What is the "perfect" performance? Is it only ment

Locked
IcedNote
Posts: 2963
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:24 pm
Location: NYC

What is the "perfect" performance? Is it only ment

Post by IcedNote » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:51 pm

My friend raised this question the other day...rather jokingly in all honesty. But it got me thinking.

Say I look at a score and "hear" it in my head while reading it. The performance will be perfect...at least in regards to my personal interpretation of it.

Now I go to play this piece. Can I ever get to that level where my performance is "perfect" and exactly reflects what I hear in my head?

That being said, is the "perfect" performance the one that solely exists in my head? Taking that a step further, is the only "absolute-perfect" performance the one that the composer heard in his head as he wrote it?

Or maybe I'm just rambling on about nothing. :)

-G
Harakiried composer reincarnated as a nonprofit development guy.

premont
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:15 pm

Post by premont » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:34 pm

The concept of perfect performance makes no sense IMO, and I think it should be discarded. Probably not even the composers hear their own music in their heads in excactly the same way all the time. And much of the fascination with composed music is IMO the possibility (within certain limits) of interpreting it in more different ways. Imagine someone who had managed to record the supposed perfect performance, sanctioned by the composer. Every other recording would become superfluous, and live performances would become similar.
Certainly a depressing prospect.

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26856
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:17 pm

All the great composers heard their works in their heads. This is most obviously true of Beethoven, and for obvious reasons. They also wanted them to be realized by hear-able forces. It is a huge paradox that I doubt anyone will ever solve.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

paulb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:46 pm

This question can best be answered by listening to any David Oistrakh recording. I also feel most every Gidon Kremer recording has a quality of perfection.
I also know of various recordings of Ravel's piano works by 4 certain pianists that capture this rare quality of the compoer's ideal.
But most all other works in any composer have some subjectiveness.
Beethoven's solo piano and sq's. Everyone has their favorite. I think the historic Busch quartet comes closest to the ideal Beethoven. Others disagree. Who is right?
Composers know when a performer gets the idea and when it misses.
Take the 2 Shostakovich sym cycles from Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Both very close but at times different. I have personal favs in one set , and favs in the others, but nothing that keeps me from enjoying both. I've also heard the haitink/Concertgebouw in the 11th, which is excellent.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

paulb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:47 pm

This question can best be answered by listening to any David Oistrakh recording. I also feel most every Gidon Kremer recording has a quality of perfection.
I also know of various recordings of Ravel's piano works by 4 certain pianists that capture this rare quality of the compoer's ideal.
But most all other works in any composer have some subjectiveness.
Beethoven's solo piano and sq's. Everyone has their favorite. I think the historic Busch quartet comes closest to the ideal Beethoven. Others disagree. Who is right?
Composers know when a performer gets the idea and when it misses.
Take the 2 Shostakovich sym cycles from Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky. Both very close but at times different. I have personal favs in one set , and favs in the others, but nothing that keeps me from enjoying both. I've also heard the haitink/Concertgebouw in the 11th, which is excellent.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

Ralph
Dittersdorf Specialist & CMG NY Host
Posts: 20990
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am
Location: Paradise on Earth, New York, NY

Post by Ralph » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:12 pm

A "perfect performance" has as much to do with where I am and how I'm feeling as it does with the quality of playing or musicianship. A Mahler symphony may be a perfect performance for me because it combines a fine orchestra and conductor with my highly receptive state. It won't be perfect if I have a lot on my mind that even great music can't banish.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

premont
Posts: 698
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2005 2:15 pm

Post by premont » Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:09 am

jbuck919 wrote:All the great composers heard their works in their heads.
Of course, but not in the same way all the time. And I think even composers may become delighted when listening to different interpretations of their works.

jbuck919
Military Band Specialist
Posts: 26856
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
Location: Stony Creek, New York

Post by jbuck919 » Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:19 am

premont wrote:
jbuck919 wrote:All the great composers heard their works in their heads.
Of course, but not in the same way all the time. And I think even composers may become delighted when listening to different interpretations of their works.
Agreed, which makes Beethoven even more remarakable.

There are composers who never or rarely heard adequate performances of their own work, set aside deafness, and they range from Bach, who constantly complained about the performing forces in Leipzig for works that are now routine to us, to Schoenberg. If you listen to his own old recording of Pierrot Lunaire (probably not available right now), it is a tissue of compromises that would make you cry.

There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach

Heck148
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:55 am

perfection is an illusive concept, and in a performance it may be judged on at least two different levels:
objective and subjective.

objectively, it is possible to have a "perfect" performance:
all the notes were played with accuracy, pitch and rhythm-wise, intonation was accurate. tempos were appropriate, - IOW, all of the notes were there in the right place.

these are all things that adjudicators listen for when judging the various forms of musical performance festivals and competitions, at all levels...

subjectively - this is much tougher to gauge, since so much depends upon the preference, the mood of the listener...the performance was too fast, too slow, too loud, too soft, too rushed, not enough energy, etc, etc..

the same performance may be received differently by 5 audience members all sitting right next to each other. they alll heard the same notes, played the same way, but it affected them all differently.

in this regard, perfection is most difficult or impossible to define...
"consensus" seems to be about the best we can do...however, this really doesn't matter - because it's the individual listener's own reaction that really counts...if it sounded perfect to that listener, on that day, then that's what it is....at least to that individual.

on this topic, I'm reminded of an anecdote I recalled from a so-called music teacher, a number of years ago, which to me, totally negated the concept of individual taste....the topic of "greatest live performance you've ever heard"...
this guy said he had gone to hear Maria Callas sing. it was near the end of her career, but she was stilll a big draw, and he was really looking forward to it...his recap:

<<gee, you know, she seemed to struggle a bit, she cracked some notes, there were some intonation problems, some difficulty, it really wasn't all that great - but the audience went totally crazy...wild with applause, throwing flowers - they were totally delirious....so I guess it's the greatest thing I ever heard!!>>

:shock: :roll: :? :(

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9812
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Post by karlhenning » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:23 am

The music as I hear it in my head, the "perfect performance"? How can there be a "perfect performance" when I am the only member of the audience? Under the 'music as communication' model, that is the musical equivalent of talking to myself, and I find that about as far from perfect as imaginable.

