Support for Iraq War Crumbling

Corlyss_D
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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:09 am

Lilith wrote:GOP Senator Says Iraq Looking Like Vietnam By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press Writer


WASHINGTON - A leading Republican senator and prospective presidential candidate said Sunday that the war in Iraq has destabilized the Middle East and is looking more like the Vietnam conflict from a generation ago.

Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel (news, bio, voting record), who received two Purple Hearts and other military honors for his service in Vietnam, reiterated his position that the United States needs to develop a strategy to leave Iraq.
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His own party starts turning on him.
Not exactly.

Chuck Hagel= 08 Presidential candidate. Hagel's comments would be news if he hadn't been saying this for 2 years now. Last year Foreign Affairs, the prestigious journal of the Council on Foreign Relations, gave him a platform to lecture Bush under the guise of a "Republican foreign policy." The comments of the heirs don't count except among us that fear they don't get it any more than the Democratic leadership do.
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jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:18 am

pizza wrote:and more importantly exhibit a basic understanding of the meaning of human decency in matters of personal discourse and then we'll talk about the intracacies of liability.
You mean as you do (did) in all the cases where you bored the judge and jury into a state of stupor in order to claim your fee for winning your client an amount that manifestly was not due him or her? High calling, there.

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Post by pizza » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:37 am

jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:and more importantly exhibit a basic understanding of the meaning of human decency in matters of personal discourse and then we'll talk about the intracacies of liability.
You mean as you do (did) in all the cases where you bored the judge and jury into a state of stupor in order to claim your fee for winning your client an amount that manifestly was not due him or her? High calling, there.
Nope. I meant and still mean: until then, stuff it.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:45 am

Michael wrote:Exhausting stuff reading this thread from the beginning.
No kidding! You should try keeping up with it. The posts have tumbled out with lightening speed.
First of all my understanding of sushi is that it is raw fish (or veg) wrapped in rice and seaweed. Sashimi is simply strips of raw fish.
I love the versatility of language, but what's wrong with "fish" "strips of fish" "strips of fish rolled up" and "strips of fish on rice." There's no similarity in the names that would hint it's all fish. Why all the different names for ways of serving . . . . fish?
The polls were not conclusive and showed the 2 main parties very close but I really can't stress too much how unpopular Aznar's decision was.
While I don't doubt it, the appearance of the Spanish electorate before the bombing was one of complete indifference to the results to the election. The picture after the bombing was one of what some of us have come to know as the typically supine and appeasement-driven European public with a disconcerting habit of mourning copiously the dead while doing absolutely nothing to stop the carnage when stopping the carnage would have been easy.
The Spanish find it offensive that some say that they carried out the terrorist's wishes when all along they were planning to boot the PP out anyhow. If one looks at the results the votes for the PP actually held up, few minds were changed after the bombings, but if one looks at the results for the winning party the votes were significantly up.
Sometimes, in politics and history, appearances are reality. We'll have to wait 50 years for appearances to give way to facts teased out of countless records. There was one tiny report of the Spanish troops' return home to the effect that they felt completely humiliated and frustrated by how they were made to appear by their pull out. As we used to say inside the beltway, "The optics on this are terrible." The Spanish didn't "learn" anything from the entire experience, and perhaps if they were planning to dump the PP there wasn't anything to be learned about the bombing from their perspective. But I personally doubt they will understand the dimensions of this struggle even after more British bombings, the projected al Qaeda dirty bomb goes off in Italy and/or the Netherlands, or more bad things happen to make them more timid and submissive. There will always be some who point to this and that cause for the violence, who will resist seeing the "big picture." It surprises me that the big picture seems to be apparent only to the Anglo-Saxons spread around the world. Later I'm going to post some stuff from the introduction to Bat Ye'or's Eurabia just to underscore what the big picture is.
her command of the English language is a delight.
Why, thank you Michael! I tries. :wink: I attribute what proficiency I have to reading British novels in my youth. The assembled ears here at CMG are a very literate and expressive lot and one has to keep up, doncha know.

Just out of curiosity, do you take holidays or work breaks? :wink:
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jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:02 am

pizza wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:and more importantly exhibit a basic understanding of the meaning of human decency in matters of personal discourse and then we'll talk about the intracacies of liability.
You mean as you do (did) in all the cases where you bored the judge and jury into a state of stupor in order to claim your fee for winning your client an amount that manifestly was not due him or her? High calling, there.
Nope. I meant and still mean: until then, stuff it.
You must have been brilliant on rebuttal.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
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Post by pizza » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:11 am

jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:and more importantly exhibit a basic understanding of the meaning of human decency in matters of personal discourse and then we'll talk about the intracacies of liability.
You mean as you do (did) in all the cases where you bored the judge and jury into a state of stupor in order to claim your fee for winning your client an amount that manifestly was not due him or her? High calling, there.
Nope. I meant and still mean: until then, stuff it.
You must have been brilliant on rebuttal.
Glad you finally got the point, teach.

