Haydn String Quartets

[SamLowry]

I never learned to enjoy string quartets, and lately have been trying to put that in my past.

My first purchase was Haydn Op. 71 by the Lindsays. Since then I've acquired #17 and #50 by others. I'm sure much to the relief of everyone reading this, I am enjoying the experience.

What stunned me on Op. 71 was what sounded very much like obvious breathing? Is this unusual? Even in my Chev SUV on the highway, it sounds like someone has slipped into the backseat and is breathing in my ear (a change from Gould's humming).

On quartets I seem to like it when all four players get time in the spotlight, instead of for instance the cellist having mostly a supporting role. In The Classical Style I read that in Op. 20, Haydn uses a strict contrapuntal style, which makes me want to buy that next -- surely the cellist must have an active role? I'd be interested if anyone has suggestions for my future purchases.

I noticed in Op. 71 what must be Haydn requiring "harmonic" string playing. I'm not an expert when it comes to string playing or writing, but this is the earliest example of it to my knowledge. I have no delusions about me having accidentally "discovered" its first-ever occurrence.

I got interested in Haydn really because of recently reading (partly thru) Rosen -- I also have purchased some late symphonies. So far my favorite selection is the last movement of the Surprise -- it's terrific. In the past I've thought one way that I was able to identify Beethoven was what I'll call his sense of humor. Or maybe it's more like an extroverted personality. Possibly like the thrill of being on a roller-coaster? ("What is the composer going to do next?! Am I upside down now or the melody?") But it seems to me I hear very much the same in Haydn. I know few people on this forum will be surprised to hear Haydn has a sense of humor, but I just now feel a little less secure about being able to identify LvB.

[12tone]

A lot of string quartets or violin sonatas -- or just when a few instruments are used and the string is more up front -- there really is this weird breathing or 'cloth on cloth' sound. I first thought maybe the people playing had long sleeves on and the microphone was picking up the sound of the cuffs jumping about and sliding to and fro.

Or maybe it really is just the player(s) breathing through his/her(their) nose(s). If so, you know he's/she's(they're) working hard

[Jennifer Grucza]

Breathing is a very useful form of communication when you're playing chamber music. If everyone breathes together, they'll have an easier time playing together. Even with stringed instruments, where you don't have to breathe in specific places (like wind and brass players do), typically players will breathe along with the musical phrase.

However, if you're hearing a constant, heavy breathing sound, maybe they just miked the performers way too close or some of the members of the quartet are extremely out of shape!

[SamLowry]

Thanks!

It does sound like somebody is breathing in through his nose. Many times the breaths start approximately on a beat and right before the beginning of a phrase. There are stretches where I can't hear any breathing -- and that is often where the composer does not provide obvious breaks or stopping points for all instruments.

I need to listen again to the entire album to compare the various movements.

I don't know if I'm hearing more than one person.

[herman]

I seem to recall the Lindsays were a very noisy group indeed.

Glad you like those Haydn quartets, though.

With the exception of the Diabelli Vars I have never found Beethoven particularly humorous, certainly not compared to Haydn or Mozart.

[val]

Haydn string Quartets are one of the most essential and perfect expression of the classic spirituality.
My favorite recordings are:
- the 6 Quartets opus 20 by the Mosaiques Quartet
- the 6 Quartets opus 33 by the Lindsay Quartet
- the 3 Quartets opus 54 and the 3 opus 55 also by the Lindsays.
- the 6 Quartets opus 50 by the Tokyo Quartet.
- The 3 first Quartets opus 64 by the Salomon Quartet (I didn't hear the last 3 in this version) and the Quartet opus 64 nº 5 by the Italiano Quartet
- the 3 Quartets opus 71 and the 3 opus 74 by the Amadeus Quartet
- the 6 Quartets opus 76 and the 2 Quartets opus 77 by the Mosaiques Quartet.

[RebLem]

As far as I am concerned, the Tatrai Quartet complete set is the essential set of the Haydn String Quartets.

