not the only one to be blamed for that.
What I don't understand is why, talking about Franck, people spend so much time speaking of a mediocre little piece, when we have the Violin Sonata, the Piano Quintet, the Quartet, the Prelude, choral et fugue ...
Would anyone, regarding Wagner, forget Tristan and Parsifal to talk only about his Polonaise for the piano (not better, believe me, that Panis Angelicus)?

[Corlyss_D]

The Schubert Ave Maria is widely misunderstood as a true setting of the Catholic prayer. I once attended a performance of the real German Lied and explained to other people standing around that the text is a German translation of a poem by Walter Scott. One of them remarked, "Then how does it fit so well with the Latin words?" The only possible answer: It doesn't.

So your objection in the main is textual, not musical?

I had to live with it for years as a church organist and can still sing the whole thing through (both verses) in my head.

You'd be surprised how easily The Oscar Mayer Wiener song can blot it out.

[Corlyss_D]

Would anyone, regarding Wagner, forget Tristan and Parsifal to talk only about his Polonaise for the piano (not better, believe me, that Panis Angelicus)?

And let's not forget the dreadful Centennial March he wrote on commission from the Centennial Exhibition. It's the musical equivalent of Picasso's drawings on gum wrappers.

[jbuck919]

The Schubert Ave Maria is widely misunderstood as a true setting of the Catholic prayer. I once attended a performance of the real German Lied and explained to other people standing around that the text is a German translation of a poem by Walter Scott. One of them remarked, "Then how does it fit so well with the Latin words?" The only possible answer: It doesn't.

So your objection in the main is textual, not musical?

The phrase "benedicta tu in mulieribus" (blessed art thou amongst women) is broken up between the end of a musical phrase (which matches the German) and the beginning of another.

I had to live with it for years as a church organist and can still sing the whole thing through (both verses) in my head.

You'd be surprised how easily The Oscar Mayer Wiener song can blot it out.

No, I would not. Another reason I am perfectly happy not to be a church musician anymore and don't want to assume the duties of a music teacher next year is that I literally cannot get tunes out of my head, and I go through the entire night with the silliest thing I have recently been exposed to going through my mind. Also, we retain words and music together in a different place in our brains than either separatedly, so yes, I can sing many many jingles I have not heard since I was ten years old. Well, maybe twelve. In grad school I discovered around the dinner table that there were three of us who could do the Rice Krispies jingle perfectly, and a capella. Find me a duo for companions, and I could still do that, Snap, Crackle, or Pop.

I say it's crackle, the crispy sound.
You've gotta have crackle or the clock's not wound.
Geese cackle, feathers tickle, belts buckle, beats pickle
But crackle makes the world go round.

Now I won't sleep tonight.

[PJME]

Coming back to Dulcinea's question, I would suggest that Charles Koechlin is propably a real great master,even if he doesn't really belong to the Belle Epoque. An artist balancing between the 19th and the 20th century. His music is unique and rather un- French in its seriousness and the scope of many of his compositions. The sheer lenght of some works, the polyphonic and rythmic intricasies,the philosophical /religious themes...You'll hardly find "salon frivolités".
Heinz Holliger and the Stuttgart SRW orchestra started a series of very commited recordings on Hänssler Classics. As with Bruckner or Messiaen you need a lot of time to understand this wonderful composer.
But you'll find poetry, passionate,eclectic music that never becomes pure neo-classicism.
His "Jungle Book" has nothing to do with Disney!!