General Pace

[Barry]

I'm watching General Peter Pace, the new Joint Chiefs Chairman, on C-Span 3. This guy is wonderful. He should be giving speaches to the nation on national tv. He may not have an ideal speaking voice, but he is clear, direct, easy to understand, and simultaneously gives off duel airs of tough-guy soldier and an almost FDR-style friendliness and affability.

He acknowledges that the message on how the war is going and how important it is to win hasn't been getting out sufficiently. But he also said anyone who thinks we can pull back from the middle east generally or Iraq specifically needs to get out and read what the Islamofacists themselves are saying on their various websites. Their stated goals are to first drive foreigners out of the region, then overthrown any middle east governments that are not supportive of their goals and philosophy (and that means virtually all of the region's governments), then to use that region as a base from which to export their brand of radical Islam as violently as need be to as many parts of the world as they can reach. Their map of the world 100 years from now shows them in control of the planet.
Genral Pace reminded his audience at the National Military University that Hitler gave similar warnings in Mein Kempf (according to a History Channel documentary I saw, he also wrote a sequel to Mein Kempf in which he went even further in spelling out his expansionist goals) and was ignored.

I hope to see Genral Pace in as out-front of a role as possible in the comings months and years.

[Barry]

During the Q&A, one of the questioners just asked General Pace to address some of what's going right in Iraq to counter the overwhelming negativity in the press. He pointed out that 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces are relatively stable and going on with the business of life. The other four, one of which obviously includes Baghdad, still have insurgencies with some strength, at least enough to carry out terrorist acts.

[karlhenning]

He acknowledges that the message on how the war is going and how important it is to win hasn't been getting out sufficiently. But he also said anyone who thinks we can pull back from the middle east generally or Iraq specifically needs to get out and read what the Islamofacists themselves are saying on their various websites. Their stated goals are to first drive foreigners out of the region, then overthrown any middle east governments that are not supportive of their goals and philosophy (and that means virtually all of the region's governments), then to use that region as a base from which to export their brand of radical Islam as violently as need be to as many parts of the world as they can reach. Their map of the world 100 years from now shows them in control of the planet.

In other words, no change from before the Invasion of Iraq, right?

Barry, do we two agree that (a) whatever good might be (or might have been) accomplished by the US Army in Iraq, that its very presence there is (in some measure) part of the problem; (b) whatever balance the US Army there may achieve at various points in the timeline, between being [part of the solution] and [part of the problem ], that the [ part of the problem ] portion of this balance expands the longer there is a US military presence there; and (c) the administration never had an intelligent plan for, even as it refused to learn to anticipate, the current situation?

"We just can't leave now," is not a plan, is it? Or am I missing something.

Respectfully your'n,
~Karl

[jbuck919]

I think we are stuck with the double entendre of "General Pace." In this situation, it's like someone being named Major Problem or Colonel Oftruth.

[jbuck919]

Not to mention Corporal Punishment and Private Vendetta.

[herman]

During the Q&A, one of the questioners just asked General Pace to address some of what's going right in Iraq to counter the overwhelming negativity in the press. He pointed out that 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces are relatively stable and going on with the business of life. The other four, one of which obviously includes Baghdad, still have insurgencies with some strength, at least enough to carry out terrorist acts.

Great you've got a new hero, Barry, but what if "relatively stable" means nothing? This is the same kind of Fawlty Towers stuff that the administration has been putting out since day one. If things were so "relatively" good it's rather strange they are still this overwhelmingly bad, wouldn't you agree? And I am talking about the number of people killed on a weekly basis.

BTW it's "Mein Kampf" rather than "Mein Kempf", and it's "speech" rather than "speach" - which makes the act of speaking look like throwing up spinach AFAIC.

[jbuck919]

Herman, would you do us a favor? Would you suggest a reasonable disengagement strategy? A compromise would be fine, it doesn't have to be perfect.

No one has been able to do this, and as far as I can determine no one can, anymore than anyone could suggest a better strategy in Vietnam than phony negotiations dragging on for years while thousands more died and the end was the same as it would have been with sudden withdrawal anyway.

[Barry]

During the Q&A, one of the questioners just asked General Pace to address some of what's going right in Iraq to counter the overwhelming negativity in the press. He pointed out that 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces are relatively stable and going on with the business of life. The other four, one of which obviously includes Baghdad, still have insurgencies with some strength, at least enough to carry out terrorist acts.