As yes, they do sound like they have asthma. LOL

[rogch]

Anybody familiar of the Takacs quartet's recording of the opus 76 quartets? Their standard of playing is generally very high. If we want a large collection of Haydn quartets without being ruined we can go for the Kodaly quartet's recordings for Naxos in some of the works. They have been generally well received, with good reason in my opinion.

[dirkronk]

As far as I am concerned, the Tatrai Quartet complete set is the essential set of the Haydn String Quartets.

Well, I'm not quite so absolute regarding the Tatrai for ALL the Haydn SQs, but I've never found any group that outdoes their op.76 for depth, thrust and excitement. IIRC, their op.20 is almost as brilliant. The other opus numbers have their moments, but are generally done at a lower energy level. Or so my ears tell me. YMMV.

In any event, the op.76 is AN ABSOLUTE MUST for our original poster--and yes, I would heartily recommend the Tatrai's version of this.

Oh, and FWIW, the Mosaiques are the probably the group that most impresses me for more recent recordings of the SQs, but keep in mind that I've heard only a smattering of theirs.

Cheers,

Dirk

[oisfetz]

One of the best complete Haydn SQ was the Schneider's SQ for the Haydn
Society in the 50s.

[Peter Schenkman]

One of the best complete Haydn SQ was the Schneider's SQ for the Haydn
Society in the 50s.

It would be nice if some enterprising reissue firm would take on the Schneider Quartets Haydn cycle done for the label Haydn Society. The sound on LP’s was good and I’m sure it would transfer quite nicely. The group consisted of Alexander Schneider, Isidore Cohen, Karen Tuttle and Madeline Foley, superb players all.

Peter Schenkman

[12tone]

What does everyone here think of The Angeles String Quartet? They did a complete box:


http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... l&n=507846

Anyone know anything about this group?

[Gregg Deering]

One of the best complete Haydn SQ was the Schneider's SQ for the Haydn
Society in the 50s.

I too am glad some one mentioned the Schneider Quartet. Some times I love them and other times I don't know what I ever heard in them. Besides Schneider SQ I might add that I some times feel that way about the Juilliard quartet. One other thing they have in common, Mann and Schneider some times seem sharp, or some how grate on the ear. I'm not a musician, so I'll not offer a technical opinion.

Favorites: Tatrai (though I'm told the early SQ records are terrible, I couldn't tell, I don't listen to the early ones too often) Amadeus, and Hollywood (live London). I also have some Takas and few live Lindsays CDs and a few others of lesser note.

Speaking of OP20 they are conservative works, where the cello is just playing the base line - again no expert, just working from memory.


Gregg

ClassicalDomain.com

[dirkronk]

What does everyone here think of The Angeles String Quartet?

My local library has this set. I've checked it out two or three times and have probably heard about ten of the CDs, to give it a chance. It's not really bad, but the performances are frequently more than a tad lopsided in favor of the first violin. And there's a sameness to the approach that seems to run all the way through that, frankly, gets pretty darn old. But is it worth buying? Well, let me put it this way. Since I had it--ahem!--in the privacy of my own office, where there happens to be a CD burner, I could have donned eyepatch and pegleg and, muttering "aaaarrrggghhh, matey," well...you know. I COULD have. Does it tell you anything that I didn't bother?

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Cheers,

Dirk

[12tone]

What does everyone here think of The Angeles String Quartet?

My local library has this set. I've checked it out two or three times and have probably heard about ten of the CDs, to give it a chance. It's not really bad, but the performances are frequently more than a tad lopsided in favor of the first violin. And there's a sameness to the approach that seems to run all the way through that, frankly, gets pretty darn old. But is it worth buying? Well, let me put it this way. Since I had it--ahem!--in the privacy of my own office, where there happens to be a CD burner, I could have donned eyepatch and pegleg and, muttering "aaaarrrggghhh, matey," well...you know. I COULD have. Does it tell you anything that I didn't bother?

Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV.

Cheers,

Dirk

Thanks for that Dirk!