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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:19 am

pizza wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:
pizza wrote:and more importantly exhibit a basic understanding of the meaning of human decency in matters of personal discourse and then we'll talk about the intracacies of liability.
You mean as you do (did) in all the cases where you bored the judge and jury into a state of stupor in order to claim your fee for winning your client an amount that manifestly was not due him or her? High calling, there.
Nope. I meant and still mean: until then, stuff it.
You must have been brilliant on rebuttal.
Glad you finally got the point, teach.
Not so glad that you didn't.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

pizza
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Post by pizza » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:22 pm

The Weekly Standard

Speak of the Dead
From the August 29, 2005 issue: The Cindy Sheehan story is only the latest instance of the left's grief-based politics.
by Noemie Emery
08/29/2005, Volume 010, Issue 46

IN THE FOUR YEARS OR so since September 11, liberals have found a new weapon of preference, and that weapon is martyrdom. They have discovered grief as a tactical weapon. They tend to like grief they can use. They use it to arouse guilt and sympathy to cover a highly partisan message, in the hope that while the message may be controversial, the messenger will be sacrosanct and above reproach. Since 9/11, they have embraced this tactic repeatedly, and each time with a common objective: to cripple the war, to denounce the country, to swing an election, but mainly to embarrass and undermine the president.

The first time was in May 2002, when Democrats accused Republicans of insulting the dead of September 11 by selling a photo of George W. Bush on Air Force One on that day. The second was in October 2002, when Democrats tried to capitalize politically on the shock and sorrow from the deaths of Paul Wellstone, his wife, and his daughter. The third go was with the "Jersey Girls," four young widows whose husbands died in the Towers, whom Gail Sheehy formed into a Bush-bashing regiment, and who ended up campaigning for John Kerry and cutting commercials for him. And the fourth, of course, is poor Cindy Sheehan, the bereaved mother of Army Specialist Casey Sheehan, who was killed in action in Baghdad in April 2004. Sheehan is now surrounded by the usual clique of far-out cause-mongers, who orchestrate her every move for maximum drama. All of these episodes involve attempts to attack without fear of reprisal, by exploiting the sympathy people feel for those who have suffered as well as the natural reluctance to hurt those in pain.

Let us meander down memory lane, way back to May 2002, when the Republican National Committee offered for sale to some of its donors a set of three pictures from the first year of the Bush presidency, including one from September 11 that showed him talking on the phone from Air Force One as he looked out the plane's window. Immediately, a cry went up from prominent Democrats that he had insulted the dead. "Disgraceful," said Al Gore. "Incredibly disrespectful to the families of the thousands of Americans who lost their lives just hours before this photo was taken," said Terry McAuliffe, then chairman of the Democratic National Committee, without telling us why.

This was the start of an ongoing campaign on the part of the Democrats to rule the attacks and Bush's response to them out of bounds, down to attacking as crude and exploitative his decision to hold his 2004 convention in New York. This was a predictable partisan ploy, but by March 2004, the party had found some new allies. When the Bush campaign unveiled its campaign ads, including some shots of the smoldering wreck at Ground Zero, with rescue workers bearing a flag-covered stretcher, the attack was already prepared. The newspaper headlines said everything: "Sept. 11 Victims' Kin Urge Bush to Pull Ads," read one Boston Globe story. "Bush Ads Using 9/11 Images Stir Anger," ran one in the Washington Post. "It upsets me tremendously that . . . my son could be used as a political pawn," said one victim's father. "To say that we're outraged is the truth, but it's more than outrage," said a woman whose brother had died in the North Tower. "It's a deep hurt and sorrow that any politician . . . would seek to gain advantage by using that site." "Our message to all politicians is, 'Keep your hands off Ground Zero,'" the brother of another victim said.

Into the breach charged a vast herd of Democrats, all lashing Bush for his lack of fine feelings: "Speaking to a crowd of 2,000 at a campaign rally in New Orleans," the Boston Globe reported, "Senator John F. Kerry whipped the audience into a frenzy of booing as the presumptive Democratic nominee denounced Bush for using images of the September 11 attacks." It was not until weeks later that it was fully revealed that all of those quoted were not a cross-section of victims' relatives repelled by the president's crassness, but members of a minuscule subset who belonged to a pacifist group called September 11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrows, whose press conference was orchestrated by MoveOn.org. In the end, it turned out that they not only did not represent all or most of the families, they didn't even represent their own families, as some of their parents and siblings were opposed to their acts. Indeed, their impact was neutralized, as they succeeded in rousing a counterreaction among survivors who were hoping to stay out of politics, but were galvanized by them to stand up for the president. By enlisting the dead, they gave Bush's campaign a very rough send-off, which of course had always been the idea.

AN EVEN LESS GOOD IDEA was that embraced by some Democrats in Minnesota when Paul Wellstone was killed in a plane crash at the very end of a close 2002 Senate race against Republican Norm Coleman. Wellstone had died with his wife, his daughter, and five others, and the shock of the loss stunned the state and the nation. Two years before, when Missouri governor Mel Carnahan had similarly been killed in a plane crash in the closing days of his Senate race, party leaders had drafted his widow and successfully framed the race as a memorial to the dead man. Wellstone left no natural successor, but there was a proxy of sorts in former vice president Walter F. Mondale, who had been around so long he seemed he could be Wellstone's father, and who agreed to run in his stead.

The race, Mondale's drafters hoped, could be run as a memorial to Wellstone, in an aura of reverence. Harry Reid and other Senate factotums warned Coleman's campaign that it would be improper to criticize Mondale, or to campaign at all until after Wellstone's memorial service, which would be several days later (and a week before the election). Meanwhile, Democrats felt free to frame Senate races all over the country as tributes to Wellstone, that they wanted to win in his memory. Caught in this box, Coleman slipped to eight points behind Mondale, and was thought to be finished by the day planned for Wellstone's public memorial. Then everything changed.