Great you've got a new hero, Barry, but what if "relatively stable" means nothing? This is the same kind of Fawlty Towers stuff that the administration has been putting out since day one. If things were so "relatively" good it's rather strange they are still this overwhelmingly bad, wouldn't you agree? And I am talking about the number of people killed on a weekly basis.
The number of people that get killed each week is very small in 14 of 18 provinces and even in the other four, in historical terms (judged against other wars), it's not huge. If you're going to use the number of people killed as the criteria for success or failure, then you'll be against virtually ANY war. It's a pacifistic way of judging a war's success (i.e., a European or Appearser's way).
I realize that nothing the administration will say other than "we were wrong and we're going to reverse course and start planning to pull out" will satisfy you, Herman. But as long as we have leadership that is not swayed by the likes of you, I'm confident we won't do the wrong thing.

BTW it's "Mein Kampf" rather than "Mein Kempf", and it's "speech" rather than "speach" - which makes the act of speaking look like throwing up spinach AFAIC.

I've stated how poor my spelling is on here a couple times in the past. If you want to make fun of it, go ahead. I suppose when you've got nothing but defeatism or really anything of substance to offer, that's what one resorts to.

[Werner]

Well, Barry and Herman, are you poaching on my spoecialty, which is typos?

As long as I'm so erratic in this repect, I can't possivbly criticize "speach" or "Mein Kempf," and that's hardly the subject here, is it?

But remember, in contemplating the Islamofscists' view of the planet a hudred years from now, that Hitler's Thousand-Year Reich lasted just twelve years.

I was in Berchtesgaden in 1945 and have a photo in my memoirs that shows his grandiloquent "Adlerhorst" residence in ruins - a fit metaphor for the end of his megalomania.

We had better "generals" (spell civilian leadership - no reflection on General Pace) then than now. But Lincoln had poor generals until he made a change and won.

We can hope the same thing can happen again in due time. In the meanwhile we seem to have no hope but to muddle through the best way we can.

[Ralph]

Not to mention Corporal Punishment and Private Vendetta.

*****

And Major Disgrace.

[herman]

Herman, would you do us a favor? Would you suggest a reasonable disengagement strategy? A compromise would be fine, it doesn't have to be perfect.

I don't have to, and nobody else on this forum has to. I wouldn't take anybody seriously who felt he could write strategy for 150.00 troops on a music forum, thank you. That's what makes Pizza so funny at times.

I've stated how poor my spelling is on here a couple times in the past. If you want to make fun of it, go ahead. I suppose when you've got nothing but defeatism or really anything of substance to offer, that's what one resorts to.

I'm sorry but I'm of the school of thinking that believes that the ability to read and write well is not a technical matter, but an expression of one's ability to think clearly. People who write muddily tend to do so because that's the way they think. In your case, when writing is your trade it's even more telling. You don't respect your trade - you think journalists shouldn't tell the truth, but just print WH handouts; and you don't care what the language looks like. It's a choice. Not mine.

[jbuck919]

Herman, would you do us a favor? Would you suggest a reasonable disengagement strategy? A compromise would be fine, it doesn't have to be perfect.

I don't have to, and nobody else on this forum has to. I wouldn't take anybody seriously who felt he could write strategy for 150.00 troops on a music forum, thank you.

In case you missed my point, no one has the slightest idea how to disengage from Iraq. It is ridiculous to assume that there is some solution floating out there that is obvious to experts but not to posters on the Classical Music Guide. The US has the best strategic setup for everything in the world and nobody has a clue how to do this. And I assure you that at places like the Command and General Staff College in Washington they are working on it all the time at a theoretical level. But they don't know any more than you and I know.

This is why we are in Iraq for the duration, the duration of what we cannot know. Not because our involvement was inevitable, but because our retraction is inscrutable.

[Barry]

Well, Barry and Herman, are you poaching on my spoecialty, which is typos?

As long as I'm so erratic in this repect, I can't possivbly criticize "speach" or "Mein Kempf," and that's hardly the subject here, is it?

But remember, in contemplating the Islamofscists' view of the planet a hudred years from now, that Hitler's Thousand-Year Reich lasted just twelve years.

