Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

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Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Ralph » Fri May 12, 2006 10:36 am

Report: Lone juror saved Moussaoui from death

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A single holdout kept the jury from handing a death sentence to Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in this country in the September 11, 2001, attacks.

But that juror never explained his vote, said the foreman of the jury that last week sentenced the confessed al Qaeda conspirator to life in prison.

The foreman, a math teacher in Northern Virginia, told The Washington Post that jurors voted three times -- 11-1, 10-2 and 10-2 -- in favor of the death penalty on the three terrorism charges that each qualified Moussaoui for execution.

On April 26, the third day of deliberations, the jury's frustrations reached a critical point because of several 11-1 votes on one charge. But no one could figure out who was casting the dissenting vote, the foreman said, because that person didn't identify himself during any discussion -- and all the votes were done using anonymous ballots.

"But there was no yelling," she said in an interview for the Post's Friday editions. "It was as if a heavy cloud of doom had fallen over the deliberation room, and many of us realized that all our beliefs and our conclusions were being vetoed by one person. ... We tried to discuss the pros and cons. But I would have to say that most of the arguments we heard around the deliberation table were" in favor of the death penalty.

The foreman, who was not identified by the Post, said she voted for the death penalty because she believed the government proved its case. She was the second juror to be interviewed by the Post since the trial ended. The first juror said he voted for life in prison because he thought that Moussaoui, 37, had only a marginal role in the September 11, 2001, attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon.

U.S. District Judge Leonie Brinkema had ordered the identities of the jurors withheld for security reasons. The Post said the foreman contacted the newspaper and was interviewed on the condition of anonymity by a reporter who recognized her from the trial.

After the jury of nine men and three women rejected the government's appeal for the death penalty for Moussaoui, Brinkema gave him six life sentences, to run as two consecutive life terms in the federal supermax prison at Florence, Colorado.

In a motion filed Monday, Moussaoui said he lied on the witness stand about being involved in the terrorist plot and wanted to withdraw his guilty plea and go to trial. The judge turned him down. (Full story)
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Corlyss_D » Fri May 12, 2006 11:58 am

Ralph wrote: "But there was no yelling," she said
I'm making up for that right now. This is another vote for dumping the whole damn antiquated screwed up jury system.
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Ralph » Fri May 12, 2006 12:46 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote: "But there was no yelling," she said
I'm making up for that right now. This is another vote for dumping the whole damn antiquated screwed up jury system.
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You're right. let's deal with these terrorists, real or imagined, as Stalin did with his foes, almost always imagined.
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Post by Haydnseek » Fri May 12, 2006 1:16 pm

There was a lot of speculation about the verdict saying that the jurors had fallen for the "he had an unhappy childhood" defense, etc. It now appears all but one juror took a hard line and he was focused on the defendent's roll in the plot, not the touchy-feely stuff. I'm just a bit less worried about whether people have the nerves to confront terrorism than I was right after the verdict was announced. The pundits should have held their fire until they knew more.
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri May 12, 2006 1:26 pm

This is why we need juries until the next case where there is no such courageous holdout and a man who has not committed a capital crime (even assuming that "captial crime" is an acceptable concept in modern times) is actually sentenced to death. I doubt very much that a judge or panel of judges would ever have imposed the death penalty; we just got lucky this time.

Which is not to say I favor abolishing juries. In balance, they are crucial to our system of justice not to mention democracy, mom, and apple pie. But in this case it was just a stroke of wild luck that we didn't end up with a judicially sanctioned lynch mob.

Edited to change "never" to "ever."
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Corlyss_D » Fri May 12, 2006 1:38 pm

Ralph wrote:You're right. let's deal with these terrorists, real or imagined, as Stalin did with his foes, almost always imagined.
This guy was hardly an "imagined" terrorist, Ralph, even for a death penalty foe. Seems to me conspiracy to commit mass murder carries the same sentence as actually flying planes into the WTC and Pentagon. Regardless of what you think of the (misguided) effort to prosecute terrorists in civil courts, it does not equate to Stalin's behavior by any stretch.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri May 12, 2006 1:42 pm

jbuck919 wrote: In balance, they are crucial to our system of justice not to mention democracy.
That's a matter of opinion. They are a vestige of democracy's infancy, invented when there wasn't much equality among citizens, and they have become dumbed-down excuses for emotional victimhood, played on by skillful actors with JDs.
judicially sanctioned lynch mob.
What a silly idea.
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Post by jbuck919 » Fri May 12, 2006 2:40 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
What a silly idea.
And exactly what would you call a death sentence meted out merely because someone who was involved is conveniently in hand when all the principal perpetrators are beyond justice or happened to lose their own lives in the commission of the crime?

I call that a lynching mentality.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri May 12, 2006 2:55 pm

jbuck919 wrote:And exactly what would you call a death sentence meted out merely because someone who was involved is conveniently in hand when all the principal perpetrators are beyond justice or happened to lose their own lives in the commission of the crime?
Justice.
I call that a lynching mentality.
Well, you can call it 'tapioca' for it's relevance to the facts and the need for society to have a stark and impressive accounting for monumental misdeeds. It's just more corruption of the language. We all know you haven't seen or heard of the crime yet that merits the death penalty.
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Ralph » Fri May 12, 2006 2:56 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:You're right. let's deal with these terrorists, real or imagined, as Stalin did with his foes, almost always imagined.
This guy was hardly an "imagined" terrorist, Ralph, even for a death penalty foe. Seems to me conspiracy to commit mass murder carries the same sentence as actually flying planes into the WTC and Pentagon. Regardless of what you think of the (misguided) effort to prosecute terrorists in civil courts, it does not equate to Stalin's behavior by any stretch.
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You totally misunderstood my sarcastic response. :)
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Post by Ralph » Fri May 12, 2006 2:58 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:And exactly what would you call a death sentence meted out merely because someone who was involved is conveniently in hand when all the principal perpetrators are beyond justice or happened to lose their own lives in the commission of the crime?
Justice.
I call that a lynching mentality.
Well, you can call it 'tapioca' for it's relevance to the facts and the need for society to have a stark and impressive accounting for monumental misdeeds. It's just more corruption of the language. We all know you haven't seen or heard of the crime yet that merits the death penalty.
*****

The defendant's eligibility for the death sentence was established by the jury's verdict of guilty. That others equally or more culpable were unavailable for one reason or another has no legal relevance with regard to determining this man's sanction.
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Corlyss_D » Fri May 12, 2006 2:58 pm

Ralph wrote:You totally misunderstood my sarcastic response. :)
You enjoy doing that, don't you! :P

Your Straightwoman.
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Re: Ouch for Many But This Is Why Juries Matter

Post by Ralph » Fri May 12, 2006 3:03 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:You totally misunderstood my sarcastic response. :)
You enjoy doing that, don't you! :P

Your Straightwoman.
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Well, I've been out of the classroom since early December so I have to keep my skills up.
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Post by Lilith » Fri May 12, 2006 3:43 pm

"We all know you haven't seen or heard of the crime yet that merits the death penalty." Corlyss

Many of your right wing posts, Corlyss, merit the death penalty in my view!
:wink:

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Post by jack stowaway » Fri May 12, 2006 8:34 pm

The jury delivered the only appropriate verdict. The decision for life imprisonment was greeted with relief and gratitude by victims' families in Australia and the UK.

Why? Because executing the defendent would have created a martyr and provided some weird justification for claims that Islam is being persecuted. It also takes appropriate recognition of the man's precarious mental status. More fundamentally, the verdict also negates his desire for a 'glorious' martydom in the service of his evil cause.

Far better to let the miscreant rot in solitary isolation for the rest of his miserable existence. Deprived of the oxygen of publicity (and Islamic-radical celebrityhood) he will have 30-years or more to reflect on the costs of his perverted ideology. His fate will also act as a standing reminder of what lies in store for jihadists and their fellow-travellers.

Such is a far more onerous punishment than a quick and painless death.