"Most of the event feels like a rally," thought Slate's Will Saletan as he entered the University of Minnesota arena. "The touching recollections are followed by sharply political speeches urging Wellstone's supporters to channel their grief into electoral victory. The crowd repeatedly stands, stomps, and whoops." Republican senators were booed, while Democrats were cheered, none more so than Mondale. "As the evening's speakers proceed," reported Saletan, "it becomes clear that to them, honoring Wellstone's legacy is all about winning the election. Repeating the words of Wellstone's son, the assembly shouts, 'We will win! We will win!'" Then Wellstone's friend and campaign treasurer took the stage to address by name Wellstone's Republican friends in the House and the Senate and beg them to "honor" the fallen man by helping Mondale win the race: "We can redeem the sacrifice of his life, if you help us win this election," he said.

In translation, this is the unspoken theme of grief-centered politics: We are suffering, so you owe it to us to give us what we ask for. This is the claim of Cindy Sheehan and the Jersey Girls, and it carries with it an implied accusation: If you don't do what we ask you, you don't care that our loved one is dead. But no one had ever heard it stated so baldly or bluntly as at the Wellstone service, and the bluntness repelled. "The late senator was treated as little more than one broken egg in a great get-out-the-vote omelet," wrote Christopher Caldwell in these pages. "The pilots and aides who died with him were barely treated at all." People stalked out. People complained. Floods of cash poured into Norm Coleman's campaign, which found itself suddenly energized. The scandal had not only dissipated the aura of reverence, it gave Coleman permission to run hard against Mondale. He did. Not only did he win, but the riptide seemed to extend to neighboring states, helping pull in Jim Talent, who edged past Jean Carnahan, who had been comparing the Wellstone disaster to her own husband's death. Lesson to liberals: Grief-centered politics has to be subtle. It's a lesson they haven't quite learned.

IT WAS NOT LEARNED by the Jersey Girls, the four widows from the Middletown area, who, like Cindy Sheehan, had lost kin in the war, but in lower Manhattan, not Iraq, and husbands, not sons. They were discovered by Gail Sheehy, a writer and liberal Democrat, who had come to their town to write about healing, and stayed to dabble in activist politics, forming the Moms into a corps of crusaders, bent on finding the flaws in the system, and then on blaming them all upon Bush. The Moms seemed at first to have been apolitical (two of them claimed to have voted Republican), but they soon began sounding exactly like Sheehy, who became their coach, their den mother, sponsor, and publicist, detailing their struggles in the New York Observer under a series of headlines such as "Four 9/11 Moms Battle Bush," "Vigilant Widows Wait for Condi With Suspicion," and "Moms Battle Bush." Wrote Sheehy: "So afraid is the Bush administration of what could be revealed by inquiries into its failures . . . it is unabashedly using Kremlin tactics to muzzle members of Congress . . . but there is at least one force that the administration cannot scare off or shut up."

Trading on the reluctance of people and of politicians to seem to be rude to pretty young widows, she used their status as the bereaved to push the government into staging an investigation of the events leading up to 9/11. Sheehy tossed off stories of the four in their kitchens, coloring Easter eggs and planning their Passover seders, as they discussed their ambitions to nail Condi Rice. "It's The Mmes. Smith go to Washington," she trilled happily. "Instead of Jimmy Stewart shouting himself hoarse in the well of the Senate, these young suburban widows have banded together to coax and cajole, outwit and outlast their national leaders until officials face up to their mistakes." For "face up to mistakes" read "embarrass the president," a goal they did not try to hide.

Sheehy, the Moms, and their legions of fans saw them as heartbroken souls facing a sinister government, but to a growing number of people they came to appear as both sad and obsessive, demanding in retrospect a form of clairvoyance from government, and over their heads in discussing such matters as counterintelligence. "In the public pronouncements of the Jersey Girls we find . . . hardly a jot of accusatory rage at the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks," the Wall Street Journal's Dorothy Rabinowitz noted. "Who . . . would not be struck by the fact that all their fury and accusation is aimed not at the killers . . . but at the American president, his administration, and an ever wider assortment of targets, including the Air Force, the Port Authority, the City of New York?" (One who was struck was Debra Burlingame, sister of a pilot who died at the Pentagon, who emerged as the head of a backlash against them. By the time Condi Rice did testify, the family members had split into two different factions: the Moms, who staged a conspicuous walkout, and the Burlingame forces, who applauded her lustily.) In the end, the Moms and the commission went out with a whimper, the Moms enraged when it failed to damn Bush. By now, they were linked to the website of Peaceful Tomorrows, but it no longer mattered, nor did their endorsement of Kerry, who lost. This was the end of their spell in the limelight. When they failed to deliver what Sheehy expected--the ouster of Bush, or at least his embarrassment--she quickly lost interest, and the four moms are now back in New Jersey, bereft not only of their husbands, but also of the publicity, adulation, and public attention on which they seemed to have come to depend.

AFTER THE JERSEY GIRLS, there was nowhere to go but to "Mother Sheehan,"* who, like the Wellstone Memorial, may be about to implode. In her case, her cover as Everymom is more easily broken, as her connection to the Loony Left is far more explicit, and her tongue is a lot less controlled. You might not know it from her televised interviews (where she seems well coached by the expensive media mavens retained by MoveOn.org), but the Internet is alive with her unscripted sayings, and they make quite a collection. To anyone's knowledge, none of the Jersey Girls or members of Peaceful Tomorrows has appeared on a program with Lynne Stewart, the convicted lawyer and friend to Islamic terrorists, and proclaimed her a personal heroine. None has ever said anything like this to a public gathering: "We have no constitution. We're the only country with no checks and balances. We want our country back if we have to impeach George Bush down to the person who picks up the dog s--in Washington. Let George Bush send his two little party animals to die in Iraq."

