I'm A Purist, and for Good Reason

[dulcinea]

Today the SUNDAY BAROQUE show presented an arrangement of a chaconne of JSB scored for violin, cello and PIANO; earlier in the week WUSF-FM presented a performance of the First Suite of THE WATER MUSIC in which Previn used the FULL Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. It was TORTURE--the pieces sounded totally wrong. The Bach sounded like a piece of the Romantic Era, while the Handel came across as a poor imitation of Wagner at his most bombastic.

[Corlyss_D]

Yeah. It's enough to make you restrict your listening to the Kuijkens, Bruggen, Bylsma, and Savall.

[Brendan]

Personally, I'm still undecided about HIP. At our last concert here, we had Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven's 3rd played using the original orchestration (but modern instruments).

Much as I love Papa Haydn's music, it could have used some extra hands. The Mozart flute concerto was also feeble, so I was surprised when Beethoven's 3rd took off. Best live performance of it I've heard.

Same for me with HIP recordings. Some I consider revelatory, others make me wonder why they bothered. As ever, I'll have to give each a listen and decide on its own merits, rather than being able to jump on any bandwagon.

[Ralph]

Today the SUNDAY BAROQUE show presented an arrangement of a chaconne of JSB scored for violin, cello and PIANO; earlier in the week WUSF-FM presented a performance of the First Suite of THE WATER MUSIC in which Previn used the FULL Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. It was TORTURE--the pieces sounded totally wrong. The Bach sounded like a piece of the Romantic Era, while the Handel came across as a poor imitation of Wagner at his most bombastic.

*****

So why didja listen?

[dulcinea]

Today the SUNDAY BAROQUE show presented an arrangement of a chaconne of JSB scored for violin, cello and PIANO; earlier in the week WUSF-FM presented a performance of the First Suite of THE WATER MUSIC in which Previn used the FULL Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. It was TORTURE--the pieces sounded totally wrong. The Bach sounded like a piece of the Romantic Era, while the Handel came across as a poor imitation of Wagner at his most bombastic.

*****

So why didja listen?

How do you prefer Ditters: original, or with all the extras?

[Ralph]

Today the SUNDAY BAROQUE show presented an arrangement of a chaconne of JSB scored for violin, cello and PIANO; earlier in the week WUSF-FM presented a performance of the First Suite of THE WATER MUSIC in which Previn used the FULL Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra. It was TORTURE--the pieces sounded totally wrong. The Bach sounded like a piece of the Romantic Era, while the Handel came across as a poor imitation of Wagner at his most bombastic.

*****

So why didja listen?

How do you prefer Ditters: original, or with all the extras?

*****

Original instruments. I can't really see the Vienna Philharmonic doing Dittersdorf.

[jbuck919]

I can't really see the Vienna Philharmonic doing Dittersdorf.

Me neither.

There is a long tradition of arranging the Bach chaconne, including an arrangement for left hand piano by Brahms.

[david johnson]

i would not find such an experience torturous.

dj

[Corlyss_D]

i would not find such an experience torturous.

dj

We're compiling a list of things that tick off Dulcinea. So far it's staggering in its catholicity.

[Barry]

At the risk of irritating her further, about the only baroque music I listen to is the Stokowski Bach transcriptions .

[jbuck919]

At the risk of irritating her further, about the only baroque music I listen to is the Stokowski Bach transcriptions .

Which are perfectly ghastly.

[Barry]

At the risk of irritating her further, about the only baroque music I listen to is the Stokowski Bach transcriptions .

Which are perfectly ghastly.

Apparently not to me. I've heard Stoki's old band perform the Toccatta and Fugue a couple times live under Sawallisch and absolutely loved the way it sounded. It's a thrilling concert piece for big orchestra.

[jbuck919]

At the risk of irritating her further, about the only baroque music I listen to is the Stokowski Bach transcriptions .

Which are perfectly ghastly.

Apparently not to me. I've heard Stoki's old band perform the Toccatta and Fugue a couple times live under Sawallisch and absolutely loved the way it sounded. It's a thrilling concert piece for big orchestra.