I was in Berchtesgaden in 1945 and have a photo in my memoirs that shows his grandiloquent "Adlerhorst" residence in ruins - a fit metaphor for the end of his megalomania.

I'm very thankful to you for your service, Werner.

But don't you think that had we (or actually, Europe) taken Hitler more seriously a few years earlier, the thousand year reich would have lasted even fewer than 12 years and millions of lives would have been spared?

[Barry]

Herman, would you do us a favor? Would you suggest a reasonable disengagement strategy? A compromise would be fine, it doesn't have to be perfect.

I don't have to, and nobody else on this forum has to. I wouldn't take anybody seriously who felt he could write strategy for 150.00 troops on a music forum, thank you. That's what makes Pizza so funny at times.

I've stated how poor my spelling is on here a couple times in the past. If you want to make fun of it, go ahead. I suppose when you've got nothing but defeatism or really anything of substance to offer, that's what one resorts to.

I'm sorry but I'm of the school of thinking that believes that the ability to read and write well is not a technical matter, but an expression of one's ability to think clearly. People who write muddily tend to do so because that's the way they think. In your case, when writing is your trade it's even more telling. You don't respect your trade - you think journalists shouldn't tell the truth, but just print WH handouts; and you don't care what the language looks like. It's a choice. Not mine.

Herman,
I'm an editorial assistant. I write one paragraph summaries of movie plots, food-related events and television highlights and an ocassional full-length food-related article. You're going to think what you wish, but the notion that one can't do the above and still have a problem with the way international correspondents and editors are covering the war seems like pretty convoluted logic to me. And if you think being a poor speller is a sign of not being able to think clearly, you're an even bigger fool than I thought. Your lack of any insight, objectivity and willingness to see that there is another side to what's happening in Iraq than the defeatist (and innacurate) mantra you repeatedly spew clearly shows that being a good speller and a master of grammar is no guarantee of being able to get a coherent thought across.

I know I've said it before, but it's really amazing that when the chips are down, Europeans turn to talk of appeasement and defeatism. It never changes. While a majority of Americans are not happy that we're in Iraq, close to 60 percent in the most recent poll said we should not be talking about a pull-out at this point. They at least understand that cutting and running would make things worse, rather than better.

Lets contrast that with Europe, circa spring of 1940, when all anyone wanted to talk about was the hope that Churchill would sue Hitler for peace on German terms to avoid the inevitable defeat, which of course never came. You're as pathetic as the Europeans of that generation.

[Ralph]

Sorry to be my usual stickler for details, John, but the Army's Command and General Staff College is at Fort Leavenworth, KS.

GEN Pace is an outstanding officer and his elevation to Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is a well-deserved accolade both to him and the Marines. In my Army days the idea of a Marine Chairman would have been greeted with guffaws.

Under the various defense reorganization acts the Joint Chiefs Chairman is pragmatically but not legally, of course, politically part of the administration he serves. I have no doubt GEN Pace believes what he says but psychologists may well term his views as reflecting "motivated bias." He has no other choice intellectually.

Of course he MAY be right too but very many Americans doubt that. I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.

And I also don't join those here who see so-called "Islamo-Fascism" as the well-constructed and diabolically controlled mass conspiracy others do. We can't have it both ways - Cheney and Rumsfeld, the latter the stupidest man I have ever seen as SecDef, keep saying the insurgency is being brought under control and will be defeated in Iraq through Vietmaniza..., I mean Iraqi-controlled suppression forces. While there is progress in training Iraqis there is serious doubt as to the long-term stability and loyalty of those nascent forces.

Bush's presentation at Annapolis this week, yet another time he appeared before a guaranteed audience of cheering folks, has been rightly rejected by most Americans. It was fluff with high-grade graphics. Jon Stewart wasn't off when he described the presentation as looking like a board game.

I don't think we can precipately leave Iraq but a timetable for gradual disengagement that is realistic is essential. If the Iraqis do not truly care to establish a democracy, even within the context of their national identity, we can't bring it about.

Ten Marines died in the last day. Americans won't accept such casualties much longer.

[Barry]

...Under the various defense reorganization acts the Joint Chiefs Chairman is pragmatically but not legally, of course, politically part of the administration he serves. I have no doubt GEN Pace believes what he says but psychologists may well term his views as reflecting "motivated bias." He has no other choice intellectually.

So in other words, when the message isn't being delivered, criticize the administration for that, and when it is being delivered, criticize them for not being objective.