Few Everymoms have ever told newsmen: "America has been killing people on this continent since it was started. This country is not worth dying for." Few Everymoms have been endorsed and commended by David Duke, the Hitler admirer, because he agrees with their statements that their sons were killed to help the Jews. The Crawford Peace House--the Crawford, Texas, group that sustained her protests against the vacationing president through the first half of August--is dedicated less to opposition to the war in Iraq than to the belief that Israel is the source of all evil, so she has now added that to her list.

It took a few weeks for Peaceful Tomorrows to reveal itself as a partisan outfit, and months for the same thing to occur with the Jersey Girls, but with the Sheehan phenomenon, it has only been a matter of days. And the reaction has set in already: Other family members, also bereaved, have denounced her performance, and other military families have come forward to declare she does not speak for them. Among them has been Linda Ryan, whose son, Marine Corporal Marc T. Ryan, was killed in Iraq in November. "George Bush didn't kill [Cindy Sheehan's] son," she told her local New Jersey newspaper, the Gloucester County Times. "George Bush was my son's commander in chief. My son, Marc, totally believed in what he was doing." "She's going about this not realizing how many people she's hurting. When she refers to anyone killed in Iraq, she's referring to my son. She doesn't have anything to say about what happened to my son."

SINCE THE FLORIDA RECOUNT, the left has been driven mad by their loathing for George W. Bush, which subsequent elections in 2002 and 2004 only intensified. And since 9/11, they have also been turned into grief-seeking missiles, and slipped into a confusion and squalor that boggle the mind.

"The moral authority of parents who bury children killed in Iraq is absolute," declares the New York Times's Maureen Dowd. What she means is the moral authority of those she finds useful. Does she accept the moral authority of Linda Ryan, who finds Sheehan disgraceful? Does she bow to the moral authority of the thousands of parents of the dead and the wounded who support the war and the president, and find her snideness disgusting? Can she begin to guess at what the phrase even means?

There are so many people who have buried children, and so many more who have had children wounded, and so many more who have children in danger, that their political views cannot be uniform. What happens when the opinions behind which they put all of their moral authority collide? When parents and other family members of the dead and wounded disagree about politics, who gets custody of the moral authority? Is the moral authority of Cindy Sheehan compromised by the dissent of her husband, who is also a parent in agony?

It is impossible to avoid the conclusion that for Dowd and her ilk, moral authority stems less from service or suffering than from the potential to cause serious trouble for Bush. Thus combat service gave great moral authority to John Kerry, running against Bush for president, but did nothing at all for the 100-plus Swift Boat Veterans who opposed Kerry, most of whom had more medals than Kerry, had more wounds than Kerry, and also served much longer terms. (Dowd and other liberals denounced these combat veterans as assassins and liars, denying the curative powers of service and sacrifice. But then, c'est la guerre.) To them, the grief of Cindy Sheehan is more valid than the grief of her husband and other numerous relatives, and much more valid than the grief of Linda Ryan, which they fail to acknowledge as meaningful. The grief of a Kristen Breitweiser is more meaningful than that of a Debra Burlingame, and much more meaningful than that of Ted Olson, whose wife died on the plane that went into the Pentagon, but who is also a conservative stalwart, whose wife was also a conservative stalwart, and who argued and won the case of Bush v. Gore. What's his moral authority? Do we need to ask?

Do we need to ask also what they have been doing to politics, with these poisoned injections of grief? The health of the political process rests upon vigorous argument, in which the back and forth is intense and protracted, so that the holes in all arguments--and there are holes in all arguments--are thoroughly aired and exposed. But no one wants a vigorous argument with a 30-year-old widow who has seen her husband burned to death in the wreckage of the World Trade Center towers, or with a parent who has just lost a son. No one wants to have an argument, period, or even be heard to be raising one's voice.

Political cut and thrust does not go well with the etiquette of bereavement, which tends to short-circuit all argument, which of course is the point. It inhibits argument, makes response awkward, and sometimes can stop it completely, putting an opponent in the position of Norm Coleman before the Wellstone Memorial fracas, in which Democrats were free to seek votes based on sentiment, while anything Coleman tried to say about Wellstone's replacement was called an insult to the dead. People who put mourners up front on policy issues are like robbers leaving a bank with a hostage between themselves and police fire. To do this on purpose, to drive an agenda, is beneath all contempt.

Here is a message for our friends in the grief-based community: Really, you must cut this out. We are tired of having our emotions worked on and worked over; tired of the matched sets of dueling relatives, tired of all of these claims on our sympathy, that at the same time defy common sense. The heart breaks for everyone who lost relatives and friends on September 11, as it does for the relatives of the war dead and wounded, as it does for the sons of Paul Wellstone. It does not break for MoveOn.org, Maureen Dowd, and Gail Sheehy, who have not been heartbroken, except by a string of election reverses, and are using the anguish of other people in an effort to turn them around. Especially, it does not break for George Soros, who, after squandering millions on the Kerry campaign, is now using poor Cindy Sheehan to get back in the action, and it does not break for political operative Joe Trippi, late of the Howard Dean meltdown, who is trying to do the same thing. She is now the vehicle for a collection of losers, who will use her, and then toss her over and out once she has served their purposes, or more likely failed to do so. Her family has broken up under the effects of this circus; she has now lost her husband, as well as her son. Please, send her back to her therapist, and what is now left of her broken-up family. And please--do not try this again.