I think you're living with your your old Philly existence, Barry, under Stokowski, just as I am with with my Trophy Point tradition for Sunday Nights at West Point . That stuff was always pops. It doesn't make it awful, but it does, well, keep it pops.

[Corlyss_D]

At the risk of irritating her further, about the only baroque music I listen to is the Stokowski Bach transcriptions .

Yes, but your other credentials are good, to paraphrase Charles Farrar Browne.

[Barry]

Thank you kindly.

I realize it's at the very least pushing the borders of pops, especially with the Tocatta and Fugue, John. It's a guilty pleasure; although in reality, I feel no guilt .

[premont]

Even in this context I am happy to live in a free country.

[david johnson]

(We're compiling a list of things that tick off Dulcinea. So far it's staggering in its catholicity. )

well, then -

beecham's handel's goossen's messiah!!

delightful. the way handel wanted it!!

dj

[rogch]

Original instruments. I can't really see the Vienna Philharmonic doing Dittersdorf.

Perhaps not the Vienna Philharmonic. But i am sure Harnoncourt could have done it well with the Concertgebouw orchestra or Chamber orchestra of Europe.

[rogch]

In the classical and early romantic reportoire i don't listen to recordings on period instruments as much as i used to. Many of the great conductors are not at all as dull, heavy and slow as some purists claim. But in the baroque reportoire i think period instrments often are superior, but i wouldn't call myself a purist. There are exceptions of course, but the sound of modern instruments combined with old-fashioned interpretations often make the pieces sound too heavy. Take Klemperer, one of my favourite conductors. He is exceptional in Mahler and Beethoven, i can stomach his Mozart, but his Bach? Just doesn't work.

It is somewhat painfull to admit it, i love "politically incorrect" music making. And if interpretations based on historic research were refreshing 30 years ago, they are now often predictable. What a bore Beethoven's fifth is these days. One of the exceptions is Harnoncourt, you never know what he is up to. He plays like a musician, not like an archeologist.

I like Stokowski's transcriptions, but i don't listen to them as baroque music. But Schönberg's transcriptions are even better of course.

[anasazi]

To be perfectly fair to Stokowski, his first professional music job was as an organist in NYC. His love of Bach and playing his organ pieces came very naturally. Considering the opportunities for presenting Bach to a larger audience in the 1920's, I don't believe his transcriptions were bad. They did bring Bach's music before a much larger audience.

I rather enjoy them still. EMI recently released a Stokowski Legend CD with most of his most famous transcriptions. I enjoy it immensly. But I also enjoy Bach done by Boston Baroque, Glenn Gould and Wendy Carlos.

[jbuck919]

To be perfectly fair to Stokowski, his first professional music job was as an organist in NYC. His love of Bach and playing his organ pieces came very naturally. Considering the opportunities for presenting Bach to a larger audience in the 1920's, I don't believe his transcriptions were bad. They did bring Bach's music before a much larger audience.

I rather enjoy them still. EMI recently released a Stokowski Legend CD with most of his most famous transcriptions. I enjoy it immensly. But I also enjoy Bach done by Boston Baroque, Glenn Gould and Wendy Carlos.

Much Bach is very transcribable. I don't like the Stokowski transcriptions of the organ works because they take all the tenseness out of them, but that's an organist speaking and a matter of taste. However, I did hear relatively recently for the first time Schoenberg's transcription of the large chorale "Schmueke dich," and it is brilliant, astonishing for its idiomaticity (is that a word?) at a time when Bach was normally performed as though he had been writing in the 19th century.

[johnQpublic]

I can't really see the Vienna Philharmonic doing Dittersdorf.

Of course they won't.

It's both a matter of standards and dignity.

[Jack Kelso]

I'm not a purist, but things should be arranged using common sense and a good amount of taste.

One of my all-time favorites (I got it in the 1960's) is "Love in Bath", the (unperformed) ballet Beecham composed based on themes from the Handel operas. It's stirring, humorous, charming, romantic and full of fine melodies. It was based on a supposed incident in the life of dramatist Richard Brinsley Sheridan.