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Post by Werner » Fri May 12, 2006 8:50 pm

Congratulations, Jack, for bringing the discussion back into focus. As I see it, you are absolutely right, and the fancied martyrdom for this miserable wretch is replaced by an extended opportunity to contemplate his miserable ambitions in solitary confinement.
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Post by lmpower » Fri May 12, 2006 10:03 pm

I am also satisfied with life in a maximum security prison for this twisted man. The Los Angeles Times ran an article describing the conditions at the Colorado facility where he will spend the rest of his days.

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Post by jbuck919 » Sat May 13, 2006 7:44 am

Werner wrote:Congratulations, Jack, for bringing the discussion back into focus. As I see it, you are absolutely right, and the fancied martyrdom for this miserable wretch is replaced by an extended opportunity to contemplate his miserable ambitions in solitary confinement.
I hate to be the one to spoil the fun here, but Jack's conclusion is based on the fallacy that what happened happened inevitably. In fact, they came damn close to sending the guy to his death.

I am not trying to excuse any crime here, but if we would all look at ourselves for a moment, the attitude that one deserves to rot in hell for (at least to the limits of mortality) eternity is precisely equal to the attitude that some people deserve to die for their crimes. In other words, outmoded, barbaric, and unworthy of a modern civilized people (thank you for the thought from 75 years ago, Clarence Darrow). Andre Sakharov, the Russian physicist and dissident, said it bluntly: "I consider life imprisonment without possibility of parole the equivalent of the death penalty." And he did not mean because it is just as good.

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Post by lmpower » Sat May 13, 2006 9:15 am

Another reason to put this man away is to protect the public from what he would like to do. I realize this is a dangerous approach, but letting a mad dog run free is also dangerous.

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Post by Ralph » Sat May 13, 2006 9:43 am

Moussaoui begins sentence at Supermax prison

(CNN) -- Convicted al Qaeda conspirator Zacarias Moussaoui on Saturday began serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole at a maximum-security prison in Colorado, the U.S. Marshals Service said.

Moussaoui was removed from the Alexandria, Virginia, detention center on Friday night and flown to Colorado on a service nicknamed "Con Air."

A team of deputy U.S. marshals delivered him early Saturday to the federal Supermax prison in Florence, Colorado. The prison is sometimes called the "Alcatraz in the Rockies."

"It is a place of extraordinary security, 23 hours a day in cells, one hour of recreation, with music by people like Elliott Carter and John Cage being played all day on large speakers," CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin said at the time of Moussaoui's sentencing earlier this month in U.S. District Court in Alexandria.

"It is as close to permanent solitary confinement as exists in our prison system," Toobin said.

The Frenchman of Moroccan descent pleaded guilty more than a year ago to six counts of terrorism conspiracy connected to the September 11, 2001 attacks, but he was not charged with direct involvement in the plot.

The government sought to impose the death penalty, but a jury sentenced him instead to life in prison without the possibility of parole. (Full Story)

Through his court-appointed attorneys, Moussaoui sought to appeal a court order denying him a chance to withdraw his guilty plea and request a new trial. (Full story)

Moussaoui asked the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to intervene. U.S. District Court Judge Leonie Brinkema earlier rejected Moussaoui's effort to have his case reheard by a jury.

Brinkema noted that federal law prohibits defendants from withdrawing guilty pleas after sentencing. A plea may only be set aside on appeal, prompting his motion to the 4th Circuit.

Legal experts at the time of his latest motion said Moussaoui's chances of success were extremely remote.
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Post by Werner » Sat May 13, 2006 10:01 am

John, I've read your thoughtful post - but what are you getting at? Are you in favor of the death penalty for Moussawi, in which case you're not alone - I don't think there is any excesssive sympathy for him here. I seem to gather that you're not too keen on this "life without possibility of parole" sentence.

What oher alternatives do you see?
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Post by jbuck919 » Sat May 13, 2006 10:21 am

Werner wrote:John, I've read your thoughtful post - but what are you getting at? Are you in favor of the death penalty for Moussawi, in which case you're not alone - I don't think there is any excesssive sympathy for him here. I seem to gather that you're not too keen on this "life without possibility of parole" sentence.