Noemie Emery is a contributing editor to The Weekly Standard.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 9abvgj.asp

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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:36 pm

Tomorrow I must return to work, and I shall for the time being lose the pleasure of assassinating Pizza. And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity. Don't think for a minute that I have not wished his next post to represent something in excess of purely SAT-level verbal intelligence. It just has never happened.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by pizza » Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:55 pm

jbuck919 wrote:Tomorrow I must return to work, and I shall for the time being lose the pleasure of assassinating Pizza. And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity. Don't think for a minute that I have not wished his next post to represent something in excess of purely SAT-level verbal intelligence. It just has never happened.
Better inanity than insanity. Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll did well by it. Bye bye, John boy. Extend my deepest sympathies to your pupils.

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Post by jbuck919 » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:17 pm

pizza wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Tomorrow I must return to work, and I shall for the time being lose the pleasure of assassinating Pizza. And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity. Don't think for a minute that I have not wished his next post to represent something in excess of purely SAT-level verbal intelligence. It just has never happened.
Better inanity than insanity. Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll did well by it. Bye bye, John boy. Extend my deepest sympathies to your pupils.
Edward Lear and Lewis Carroll were conscious of when they were writing nonsense.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Aug 22, 2005 1:22 pm

jbuck919 wrote:And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity.
Well, not all of us feel that was a great loss, at least from her posts here in the Pub. Until I shamed her into posting on the music side, where she is a steady, thoughtful, provocative, and valued contributor on GMG, she hovered here, annoying, outspoken, ignorant, and indifferent to her ignorance. I would have loved for her to be on the music side, but apparently she didn't want to hang there. She wanted to hang here with us hardballers.
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Post by herman » Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:22 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity.
Well, not all of us feel that was a great loss, at least from her posts here in the Pub. Until I shamed her into posting on the music side, where she is a steady, thoughtful, provocative, and valued contributor on GMG, she hovered here, annoying, outspoken, ignorant, and indifferent to her ignorance. I would have loved for her to be on the music side, but apparently she didn't want to hang there. She wanted to hang here with us hardballers.
You seem to identify rather heavily with her. :lol:

Again, I'd say it's OK if a member exults in another member leaving (though it isn't very nice). However for a moderator / owner to make it hard for members because of opinion differences is really strange - unless you regard this part of CMG as your own personal political pinball alley.

In that case it would be fair to change the guidelines accordingly. You clearly don't abide by them yourself anyway, as they are now. Why don't you just state openly that only members who agree with or bow to your political notions are welcome? Otherwise they'll be "disciplined" by the Immoderate Moderator. That's perfectly straightforward, even if it's a little odd.

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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:14 am

herman wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:And I apologize to those others I may have put off, but we lost Owlice and maybe others because of his inanity.
Well, not all of us feel that was a great loss, at least from her posts here in the Pub. Until I shamed her into posting on the music side, where she is a steady, thoughtful, provocative, and valued contributor on GMG, she hovered here, annoying, outspoken, ignorant, and indifferent to her ignorance. I would have loved for her to be on the music side, but apparently she didn't want to hang there. She wanted to hang here with us hardballers.
You seem to identify rather heavily with her. :lol:

Again, I'd say it's OK if a member exults in another member leaving (though it isn't very nice). However for a moderator / owner to make it hard for members because of opinion differences is really strange - unless you regard this part of CMG as your own personal political pinball alley.

In that case it would be fair to change the guidelines accordingly. You clearly don't abide by them yourself anyway, as they are now. Why don't you just state openly that only members who agree with or bow to your political notions are welcome? Otherwise they'll be "disciplined" by the Immoderate Moderator. That's perfectly straightforward, even if it's a little odd.
Nobody differs more than me from Corlyss when it comes to politics. It is pretty evident that she started the Pub (it didn't used to be part of this board and rather shocked some members when it was set up) to express her own opinions. But that does not mean that she is necessarily off-putting. One has to give as good as one gets.

Compared to dealing with the situation we have with George Bush as president, the death penalty still commonly felt to be proper to a civilized nation, no national health care system, and every Tom Dick and Harry likely to shoot you to death, dealing with Corlyss seems rather mild.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

herman
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Post by herman » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:19 am

jbuck919 wrote:Compared to dealing with the situation we have with George Bush as president, the death penalty still commonly felt to be proper to a civilized nation, no national health care system, and every Tom Dick and Harry likely to shoot you to death, dealing with Corlyss seems rather mild.
Not everybody on CMG is a US citizen, Buck, so your "we" does not apply.

jbuck919
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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:26 am

herman wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:Compared to dealing with the situation we have with George Bush as president, the death penalty still commonly felt to be proper to a civilized nation, no national health care system, and every Tom Dick and Harry likely to shoot you to death, dealing with Corlyss seems rather mild.
Not everybody on CMG is a US citizen, Buck, so your "we" does not apply.
My "we" applies because we are still a US-based board. Even the "other board," where the moderator is Australian, has a largely US constituencty. Start your own board if that is a problem.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Corlyss_D
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:37 pm

herman wrote:Again, I'd say it's OK if a member exults in another member leaving (though it isn't very nice). However for a moderator / owner to make it hard for members because of opinion differences is really strange
Damn! Herman, get a life. If you think I make it hard for members who don't agree with me, you haven't been hanging here enough to know what you are talking about, which won't be a first by a long stretch. There are far more people here who don't agree with me politically than who agree with me. If my goal was to run them off, I'm not very good at it, now am I? If you are going to continue to make me the issue, and not your own ignorant and poorly defended positions, I guess that's your choice. But what a strange way to have fun!
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

Barry
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Post by Barry » Mon Aug 29, 2005 7:34 pm

The Weekly Standard
A War to Be Proud Of
From the September 5 / September 12, 2005 issue: The case for overthrowing Saddam was unimpeachable. Why, then, is the administration tongue-tied?
by Christopher Hitchens
09/05/2005

LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day. How is it possible that the advocates of a post-Saddam Iraq have been placed on the defensive in this manner? And where should one begin?