Of course he MAY be right too but very many Americans doubt that. I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel.

It's not where near as bleak as the picture you're painting. The light is clearly visible. It just takes patience to get there.

And I also don't join those here who see so-called "Islamo-Fascism" as the well-constructed and diabolically controlled mass conspiracy others do.

They're clearly not all operating under one single command structure. But their motives and means they use to achieve their goals come from similar sources which can probably be traced back to a fairly narrow base. And they are most certainly diabolical. I'd call it a loose mass conspiracy. Enough evidence has been turned up over the past few years to confirm that. We will be taking the Islamofacist movement lightly at our own peril.

[Werner]

Barry- you're welcome.But I think your hypothsis is off.

It's easy to say that the West should have acted differently some seventy years ago. All we know for sure is that for whatever reason that did not happen. That in no way justifies the present administration's rushing into Iraq like a bull in a china shop and wrecking a ciountry about whose culture it has proven itself totally ignorant and claim to be bringing democracy to he people there.

Now if we had some intelligence instead of muissionary bluster........

[Barry]

...I wouldn't take anybody seriously who felt he could write strategy for 150.00 troops on a music forum, thank you.

Yet someone on a message board who says the situation is hopeless should be taken with complete seriousness. Right.

[Barry]

Barry- you're welcome.But I think your hypothsis is off.

It's easy to say that the West should have acted differently some seventy years ago. All we know for sure is that for whatever reason that did not happen.

Werner,
The best reason to study history is to learn from the mistakes that were made. It should have been clear back in the mid to late 30s that Hitler was a major menace who needed to be dealt with before he had the power to do major harm. He stated his intentions clearly, just as our current enemies have done. People were paralyzed by the fear that World War I generated, so their attitude was to do anything to avoid another major conflict (in other words, they learned the wrong lesson). Well it got them one that was much worse than the one they would have had if they had acted sooner.

[Werner]

Lots has ben written about the origins of World War II, none of it relevant to the present situation.

Rather than learning from the mistakes of the past, our current Commander in Chief (I shudder every time he refers to himself as such) is improvising his own.

There have been times when I've seen a boy trying to do a man's job. But at this level?

[Barry]

Okay. I've beaten my head against a brick wall enough for one night. I'll leave it to Pizza or Corlyss (welcome back) to pick this up.

I'd say I should just ignore the defeatists, but it's important for those of us who know the sky isn't falling and that winning this war is crucial to be heard and not allow the naysayers to carry the day. Of course, the fact that the people calling the shots are on our side of this debate helps .

[Werner]

I don't think anyone here is defeatist, Barry. I think if you'll read my previous posts again you'll get my drift.

No point in more detail - and I hope that you haven't come off this discussion with a headache. If it lasts, how about taking two aspirins, and calling your doc in the morning?

[Barry]

I don't think anyone here is defeatist, Barry. I think if you'll read my previous posts again you'll get my drift.

No point in more detail - and I hope that you haven't come off this discussion with a headache. If it lasts, how about taking two aspirins, and calling your doc in the morning?

No headache . I've actually had a wonderful day. I took the day off and saw the best live performance of the Eroica (my favorite symphony) that I ever hope to hear and ate at a fabulous new tapas restaurant.

Needless to say I think you, Herman, Ralph and anyone else who agrees with you are not seeing things clearly and as they truly are. But we'll just have to agree to disagree, at least until tomorrow .

[jbuck919]

Sorry to be my usual stickler for details, John, but the Army's Command and General Staff College is at Fort Leavenworth, KS.

Oh, I knew that. There's something going on at Ft. McNair (the War College?) and I can't keep these things straight. Just try to figure out teh European command after having lived in the middle of it for over a year. (Icon for hammering self on head.)

[Corlyss_D]

Sorry to be my usual stickler for details, John, but the Army's Command and General Staff College is at Fort Leavenworth, KS.

Oh, I knew that. There's something going on at Ft. McNair (the War College?) and I can't keep these things straight. Just try to figure out teh European command after having lived in the middle of it for over a year. (Icon for hammering self on head.)