What oher alternatives do you see?
Evidently I did not make myself clear. The man deserves the strictest sentence with at best repeated hearings to determine whether he should remain in jail, which is exactly what, for instance, a monster like Charles Manson has received. He does not deserve what some people are assuming that will be, a fate worse than death. That is the mentality that guides the vengeance aspect of our body politic, a mentality that if carried to its logical end would lead us back to death by slow torture, drawing and quartering, etc. On top of that, it is not right to spare his life to prevent a martyrdom. It is right to spare it because that is the civilized thing to do.

I mentioned Clarence Darrow, whose second most famous case was Leopold and Loeb. They committed an unspeakable crime in murdering a young boy just for the fun of it. One of them ended up being killed in prison anyway, but the other was eventually released to a harmless and even useful existence. Robert Stroud, the famous Birdman of Alcatraz, was denied parole up to his last appeal because he remained a hideous unrepentent criminal who would have been a danger to society even into old age.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 2:27 pm

jack stowaway wrote:Why? Because executing the defendent would have created a martyr and provided some weird justification for claims that Islam is being persecuted. It also takes appropriate recognition of the man's precarious mental status. More fundamentally, the verdict also negates his desire for a 'glorious' martydom in the service of his evil cause.
I know this is just a matter of opinion, Jack, and your other conservative credentials are excellent, but I think this like of thinking is just bull crap. You have to consider whom you're dealing: the target audience doesn't look on life in prison as "the enlightened act of an honorable enemy." They look on it as additional confirming evidence that we don't have the stones to do what has to be done in the fight against them and that they will eventually win because of our weakness. When you guys catch 'em and prosecute 'em, you can do whatever you want with them, including the pampering that life in prison represents for the crime of mass murder. When we catch 'em, we should kill 'em, preferably before the silly civilian criminal justice system get its hands on them. It's a great relief that Moussoaui is probably the dimmest bulb in the al Qaeda operation; if he were another Ramsi Yussef, he would be a continued threat even in prison, from which Yussef ran the operation that brought down Flight 800 over NYC. Moussoaui, like Yussef, will not be prohibited visitors, including family and like-minded attorneys. Our only salvation is that he is so dumb.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 2:40 pm

jbuck919 wrote:I am not trying to excuse any crime here, but if we would all look at ourselves for a moment, the attitude that one deserves to rot in hell for (at least to the limits of mortality) eternity is precisely equal to the attitude that some people deserve to die for their crimes. In other words, outmoded, barbaric, and unworthy of a modern civilized people (thank you for the thought from 75 years ago, Clarence Darrow). Andre Sakharov, the Russian physicist and dissident, said it bluntly: "I consider life imprisonment without possibility of parole the equivalent of the death penalty." And he did not mean because it is just as good.
Your capacity for sanctimonious drivel knows no bounds.
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Post by Werner » Sat May 13, 2006 2:48 pm

Yeah rght, Corlyss - stones, gonads, whatever - the primal urge "let's kill'em" - we're such he-men! bull crap? Right!

It's cheap shot twaddle, all of that. It's no wonder that Texas was the death penalty capital for a long time - while it was also the murder capital of the US. Don't know whether that's still the case, but evidently the theory of the death penalty as a preventive doesn't hold water. Primitive revenge - ah, that's different.

Of course, then there's the bull about the luxurious existence, three squares daily, enatertainment, and all that. Wanna try solitary confinement, twenty-three hours daily in a soundproof cell? By all accounts, that must be worse punishment than a quick and efficient death - with martyrdom thrown in for the fanatics.