I'll look into this Tatrai Quartet...althogh I'm a little worried considering their box set is almost $400. Wow. Like, do I need Haydn's string quartets that badly... *cough*

[12tone]

Here's the Tatrai coming in at almost too much for me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... l&n=507846

$400+ !!!!!!!!

[rogch]

Here's the Tatrai coming in at almost too much for me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... l&n=507846

$400+ !!!!!!!!

This might be controversial, but in my opinion you don't need all of Haydn's string quartets in your collection unless you are a very dedicated Haydn fan. If you buy the opus 20 and opus 76 quartets and one or two of the sets between you will have a very good and diverse collection of string quartets by Haydn. And if you add Mozart's "mature" quartets, you will have a very good collection of string quartets from the classical era.

I am not saying it will be a waste of money to buy all of Haydn's quartets, most of them are very good, but it is a question of priority and economy. I don't know how many Haydn records you own, but if you are to spend loads of money on his music i wouldn't spend every dollar on string quartets. For instance, there are many treassures among his piano sonatas and trios, some of them pieces you don't hear too often.

[dirkronk]

I think this is very good advice, indeed. In fact, after more than 25 years of collecting, I still don't have all the Haydn quartets in my own collection, and I don't feel impoverished in the least. However, I too would recommend the op.76 as an absolute "must-have" and 20 as a probable additional buy. And if the individual boxes of the Tatrai are available, I'd certainly put them high on the list, though I'd at least sample these to make sure that you're happy with performance and sound. Also, I think supplementing with other individual CDs of other quartets by other groups will more than adequately cover the subject.

However, no one should miss the glories of Haydn's piano trios (yes, I have the Beaux Arts Trio and no, can't think of anyone who tops them). There may not be a universally acceptable favorite in the piano sonatas, but these hold rich listening rewards, too.

BTW, 12tone, don't forget to check your own local library to see if they have any Haydn pieces for you to sample before you buy.

Happy hunting,

Dirk

[Peter Schenkman]

One of the best complete Haydn SQ was the Schneider's SQ for the Haydn
Society in the 50s.

Speaking of OP20 they are conservative works, where the cello is just playing the base line - again no expert, just working from memory.


Gregg

ClassicalDomain.com

Maybe you should listen to the Opus 20 set again and in the process refresh your memory. The cello is not just playing the base line. My comment is based I might add, on many performances of these remarkable works.

Peter Schenkman.

[dirkronk]

OK, I just cruised over to Overstock and found these:

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi ... rds=Tatrai

Twenty-eight bucks & change for op.76, ditto for op.20. Sounds a whole lot more affordable than the complete set route! And check other retail and used CD sites on the web. You might find 'em even cheaper still.

Cheers,

Dirk

[12tone]

I think this is very good advice, indeed.

However, no one should miss the glories of Haydn's piano trios (yes, I have the Beaux Arts Trio and no, can't think of anyone who tops them). There may not be a universally acceptable favorite in the piano sonatas, but these hold rich listening rewards, too.

BTW, 12tone, don't forget to check your own local library to see if they have any Haydn pieces for you to sample before you buy.

Happy hunting,

Dirk

1) I too own the Beaux Arts Trio box on Phillips of the complete Haydn PTs! Wonderful music? I'm currently shuffling between discs 7 and 8.

I also have the BAT doing the complete Beethoven PTs on Phillips.

2) Our local library is just that: a local library. I don't think they have cds...it's just a very small library. Might want to add that the library is inside a swimming pool complex; you know, just for a reference point as to 'what kind' of library we have.

No we're not in the boonies

[Gregg Deering]

Maybe you should listen to the Opus 20 set again and in the process refresh your memory. The cello is not just playing the base line. My comment is based I might add, on many performances of these remarkable works.

Peter Schenkman.

Thanks I have not listened to them in a while. I appreciate your correction.

However in pleading guilty, I do not admit to at this time, or at any other time covered by the statute of limitations, knowingly misrepresenting F. J. Haydn string quartets or any compositions by the above master.

Gregg
With benefit of council.