It's cause the names are all so much alike. The National War College, Information Resources Management College, and the Industrial College of the Armed Forces are located at Ft. McNair. The Naval War College is in Newport, Rhode Island. The Air War College is tenant at Maxwell AFB in Alabama. The Army War College is in Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Naval Graduate School is in Monteray, Ca. The Joint Forces Staff College is in Norfolk, Va. The Command and General Staff School is in Leavenworth, Ks.

[Corlyss_D]

I've not seen Pace for any extended period of time, so I'm glad for this report on his telecompetence.

Anyone looking for a timetable - i.e., specific dates for withdrawal regardless of the state of the Iraqi security forces ain't gonna see one except from the defeatest rabble in the Democratic party, which, unfortunately, seems to be the permanently juvenile leadership.

[Ralph]

I enjoyed visiting both Ft. Mc Nair (named after a three-star general killed in France by our own bombs) and Ft. Myers when I was in the Pentagon. Both had great officers clubs although they were a little formal for my tastes.

[Alban Berg]

He pointed out that 14 of Iraq's 18 provinces are relatively stable and going on with the business of life.

Especially as Baghdad is one of the 4 unstable provinces, and given the flabbiness of the term "relatively," that is a completely meaningless statistic — unless it's accompanied by some indication of how populous and religiously diverse these 14 provinces are, and if there has been some progress in them from a previously unstable condition. It would be like saying, "40 of the United States are stable, especially Montana, Wyoming, and Alaska," while conveniently omitting that the unstable ones are New York, Massachusetts, California, Illinois, Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Michigan, and New Jersey, plus the District of Columbia.

I saw a bit of the joint news conference with Pace and Rumsfeld, and Pace impressed me most when he refused to take Rumsfeld's crap about simply "reporting" acts of torture (so that such "reports" could lie conveniently on some superior's desk for months being ignored). I wonder if Pace received any dressing down from Scummy Rummy afterwards, or if his principled independence bodes ill for his tenure as CotJCoS:

Q: And General Pace, what guidance do you have for your military commanders over there as to what to do if -- like when General Horst found this Interior Ministry jail [where evidence of torture was widespread]?

GEN. PACE: It is absolutely the responsibility of every U.S. service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene to stop it. As an example of how to do it if you don't see it happening but you're told about it is exactly what happened a couple weeks ago. There's a report from an Iraqi to a U.S. commander that there was possibility of inhumane treatment in a particular facility. That U.S. commander got together with his Iraqi counterparts. They went together to the facility, found what they found, reported it to the Iraqi government, and the Iraqi government has taken ownership of that problem and is investigating it. So they did exactly what they should have done.

SEC. RUMSFELD: But I don't think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it; it's to report it.

GEN. PACE: If they are physically present when inhumane treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it.

[Barry]

As I said, when they don't get the message out, they're criticized for that. When they try to put it out, they're criticized for the way they do it. There is a segment of the population they will never be able to win with (you and those who have a similar attitude will look for a way to pick apart and downplay virtually any good news they give), and they should go on ignoring that segment of the population and continue to do what they think needs to be done to win the war.

On Pace, yes, one can never be sure without knowing a person, but he certainly struck me as a man of character.

Knowing your fondness for tapas, I'd recommend hitting the place I mentioned above if you make it to Philly for a concert (assuming we can fit it in either before or after the concert. It's at the other end of Center City). I don't claim to know how authentic it is (it's probably pan-several different cuisines with a tapas theme), but I CAN say the food was tremendous. They turned something as simple as a ham croquette into one of the best tasting dishes I've had lately.

[jbuck919]

I enjoyed visiting both Ft. Mc Nair (named after a three-star general killed in France by our own bombs) and Ft. Myers when I was in the Pentagon. Both had great officers clubs although they were a little formal for my tastes.

I hate to be the purist, Ralph, but it is Ft. Myer. Ft. Myers is in Florida.

Boy do I love getting even.

[Alban Berg]

Anyone looking for a timetable - i.e., specific dates for withdrawal regardless of the state of the Iraqi security forces ain't gonna see one except from the defeatest rabble in the Democratic party, which, unfortunately, seems to be the permanently juvenile leadership.

I happen to believe George Bush very definitely has a timetable in mind for "Victory" (whatever that means this day of the week), and the timetable is Election Day 2006.