Which brings me back to John's post. What's the alternative? You can't be thinking of letting a perverted fanatic like this guy run free, regardless of what miserable childhood he had, can you?
Werner Isler

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 3:05 pm

Werner wrote:It's cheap shot twaddle, all of that.
Matter of opinon.
evidently the theory of the death penalty as a preventive doesn't hold water.
Not in America as far as Americans are concerned because of the length of time it takes to finally execute a criminal. They are more likely to die of old age or disease while waiting for the interminable appeals to be exhausted. A study a number of years ago surveyed criminals about what would have deterred them and their overwhelming reply was "swift and certain" justice. If they thought they would be dead in a few months, they wouldn't have done it. Analogous to their own explanation of why they don't burgle at night: with the high levels of gun ownership in this country, they think there's a pretty good chance they could end up dead in a night time burglary, so they do them during the daylight hours when there's less chance of anyone being home to kill them. (If you doubt it, you can check the nighttime burlary rates for nations like Canada and Great Britain.) One thing is certain, the prospect of life in prison for most who have spent the majority of their lives in prison is not a deterent; it's a promise of societal support they can count on. Together with the possibility of getting lucky with a weak-minded judicial system more concerned with process than guilt, they have a good chance of avoiding punishment.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 4:43 pm

Lilith wrote:"We all know you haven't seen or heard of the crime yet that merits the death penalty." Corlyss

Many of your right wing posts, Corlyss, merit the death penalty in my view!
:wink:
Proving yet again that the only people who arouse liberals to violence of any kind are American conservatives.
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Post by Werner » Sat May 13, 2006 4:54 pm

So you see how dangerous American conservatives are!
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 5:11 pm

Werner wrote:So you see how dangerous American conservatives are!
If you look at the political makeup of the Armed Forces, you'd see that if you depended on American liberals to protect you, you'd be in an Islamofascist gulag now.
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Post by Ralph » Sat May 13, 2006 5:17 pm

It's somewhat unlikely that anyone incarcerated in a supermax facility will be in 23-hour lockdown with one hour for solitary exercise for many more years. Several lawsuits alleging such treatment violates the Eighth (and Fourteenth in states) Amendment are in the courts and Supreme Court review appears inevitable.

There is substantial medical and psychiatric evidence that such long-term incarceration leads to irreversible psychosis and physical debility for a substantial number of inmates serving those sentences.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 5:33 pm

Ralph wrote:Several lawsuits alleging such treatment violates the Eighth (and Fourteenth in states) Amendment are in the courts and Supreme Court review appears inevitable.
Is this another of your puckish jokes? The attorneys bringing such suits would politically naive. 1) No SCOTUS is going to go so far as to say severe punishment in the form of isolation is a violation of the 8th Amendment. SCOTUS has enough political problems with their occasional dalliance with foreign law and their feckless entertainment of the perenniel death penalty debate. Maybe that idiot in the recent child abuse case could say that, but no SCOTUS justice. 2) Such cases will only inflame the public, which has no problem with the death penalty and is not about to watch while the pantywaist therapists whine on behalf of the most violent and remorseless class of people in society.
There is substantial medical and psychiatric evidence that such long-term incarceration leads to irreversible psychosis and physical debility for a substantial number of inmates serving those sentences.
It's called punishment for a reason.
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Post by Ralph » Sat May 13, 2006 6:21 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:Several lawsuits alleging such treatment violates the Eighth (and Fourteenth in states) Amendment are in the courts and Supreme Court review appears inevitable.
Is this another of your puckish jokes? The attorneys bringing such suits would politically naive. 1) No SCOTUS is going to go so far as to say severe punishment in the form of isolation is a violation of the 8th Amendment. SCOTUS has enough political problems with their occasional dalliance with foreign law and their feckless entertainment of the perenniel death penalty debate. Maybe that idiot in the recent child abuse case could say that, but no SCOTUS justice. 2) Such cases will only inflame the public, which has no problem with the death penalty and is not about to watch while the pantywaist therapists whine on behalf of the most violent and remorseless class of people in society.
There is substantial medical and psychiatric evidence that such long-term incarceration leads to irreversible psychosis and physical debility for a substantial number of inmates serving those sentences.
It's called punishment for a reason.
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The litigation is very serious and I wouldn't bet that the Justices would sustain that form of isolation incarcerattion. The medical evidence comes from a number of respected doctors uninvolved in political issues generally and certainly not part of a prisoners' rights movement.
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Post by Ralph » Sat May 13, 2006 6:23 pm