I once tried to calculate how long the post-Cold War liberal Utopia had actually lasted. Whether you chose to date its inception from the fall of the Berlin Wall in November 1989, or the death of Nicolae Ceausescu in late December of the same year, or the release of Nelson Mandela from prison, or the referendum defeat suffered by Augusto Pinochet (or indeed from the publication of Francis Fukuyama's book about the "end of history" and the unarguable triumph of market liberal pluralism), it was an epoch that in retrospect was over before it began. By the middle of 1990, Saddam Hussein had abolished Kuwait and Slobodan Milosevic was attempting to erase

the identity and the existence of Bosnia. It turned out that we had not by any means escaped the reach of atavistic, aggressive, expansionist, and totalitarian ideology. Proving the same point in another way, and within approximately the same period, the theocratic dictator of Iran had publicly claimed the right to offer money in his own name for the suborning of the murder of a novelist living in London, and the génocidaire faction in Rwanda had decided that it could probably get away with putting its long-fantasized plan of mass murder into operation.

One is not mentioning these apparently discrepant crimes and nightmares as a random or unsorted list. Khomeini, for example, was attempting to compensate for the humiliation of the peace agreement he had been compelled to sign with Saddam Hussein. And Saddam Hussein needed to make up the loss, of prestige and income, that he had himself suffered in the very same war. Milosevic (anticipating Putin, as it now seems to me, and perhaps Beijing also) was riding a mutation of socialist nationalism into national socialism. It was to be noticed in all cases that the aggressors, whether they were killing Muslims, or exalting Islam, or just killing their neighbors, shared a deep and abiding hatred of the United States.

The balance sheet of the Iraq war, if it is to be seriously drawn up, must also involve a confrontation with at least this much of recent history. Was the Bush administration right to leave--actually to confirm--Saddam Hussein in power after his eviction from Kuwait in 1991? Was James Baker correct to say, in his delightfully folksy manner, that the United States did not "have a dog in the fight" that involved ethnic cleansing for the mad dream of a Greater Serbia? Was the Clinton administration prudent in its retreat from Somalia, or wise in its opposition to the U.N. resolution that called for a preemptive strengthening of the U.N. forces in Rwanda?

I know hardly anybody who comes out of this examination with complete credit. There were neoconservatives who jeered at Rushdie in 1989 and who couldn't see the point when Sarajevo faced obliteration in 1992. There were leftist humanitarians and radicals who rallied to Rushdie and called for solidarity with Bosnia, but who--perhaps because of a bad conscience about Palestine--couldn't face a confrontation with Saddam Hussein even when he annexed a neighbor state that was a full member of the Arab League and of the U.N. (I suppose I have to admit that I was for a time a member of that second group.) But there were consistencies, too. French statecraft, for example, was uniformly hostile to any resistance to any aggression, and Paris even sent troops to rescue its filthy clientele in Rwanda. And some on the hard left and the brute right were also opposed to any exercise, for any reason, of American military force.

The only speech by any statesman that can bear reprinting from that low, dishonest decade came from Tony Blair when he spoke in Chicago in 1999. Welcoming the defeat and overthrow of Milosevic after the Kosovo intervention, he warned against any self-satisfaction and drew attention to an inescapable confrontation that was coming with Saddam Hussein. So far from being an American "poodle," as his taunting and ignorant foes like to sneer, Blair had in fact leaned on Clinton over Kosovo and was insisting on the importance of Iraq while George Bush was still an isolationist governor of Texas.

Notwithstanding this prescience and principle on his part, one still cannot read the journals of the 2000/2001 millennium without the feeling that one is revisiting a hopelessly somnambulist relative in a neglected home. I am one of those who believe, uncynically, that Osama bin Laden did us all a service (and holy war a great disservice) by his mad decision to assault the American homeland four years ago. Had he not made this world-historical mistake, we would have been able to add a Talibanized and nuclear-armed Pakistan to our list of the threats we failed to recognize in time. (This threat still exists, but it is no longer so casually overlooked.)

The subsequent liberation of Pakistan's theocratic colony in Afghanistan, and the so-far decisive eviction and defeat of its bin Ladenist guests, was only a reprisal. It took care of the last attack. But what about the next one? For anyone with eyes to see, there was only one other state that combined the latent and the blatant definitions of both "rogue" and "failed." This state--Saddam's ruined and tortured and collapsing Iraq--had also met all the conditions under which a country may be deemed to have sacrificed its own legal sovereignty. To recapitulate: It had invaded its neighbors, committed genocide on its own soil, harbored and nurtured international thugs and killers, and flouted every provision of the Non-Proliferation Treaty. The United Nations, in this crisis, faced with regular insult to its own resolutions and its own character, had managed to set up a system of sanctions-based mutual corruption. In May 2003, had things gone on as they had been going, Saddam Hussein would have been due to fill Iraq's slot as chair of the U.N. Conference on Disarmament. Meanwhile, every species of gangster from the hero of the Achille Lauro hijacking to Abu Musab al Zarqawi was finding hospitality under Saddam's crumbling roof.

One might have thought, therefore, that Bush and Blair's decision to put an end at last to this intolerable state of affairs would be hailed, not just as a belated vindication of long-ignored U.N. resolutions but as some corrective to the decade of shame and inaction that had just passed in Bosnia and Rwanda. But such is not the case. An apparent consensus exists, among millions of people in Europe and America, that the whole operation for the demilitarization of Iraq, and the salvage of its traumatized society, was at best a false pretense and at worst an unprovoked aggression. How can this possibly be?