Respighi's "Zauberladen" ("Magic Toy Shop"), grounded on tunes of Rossini, is a more famous charmer.

Now---what was the name of William Walton's ballet based on J.S. Bach's music...?!

Jack

[Harold Tucker]

It was "The Wise Virgins".

[Jack Kelso]

It was "The Wise Virgins".

Thanks, Harold. I haven't heard it in awhile.

About the Handel-Hardy "Water Music" arrangement: it's just too slick, too smooth, unemotional and glossy. It's almost as bad as those t.v. sitcoms.

Another tip for purists: 0ver 40 years ago, Leonard Bernstein showed that the Schumann symphonies sound far better without any Mahlerian or otherwise orchestration tampering. That holds even more true today as virtually all conductors worldwide includes these symphonies in their repertoire.

Jack

[jbuck919]

It was "The Wise Virgins".

Thanks, Harold. I haven't heard it in awhile.

About the Handel-Hardy "Water Music" arrangement: it's just too slick, too smooth, unemotional and glossy. It's almost as bad as those t.v. sitcoms.

Another tip for purists: 0ver 40 years ago, Leonard Bernstein showed that the Schumann symphonies sound far better without any Mahlerian or otherwise orchestration tampering. That holds even more true today as virtually all conductors worldwide includes these symphonies in their repertoire.

Jack

He also did a famous "built-back" production of Carmen.

One arrangement along the lines of what is being discussed that I personally do not care for is the ballet Les Sylphides. Too much in there that that really only belongs on the piano, it seems to me. Though now that I think of it his funeral march was orchestrated in his own lifetime and used at his own funeral. I guess that works.

Though it may seem obvious, nobody has stated that our model and "permission" for doing this at all comes from the composers themselves. To cite just a couple of examples off the top of my head, Bach made arrangements of cantata numbers for organ and had them published (the Schuebler Chorales), implying that in such a huge output more should be possible, though with the exception of the ubiquitous "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring," which is not something I like seeing arranged in the first place, I don't know of any that have been made.

And Beethoven also made arrangements of his own works for other media, including turning one of his piano sonatas into a string quartet.

[Jack Kelso]

It was "The Wise Virgins".

Thanks, Harold. I haven't heard it in awhile.

About the Handel-Hardy "Water Music" arrangement: it's just too slick, too smooth, unemotional and glossy. It's almost as bad as those t.v. sitcoms.

Another tip for purists: 0ver 40 years ago, Leonard Bernstein showed that the Schumann symphonies sound far better without any Mahlerian or otherwise orchestration tampering. That holds even more true today as virtually all conductors worldwide includes these symphonies in their repertoire.

Jack

He also did a famous "built-back" production of Carmen.

One arrangement along the lines of what is being discussed that I personally do not care for is the ballet Les Sylphides. Too much in there that that really only belongs on the piano, it seems to me. Though now that I think of it his funeral march was orchestrated in his own lifetime and used at his own funeral. I guess that works.

Though it may seem obvious, nobody has stated that our model and "permission" for doing this at all comes from the composers themselves. To cite just a couple of examples off the top of my head, Bach made arrangements of cantata numbers for organ and had them published (the Schuebler Chorales), implying that in such a huge output more should be possible, though with the exception of the ubiquitous "Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring," which is not something I like seeing arranged in the first place, I don't know of any that have been made.

And Beethoven also made arrangements of his own works for other media, including turning one of his piano sonatas into a string quartet.

Yes---and then there's Beethoven's Violin Concerto which he arranged as a "sixth" piano concerto....but it doesn't quite come off for me.

I agree wholeheartedly about "Les Sylphides", although I have it in my collection but never play it. Schumann's "Carnaval" was also turned into a ballet (by Ravel, Glasunov, Arensky and other Russian composers!), but works a little better because his piano style was more orchestral than Chopin's.

About the only piano work I enjoy equally as much as the orchestral version is "Pictures at an Exhibition".

Jack

What do you think of Liszt's piano transcriptions of the Beethoven symphonies? I find only nos. 1, 2, 5 and 8 at all interesting. He even arranged his own "Les Préludes" for piano. Wow!