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sat May 13, 2006 6:50 pm

Ralph wrote:The litigation is very serious and I wouldn't bet that the Justices would sustain that form of isolation incarcerattion.
I'll buy you lunch at the restaurant of your choice - hell, I might even come to NYC to do it - if SCOTUS endorses such poppycock. I'm even tempted to bet that they won't even grant cert.
The medical evidence comes from a number of respected doctors uninvolved in political issues generally and certainly not part of a prisoners' rights movement.
In time, Moorman will receive a lethal injection for the early '80s incident that included chopping his mother's body into pieces and disposing of them in dumpsters throughout Florence.
If I am ready to kill 'em, why would I care that they become discomfited by their mere incarceration? I've seen more than a few documentaries on maximum security prisons. They are clean and orderly and the food appears on time. They don't merit any more. These people have forfeited their claims to my sympathies. Lest my point isn't clear enough, I don't care what happens to them.
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Post by Ralph » Sat May 13, 2006 7:45 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:The litigation is very serious and I wouldn't bet that the Justices would sustain that form of isolation incarcerattion.
I'll buy you lunch at the restaurant of your choice - hell, I might even come to NYC to do it - if SCOTUS endorses such poppycock. I'm even tempted to bet that they won't even grant cert.

*****

Probably the Court won't have much of a choice since it's likely that there will be different and opposing rulings in the various circuits and even state supreme courts.

The medical evidence comes from a number of respected doctors uninvolved in political issues generally and certainly not part of a prisoners' rights movement.
In time, Moorman will receive a lethal injection for the early '80s incident that included chopping his mother's body into pieces and disposing of them in dumpsters throughout Florence.
*****

That was SOOOO bad?


If I am ready to kill 'em, why would I care that they become discomfited by their mere incarceration? I've seen more than a few documentaries on maximum security prisons. They are clean and orderly and the food appears on time. They don't merit any more. These people have forfeited their claims to my sympathies. Lest my point isn't clear enough, I don't care what happens to them.

*****

There's a big difference between your stating your own views and being able to analyze possible legal developments.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Sun May 14, 2006 2:32 pm

Ralph wrote:There's a big difference between your stating your own views and being able to analyze possible legal developments.
:roll: This from a guy who's proud of his name being on that ridiculous university effort to strike down the Solomon amendment. Even the stones in the street knew that was a legal loser.

There is no legal development that doesn't have political connotations. I agree that SCOTUS might take the case if some disappointed legal aid society, masquerading as an appellate circuit court, decided to ban maximum security prisons. But that's the ONLY way they would take it and they would reject it by a 9-0 count.
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Post by Ralph » Sun May 14, 2006 7:57 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote:There's a big difference between your stating your own views and being able to analyze possible legal developments.
:roll: This from a guy who's proud of his name being on that ridiculous university effort to strike down the Solomon amendment. Even the stones in the street knew that was a legal loser.

There is no legal development that doesn't have political connotations. I agree that SCOTUS might take the case if some disappointed legal aid society, masquerading as an appellate circuit court, decided to ban maximum security prisons. But that's the ONLY way they would take it and they would reject it by a 9-0 count.
*****

There is a difference between an activist's POLITICAL act in signing an amicus brief on a clearly losing issue (the Solomon Amendment case) and how a jurist views an appeal. I was on record predicting the Court would not only deny the appeal but that First Amendment law supported that position. But...it was important to make a statement by those of us who support equality for gays.

Should the circuits split on incarceration with a 23-hour lockdown there is virtually no way the Supreme Court can deny cert. And you can be sure that counsel for invalidating this form of punishment will be very seasoned High Court advocates.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon May 15, 2006 1:16 am

Ralph wrote: And you can be sure that counsel for invalidating this form of punishment will be very seasoned High Court advocates.
Okay. They might get Ginsberg's vote . . . . No, I'm still going with 9-zip.
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Post by Ralph » Mon May 15, 2006 6:28 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
Ralph wrote: And you can be sure that counsel for invalidating this form of punishment will be very seasoned High Court advocates.
Okay. They might get Ginsberg's vote . . . . No, I'm still going with 9-zip.
*****

Well, we'll both have to wait a long while.
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