THERE IS, first, the problem of humorless and pseudo-legalistic literalism. In Saki's short story The Lumber Room, the naughty but clever child Nicholas, who has actually placed a frog in his morning bread-and-milk, rejoices in his triumph over the adults who don't credit this excuse for not eating his healthful dish:


"You said there couldn't possibly be a frog in my bread-and-milk; there was a frog in my bread-and-milk," he repeated, with the insistence of a skilled tactician who does not intend to shift from favorable ground.
Childishness is one thing--those of us who grew up on this wonderful Edwardian author were always happy to see the grown-ups and governesses discomfited. But puerility in adults is quite another thing, and considerably less charming. "You said there were WMDs in Iraq and that Saddam had friends in al Qaeda. . . . Blah, blah, pants on fire." I have had many opportunities to tire of this mantra. It takes ten seconds to intone the said mantra. It would take me, on my most eloquent C-SPAN day, at the very least five minutes to say that Abdul Rahman Yasin, who mixed the chemicals for the World Trade Center attack in 1993, subsequently sought and found refuge in Baghdad; that Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, Saddam's senior physicist, was able to lead American soldiers to nuclear centrifuge parts and a blueprint for a complete centrifuge (the crown jewel of nuclear physics) buried on the orders of Qusay Hussein; that Saddam's agents were in Damascus as late as February 2003, negotiating to purchase missiles off the shelf from North Korea; or that Rolf Ekeus, the great Swedish socialist who founded the inspection process in Iraq after 1991, has told me for the record that he was offered a $2 million bribe in a face-to-face meeting with Tariq Aziz. And these eye-catching examples would by no means exhaust my repertoire, or empty my quiver. Yes, it must be admitted that Bush and Blair made a hash of a good case, largely because they preferred to scare people rather than enlighten them or reason with them. Still, the only real strategy of deception has come from those who believe, or pretend, that Saddam Hussein was no problem.

I have a ready answer to those who accuse me of being an agent and tool of the Bush-Cheney administration (which is the nicest thing that my enemies can find to say). Attempting a little levity, I respond that I could stay at home if the authorities could bother to make their own case, but that I meanwhile am a prisoner of what I actually do know about the permanent hell, and the permanent threat, of the Saddam regime. However, having debated almost all of the spokespeople for the antiwar faction, both the sane and the deranged, I was recently asked a question that I was temporarily unable to answer. "If what you claim is true," the honest citizen at this meeting politely asked me, "how come the White House hasn't told us?"

I do in fact know the answer to this question. So deep and bitter is the split within official Washington, most especially between the Defense Department and the CIA, that any claim made by the former has been undermined by leaks from the latter. (The latter being those who maintained, with a combination of dogmatism and cowardice not seen since Lincoln had to fire General McClellan, that Saddam Hussein was both a "secular" actor and--this is the really rich bit--a rational and calculating one.)

There's no cure for that illusion, but the resulting bureaucratic chaos and unease has cornered the president into his current fallback upon platitude and hollowness. It has also induced him to give hostages to fortune. The claim that if we fight fundamentalism "over there" we won't have to confront it "over here" is not just a standing invitation for disproof by the next suicide-maniac in London or Chicago, but a coded appeal to provincial and isolationist opinion in the United States. Surely the elementary lesson of the grim anniversary that will shortly be upon us is that American civilians are as near to the front line as American soldiers.

It is exactly this point that makes nonsense of the sob-sister tripe pumped out by the Cindy Sheehan circus and its surrogates. But in reply, why bother to call a struggle "global" if you then try to localize it? Just say plainly that we shall fight them everywhere they show themselves, and fight them on principle as well as in practice, and get ready to warn people that Nigeria is very probably the next target of the jihadists. The peaceniks love to ask: When and where will it all end? The answer is easy: It will end with the surrender or defeat of one of the contending parties. Should I add that I am certain which party that ought to be? Defeat is just about imaginable, though the mathematics and the algebra tell heavily against the holy warriors. Surrender to such a foe, after only four years of combat, is not even worthy of consideration.

Antaeus was able to draw strength from the earth every time an antagonist wrestled him to the ground. A reverse mythology has been permitted to take hold in the present case, where bad news is deemed to be bad news only for regime-change. Anyone with the smallest knowledge of Iraq knows that its society and infrastructure and institutions have been appallingly maimed and beggared by three decades of war and fascism (and the "divide-and-rule" tactics by which Saddam maintained his own tribal minority of the Sunni minority in power). In logic and morality, one must therefore compare the current state of the country with the likely or probable state of it had Saddam and his sons been allowed to go on ruling.

At once, one sees that all the alternatives would have been infinitely worse, and would most likely have led to an implosion--as well as opportunistic invasions from Iran and Turkey and Saudi Arabia, on behalf of their respective interests or confessional clienteles. This would in turn have necessitated a more costly and bloody intervention by some kind of coalition, much too late and on even worse terms and conditions. This is the lesson of Bosnia and Rwanda yesterday, and of Darfur today. When I have made this point in public, I have never had anyone offer an answer to it. A broken Iraq was in our future no matter what, and was a responsibility (somewhat conditioned by our past blunders) that no decent person could shirk. The only unthinkable policy was one of abstention.