I also do not equate "withdrawal" as equivalent to "defeatism." The slogan "cut and run" is always used sneeringly to imply cowardice. But there's another side to this debate that the "stay the course" crowd never acknowledges, which is that the longer we stay in Iraq the more we encourage an infantile dependence of the Iraqi security forces on us to fight their battles for them. If we keep waiting for them to stand up so we can stand down (all the while they whine that we're "occupiers"), we'll be waiting forever. It's time for us to say: you are a sovereign nation, you are responsible for your own security, you cannot expect American troops to keep doing your jobs for you indefinitely. And this is what I think was fundamentally behind Jack Murtha's call for a principled withdrawal, not some kind of caricatural "cowardice."

[Alban Berg]

As I said, when they don't get the message out, they're criticized for that. When they try to put it out, they're criticized for the way they do it. There is a segment of the population they will never be able to win with (you and those who have a similar attitude will look for a way to pick apart and downplay virtually any good news they give).

No. I simply want to make sure the "good news" is genuinely "good news" and not a faked use of statistics that falls apart on closer examination. If you want some good news (and I'm not being in the least ironic now), here's an encouraging and significant piece of good news:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib ... 5road.html

Knowing your fondness for tapas, I'd recommend hitting the place I mentioned above if you make it to Philly for a concert (assuming we can fit it in either before or after the concert. It's at the other end of Center City). I don't claim to know how authentic it is (it's probably pan-several different cuisines with a tapas theme), but I CAN say the food was tremendous. They turned something as simple as a ham croquette into one of the best tasting dishes I've had lately.

There are hundreds of varieties of tapas. Ham croquettes are definitely autentico.

[Barry]

I also do not equate "withdrawal" as equivalent to "defeatism." The slogan "cut and run" is always used sneeringly to imply cowardice. But there's another side to this debate that the "stay the course" crowd never acknowledges, which is that the longer we stay in Iraq the more we encourage an infantile dependence of the Iraqi security forces on us to fight their battles for them. If we keep waiting for them to stand up so we can stand down (all the while they whine that we're "occupiers"), we'll be waiting forever. It's time for us to say: you are a sovereign nation, you are responsible for your own security, you cannot expect American troops to keep doing your jobs for you indefinitely. And this is what I think was fundamentally behind Jack Murtha's call for a principled withdrawal, not some kind of caricatural "cowardice."

The cut and run crowd, led by John Kerry, is using the above logic as a way to make it look like they aren't advocating a cut and run strategy (again, I should say that I have little doubt that Murtha sincerely believes in this, but people like Kerry and Pelosi are jumping on the bandwagon.......i.e. they aren't providing real leadership). Progress is being made with the Iraqi forces. They haven't come as far as they need to in order to be left on their own yet. But there is good reason to believe they will be eventually. The important thing is to not pull out prematurely. And doing so before the Iraqi troops are capable of handling the insurgency with a greatly reduced number of U.S. troops would be premature. The vast majority of serious foreign and international security policy experts, including those who opposed the war in the first place, feel that pulling out now or soon would make the situation in Iraq much worse than it currently is.

[Alban Berg]

The cut and run crowd, led by John Kerry, is using the above logic as a way to make it look like they aren't advocating a cut and run strategy. Progress is being made with the Iraqi forces. They haven't come as far as they need to in order to be left on their own yet. But there is good reason to believe they will be eventually. The important thing is to not pull out prematurely. And doing so before the Iraqi troops are capable of handling the insurgency with a greatly reduced number of U.S. troops would be premature. The vast majority of serious foreign and international security policy experts, including those who opposed the war in the first place, feel that pulling out now or soon would make the situation in Iraq much worse than it currently is.

So long as we keep using the misleading and pejorative metaphor of "cutting and running," we imply that leaving Iraq is an act of cowardice, rather than an act of responsibility. You use slippery words like "eventually" and "prematurely," but in fact it can be always argued that any withdrawal will be premature, and that "eventually" they'll be ready to stand on their own two feet so long as that's in some vague, indefinite future. That's the same argument that dependent individuals and their enablers always use: don't take the training wheels off the bike because the kid will fall, I'm not ready to find an apartment on my own, etc etc.

I am not btw saying I am confident immediate withdrawal is the best option. But regardless of what the "vast majority" say, their opinions are not holy writ. Since you are always interested in in-depth coverage, may I recommend just as food for thought Nir Rosen's article in the December Atlantic, "If America Left Iraq: The Case for Cutting and Running." The same issue has as its cover story a more pessimistic viewpoint by James Fallows arguing that, on the contrary, we are not taking the task of building an Iraqi army seriously enough.