[SamLowry]

Thanks everybody, I just ordered Op. 20 & 76, Tatrai, through overstock.com. I have a feeling I won't be buying Haydn quartets again for quite a while now.

The only Haydn recording I previously owned was Anthony Newman playing Sonata #33 on harpsichord, IIRC. So I only had one more Haydn in my collection than Salieri .... or Dittersdorf. (By the way, where on this forum did I read about how Dittersdorf valiantly defended Haydn? I've looked and can't find it!)

Anybody have a comment about "harmonic" string playing/writing? I posted above that I believe I heard it in Op. 71. When does it first appear, etc.?

[Brendan]

I also own the Beaux Arts Trio box set - and any time I hear another recording I always prefer it. I thought the BA set quite the treasure when I purchased it, and enjoy them when I don't have another copy of a trio, but so far I prefer every single one of the alternate recordings I have. Just listen to their Hob XV.18 and then those by the Ensemble of the Classical Era or the Four Nations Ensemble. How they could make such delightful music mediocre, lifeless and dull to my ears still amazes me.

Sorry to be the nay-sayer, as the Beaux Arts set gets quite the rave reviews. There's always one, isn't there?

[dirkronk]

Sorry to be the nay-sayer, as the Beaux Arts set gets quite the rave reviews. There's always one, isn't there?

Quite so. And rightly so. I find myself in that position frequently. Different strokes, different folks. I'll readily admit that as much as I admire the Beaux Arts Trio's work generally--and their Haydn trio cycle as a set--they're certainly not the only game in town.

On vinyl, for instance, I have a box of the late trios on Decca/Telefunken (blue cloth box...the names of the players totally elude me, sorry) and I frequently prefer individual performances by them to the same work done by the BAT.

But on CD, I obtained the BAT set rather early on and haven't had the inclination to search for substitutes. I enjoy the heck out of 'em, at least taken one or two CDs at a time. And while I'll pull out the box and give a listen to the Hob. XV 18 you mention, I can't offhand recall being struck by ANY of their performances as "mediocre, lifeless and dull." But hey...we'll see. Or hear, rather.


Dirk

[Brendan]

Dirk,

I should probably qualify: when I first heard Hob. XV18 by the Beaux Arts Trio I thought "How wonderful!" Then I heard other versions, went back to BAT and, in comparison, found it mediocre at best. Even the whistling in the Ensemble of the Classical Era recording sounds spontaneous and fun instead of annoying. They're having a ball! BAT - purely in comparison - sounds like going through the motions, however well-written those motions may be.

Maybe just me, though.

[val]

This might be controversial, but in my opinion you don't need all of Haydn's string quartets in your collection unless you are a very dedicated Haydn fan. If you buy the opus 20 and opus 76 quartets and one or two of the sets between you will have a very good and diverse collection of string quartets by Haydn.

I disagree. I don't see why the opus 20 or 76 are better than the opus 33, 54, 55, 64 or 77. There are extraordinary masterpieces in the opus 33, n. 3 and 5 are an example, and the opus 54 n. 1 and 2 are among the best Haydn ever composed. In fact the opus 54 n. 2 is with the two opus 77 one of my three favorite of Haydn's quartets. I suppose that the first quartets, like the first piano Trios are not essencial, but since the opus 20
I wouldn't be able to decide what opus to chose.
Inside any opus there are quartets more inspired and others less inspired and that is natural. But that also occurs in the opus 20 or 76.

[SamLowry]

Harmonic?

[dirkronk]

Harmonic?

Speak up, Sam. Some of us are old and have poor eyes.


Dirk

[Inverness_Man]

For those of you looking for the Tatrai Quartet complete set of Haydn String Quartets, the following site looks like they are offering a real bargain!

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... m_id=45719

I've done business with them & they are reliable.

[Inverness_Man]

For those of you looking for the Tatrai Quartet complete set of Haydn String Quartets, the following site looks like they are offering a real bargain!

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/alb ... m_id=45719

I've done business with them & they are reliable.

I thought you Tatrai Quartet fans would be all over this $120 savings!