Two pieces of good fortune still attend those of us who go out on the road for this urgent and worthy cause. The first is contingent: There are an astounding number of plain frauds and charlatans (to phrase it at its highest) in charge of the propaganda of the other side. Just to tell off the names is to frighten children more than Saki ever could: Michael Moore, George Galloway, Jacques Chirac, Tim Robbins, Richard Clarke, Joseph Wilson . . . a roster of gargoyles that would send Ripley himself into early retirement. Some of these characters are flippant, and make heavy jokes about Halliburton, and some disdain to conceal their sympathy for the opposite side. So that's easy enough.

The second bit of luck is a certain fiber displayed by a huge number of anonymous Americans. Faced with a constant drizzle of bad news and purposely demoralizing commentary, millions of people stick out their jaws and hang tight. I am no fan of populism, but I surmise that these citizens are clear on the main point: It is out of the question--plainly and absolutely out of the question--that we should surrender the keystone state of the Middle East to a rotten, murderous alliance between Baathists and bin Ladenists. When they hear the fatuous insinuation that this alliance has only been created by the resistance to it, voters know in their intestines that those who say so are soft on crime and soft on fascism. The more temperate anti-warriors, such as Mark Danner and Harold Meyerson, like to employ the term "a war of choice." One should have no problem in accepting this concept. As they cannot and do not deny, there was going to be another round with Saddam Hussein no matter what. To whom, then, should the "choice" of time and place have fallen? The clear implication of the antichoice faction--if I may so dub them--is that this decision should have been left up to Saddam Hussein. As so often before . . .

DOES THE PRESIDENT deserve the benefit of the reserve of fortitude that I just mentioned? Only just, if at all. We need not argue about the failures and the mistakes and even the crimes, because these in some ways argue themselves. But a positive accounting could be offered without braggartry, and would include:

(1) The overthrow of Talibanism and Baathism, and the exposure of many highly suggestive links between the two elements of this Hitler-Stalin pact. Abu Musab al Zarqawi, who moved from Afghanistan to Iraq before the coalition intervention, has even gone to the trouble of naming his organization al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

(2) The subsequent capitulation of Qaddafi's Libya in point of weapons of mass destruction--a capitulation that was offered not to Kofi Annan or the E.U. but to Blair and Bush.

(3) The consequent unmasking of the A.Q. Khan network for the illicit transfer of nuclear technology to Libya, Iran, and North Korea.

(4) The agreement by the United Nations that its own reform is necessary and overdue, and the unmasking of a quasi-criminal network within its elite.

(5) The craven admission by President Chirac and Chancellor Schröder, when confronted with irrefutable evidence of cheating and concealment, respecting solemn treaties, on the part of Iran, that not even this will alter their commitment to neutralism. (One had already suspected as much in the Iraqi case.)

(6) The ability to certify Iraq as actually disarmed, rather than accept the word of a psychopathic autocrat.

(7) The immense gains made by the largest stateless minority in the region--the Kurds--and the spread of this example to other states.

(8 ) The related encouragement of democratic and civil society movements in Egypt, Syria, and most notably Lebanon, which has regained a version of its autonomy.

(9) The violent and ignominious death of thousands of bin Ladenist infiltrators into Iraq and Afghanistan, and the real prospect of greatly enlarging this number.

(10) The training and hardening of many thousands of American servicemen and women in a battle against the forces of nihilism and absolutism, which training and hardening will surely be of great use in future combat.

It would be admirable if the president could manage to make such a presentation. It would also be welcome if he and his deputies adopted a clear attitude toward the war within the war: in other words, stated plainly, that the secular and pluralist forces within Afghan and Iraqi society, while they are not our clients, can in no circumstance be allowed to wonder which outcome we favor.

The great point about Blair's 1999 speech was that it asserted the obvious. Coexistence with aggressive regimes or expansionist, theocratic, and totalitarian ideologies is not in fact possible. One should welcome this conclusion for the additional reason that such coexistence is not desirable, either. If the great effort to remake Iraq as a demilitarized federal and secular democracy should fail or be defeated, I shall lose sleep for the rest of my life in reproaching myself for doing too little. But at least I shall have the comfort of not having offered, so far as I can recall, any word or deed that contributed to a defeat.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Lilith
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Post by Lilith » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:01 pm

Please spare us another worthless Christopher Hitchens article.

Barry
Posts: 10342
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:22 pm

Best summation (both morally and strategically) of why the war should have been and should continue to be fought I've read yet. Too bad the administration didn't consult him before attempting to sell the war.

I have to admit I admire Hitchens for addressing the moral side of this. His first line on how much better the inmates in Abu Garab had it after the U.S. invasion than before it is right on the mark. The left never makes a peep about innocents being killed until it happens at the hand of the U.S. (or Israel). As long as the most brutal dictators are torturing and slaughtering thousands within their own borders, the left is happy to remain quiet. The European left didn't want to fight Hitler and would have been happy to let him do whatever he wanted to the Jews within Germany if he didn't bother any other nations. And they haven't changed a bit since then.

Sickening really.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

BWV 1080
Posts: 4449
Joined: Sun Apr 24, 2005 10:05 pm

Post by BWV 1080 » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:29 pm

Hitchens has given the most eloquent analysis of this conflict. The analogies he and others have made in equating the fight against global terrorist groups to how nations dealt with piracy a couple of hundred years ago is quite illuminating.

Barry
Posts: 10342
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 3:50 pm

Post by Barry » Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:34 pm

BWV 1080 wrote:Hitchens has given the most eloquent analysis of this conflict.
I think I feel a bit of kinship with him because I began to feel disillusioned with those on the left who I had identified myself with and agreed with on most issues for so long, at least with respect to foreign policy generally and the war specifically, at about the same time he apparently did (although it may have been a more gradual progression for me than I think it was for him).
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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