[Ralph]

I enjoyed visiting both Ft. Mc Nair (named after a three-star general killed in France by our own bombs) and Ft. Myers when I was in the Pentagon. Both had great officers clubs although they were a little formal for my tastes.

I hate to be the purist, Ralph, but it is Ft. Myer. Ft. Myers is in Florida.

Boy do I love getting even.

*****

And now you have to wonder if I set you up.

[Barry]

So long as we keep using the misleading and pejorative metaphor of "cutting and running," we imply that leaving Iraq is an act of cowardice, rather than an act of responsibility.

I would put it in terms of not displaying the sort of fortitude necessary to win a protracted, vital struggle. And I think it would be an act of irresponsibility.

[jbuck919]

So long as we keep using the misleading and pejorative metaphor of "cutting and running," we imply that leaving Iraq is an act of cowardice, rather than an act of responsibility.

I would put it in terms of not displaying the sort of fortitude necessary to win a protracted, vital struggle. And I think it would be an act of irresponsibility.

At this point I still agree with Barry. No one has suggested a way out that mitigates the difference between sticking it out and cutting and running with disastrous consequences.

However, we were in Vietnam for ten years. That, friends, is as long as the Trojan War of myth and that length of time was considered an exaggerated example for literary effect. (Before anybody jumps in, I am aware that both the Hundred Years War and the Thirty Years War really did last that long but they are a different matter.) And then we did a slow motion cut and run, having accomplished exactly nothing at the expense of millions of lives (if you count the Vietnamese) and untold damage in other ways.

I don't have a crystal ball and can't prognosticate Iraq, but I do have that awful memory in the back of my mind. A war whose prosecution is open-ended with no clear plan for victory over an enemy is a scary thing. Even in Vietnam we knew what would constitute victory. In Iraq we do not.

[Barry]

...I don't have a crystal ball and can't prognosticate Iraq, but I do have that awful memory in the back of my mind. A war whose prosecution is open-ended with no clear plan for victory over an enemy is a scary thing. Even in Vietnam we knew what would constitute victory. In Iraq we do not.

Actually, that's not the case, John. From the President's National Strategy for Victory:

OUR NATIONAL STRATEGY FOR VICTORY IN IRAQ:
Helping the Iraqi People Defeat the Terrorists and Build an Inclusive Democratic State

Victory in Iraq is Defined in Stages
Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.
Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential.
Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism.

Victory in Iraq is a Vital U.S. Interest
Iraq is the central front in the global war on terror. Failure in Iraq will embolden terrorists and expand their reach; success in Iraq will deal them a decisive and crippling blow.
The fate of the greater Middle East -- which will have a profound and lasting impact on American security -- hangs in the balance.
Failure is Not an Option
Iraq would become a safe haven from which terrorists could plan attacks against America, American interests abroad, and our allies.
Middle East reformers would never again fully trust American assurances of support for democracy and human rights in the region -- a historic opportunity lost.
The resultant tribal and sectarian chaos would have major consequences for American security and interests in the region....

[jbuck919]

The easy reply would be that those goals sound like the goals set for my school which sound somethig like every student will go to Harvard (obviously I'm exaggerating but the real goals are equally impractical).

The frank reply is that I'm embarrassed that I did not know about these goals. I have no clue whether they are realizable, but at least they are goals.

[Corlyss_D]

I enjoyed visiting both Ft. Mc Nair (named after a three-star general killed in France by our own bombs) and Ft. Myers when I was in the Pentagon. Both had great officers clubs although they were a little formal for my tastes.

Ft. Meyers is in Florida. Ft. Myer is in Arlington Va.

The General quotient spoils both places. Did you notice the General's quarters at Ft. McNair, right on the waterfront? Primo real estate. I went on a tour of the National War College with Nathan's dad when he was in a reserve unit in DC and was allowed to invite a guest for the show back when we worked at IRS. The most fascinating thing about the tour was their collection of Lincoln memorabilia much of it concerning the assassination conspirators who were imprisoned, tried, and hanged there. Some of the buildings from that era still remain.

[Corlyss_D]

The frank reply is that I'm embarrassed that I did not know about these goals. I have no clue whether they are realizable, but at least they are goals.

See? The MSM has failed you again.