Any number of performances can be perfect, and they will not necessarily be anything like exact replicas one of another. There is a great deal of breathing room, within the heading "musical perfection."

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

paulb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:32 am

Heck148 wrote:
subjectively - this is much tougher to gauge, since so much depends upon the preference, the mood of the listener...the performance was too fast, too slow, too loud, too soft, too rushed, not enough energy, etc, etc..

:(
Not at a David Oistrakh concert. Sure the audience may find slight issues with the orch and conductor, but I know all 5 audiences will find the performance "perfection".
I've mentioned above others who have this capability. At least on their cds they do. Its subjectively/objectively "perfection".
Gidon Kremer matches Oistrakh in perfection on most everything I;'ve heard from him.
Whereas Heifetz is way too personal in his approach for my taste. Others think he's perfect, I 'do not find him so.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

karlhenning
Composer-in-Residence
Posts: 9812
Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
Location: Boston, MA
Contact:

Post by karlhenning » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:40 am

paulb wrote:
Heck148 wrote:
subjectively - this is much tougher to gauge, since so much depends upon the preference, the mood of the listener...the performance was too fast, too slow, too loud, too soft, too rushed, not enough energy, etc, etc..

:(
Not at a David Oistrakh concert. Sure the audience may find slight issues with the orch and conductor, but I know all 5 audiences will find the performance "perfection".
Well, but what does that mean, Paul? The fact that one performance is "perfection" does not mean that other performances which do sundry other things, are therefore "imperfect."

Music would be a dead art, if performance were a matter of aping "the one all-time perfect performance."

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/

Heck148
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:36 am

paulb wrote:Not at a David Oistrakh concert. Sure the audience may find slight issues with the orch and conductor, but I know all 5 audiences will find the performance "perfection".
I doubt that 5 people would agree on anything, certainly not 5 musician-type people!! :lol:
Gidon Kremer matches Oistrakh in perfection on most everything I;'ve heard from him.
Whereas Heifetz is way too personal in his approach for my taste. Others think he's perfect, I 'do not find him so.
my point exactly..."subjective" perfection is virtually impossible to define..

objective perfection may indeed be attainable, but that in no way guarantees a perfect performance...it simply means the right notes were in the right place...but, as we well know, this does not equate with a "perfect" musical performance/audience experience.

Lance
Site Administrator
Posts: 20766
Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2005 1:27 am
Location: Binghamton, New York
Contact:

Post by Lance » Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:10 pm

I like Premont's first explanation. There probably is no perfect performance of any piece of music. The "perfect performance" for any individual is what his emotional reaction is to it when heard, and that may change from listening to listening, depending on the mood and character of the person hearing it - at the time. No doubt the composers would react to different interpretations heard at different times. That's the beauty of the personal view or interpretation of any piece of music. If the "perfect performance" is going to come into play at all, it has to be on solely an individual basis for that person.
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

Image

Heck148
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:01 pm

Lance wrote:If the "perfect performance" is going to come into play at all, it has to be on solely an individual basis for that person.
yup - that about sums it up.

John Haueisen
Posts: 30
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:57 pm
Location: Worthington, Ohio

"perfect performances"

Post by John Haueisen » Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:40 pm

Others have already raised excellent ideas regarding the "perfect" performance. I can only add that perhaps "perfect" should not be applied to a piece of music anymore than we should decide what makes up a "perfect life."

Could it not be that music, like life, is continuously changing. "Perfect" may impose too much finality on music or life.

Richard Strauss mused quite a bit on the nature of music. Perhaps one of his creations, Ariadne von Naxos' Zerbinetta answers the question. Describing love, she says that just when she thinks she's finally grasped it--or when she thinks she's lost it forever--someone new (or some new performance or performer) comes along and, as if transformed into a god, she has a new "take" on perfection.
"Oh, you wretched mortals--open your eyes--and ears!"

paulb
Posts: 1078
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: baton rouge

Post by paulb » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:16 pm

The one work that I have found to be excellent from most offerings is the violin concerto from Alban Berg.
I've been listening to other works by Berg by many recordings and have been pleased.
There's something about Alban Berg's music that strikes me deeply. Berg was one of Shostakovich's favorite composers.
More on Berg's music later. Especially about the recordings of the vc.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

rwetmore
Posts: 3042
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:24 pm

Post by rwetmore » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:07 pm

objectively, it is possible to have a "perfect" performance:
But only if it is conducted by Morel.

Heck148
Posts: 3664
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:53 pm
Location: New England

Post by Heck148 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:41 pm

rwetmore wrote:
objectively, it is possible to have a "perfect" performance:
But only if it is conducted by Morel.
and heard in EQ-d analog......LOL :lol: :P

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests