Spring Symphony

[lmpower]

I have just watched the German movie "Spring Symphony" with Nastassja Kinski and Herbert Gronemeyer. It deals with the romance of Robert Schumann and Clara Wieck. I wasn't aware of this film until recently. I had always enjoyed the old Hollywood version with Hepburn and Henried. The German film has the advantage of color along with good music and excellent acting. In a way the two films supplement each other, because the German film deals with earlier events and the Hollywood film takes the story to Schumann's death and beyond. I am now inspired to listen to all of my Schumann records beginning with the much maligned symphonies conducted by George Szell. The symphonies aren't really that bad of course. They just suffer in comparison with Beethoven and Brahms. When it comes to songs Schumann can bear comparison with anyone.

[anasazi]

I'm not ready to give up listening to the Schumann symphonies just yet. I also have the Szell set and they are wonderful, but another approach, maybe a bit more passionate is Bernstein with the NYP from the 1960's. There was a reissue of these in France at one time. Find it if you can.

Mostly, I am impressed with Schumann's piano pieces more than anything else.

[Jack Kelso]

I am now inspired to listen to all of my Schumann records beginning with the much maligned symphonies conducted by George Szell. The symphonies aren't really that bad of course. They just suffer in comparison with Beethoven and Brahms. When it comes to songs Schumann can bear comparison with anyone.

Things have changed since Szell recorded the Schumann symphonies.

There are now better performances (Klemperer, Bernstein, Karajan, Kubelik, Solti, Muti, Sawallisch, etc.) and the balances are more keenly observed. Although Szell regarded Schumann as the "greatest Romantic composer" and his symphonic music the core of 19th-century German Romantic orchestral music, his own recordings tended to tighten the expressive values too much and limit the beautiful horn, oboe and 'cello writing of these symphonies. In short, he doesn't let them breathe as they should.

Our opinions of works are influenced by the recordings we have of them.

Schumann's symphonies aren't "much maligned" anymore and don't "suffer in comparison" to Beethoven and Brahms"---any more than Brahms' thick orchestration "suffers in comparison" to Bruckner's Wagnerian orchestration. Schumann's original contributions to symphonic form, rhythm and content had a strong impact on Franck, Brahms, Bruch, Goldmark, Tschaikowsky, Elgar, Mahler, Rachmaninoff and other later symphonists.

Another Schumann myth---that he was a mediocre symphonist---has been debunked by musicologists and conductors. His own Second Symphony was the model for Tschaikowsky's Fourth and Fifth, as well as Rachmaninoff's Second and strongly influenced Schostakowitsch in the composition of his famous Fifth.

Tschüß,
Jack

[jbuck919]

I am now inspired to listen to all of my Schumann records beginning with the much maligned symphonies conducted by George Szell. The symphonies aren't really that bad of course. They just suffer in comparison with Beethoven and Brahms. When it comes to songs Schumann can bear comparison with anyone.

Things have changed since Szell recorded the Schumann symphonies.

There are now better performances (Klemperer, Bernstein, Karajan, Kubelik, Solti, Muti, Sawallisch, etc.) and the balances are more keenly observed. Although Szell regarded Schumann as the "greatest Romantic composer" and his symphonic music the core of 19th-century German Romantic orchestral music, his own recordings tended to tighten the expressive values too much and limit the beautiful horn, oboe and 'cello writing of these symphonies. In short, he doesn't let them breathe as they should.

You're our expert Jack, but Klemperer is "now" when Szell is "then."? Did you mean Werner Klemperer (he was quite a fine musician, you know)?

[walboi]

I could be worth your while to listen to the Gardiner recordings. They make infinite sense to the thing Schumann actually wrote.
Harry

[val]

I have the Gardiner CD regarding the Symphonies 1 and 4. It is very clear, transparent, but I believe that Schumann Symphonies need to be a little more dense, like in Sawallisch. There is a deep emotion, even in the First, that Gardiner seems to forget.
Anyway, it is a very refreshing version.

[Jack Kelso]

I am now inspired to listen to all of my Schumann records beginning with the much maligned symphonies conducted by George Szell. The symphonies aren't really that bad of course. They just suffer in comparison with Beethoven and Brahms. When it comes to songs Schumann can bear comparison with anyone.

Things have changed since Szell recorded the Schumann symphonies.

There are now better performances (Klemperer, Bernstein, Karajan, Kubelik, Solti, Muti, Sawallisch, etc.) and the balances are more keenly observed. Although Szell regarded Schumann as the "greatest Romantic composer" and his symphonic music the core of 19th-century German Romantic orchestral music, his own recordings tended to tighten the expressive values too much and limit the beautiful horn, oboe and 'cello writing of these symphonies. In short, he doesn't let them breathe as they should.

You're our expert Jack, but Klemperer is "now" when Szell is "then."? Did you mean Werner Klemperer (he was quite a fine musician, you know)?

You're right, John---Otto Klemperer's recordings are pretty contemporary with Szell's. My oversight.

And, in fact, only Klemperer's Fourth really does it for me, while Szell's First is HIS best of the cycle (IMHO).

Jack

[Lance]

Schumann has taken a lot of hits over the years, and especially more recently. Personally, I could not live without the music of Robert Schumann—(mostly his piano music), though I have always been attracted to his symphonic works as well, and especially the symphonies. No. 4 (which is not really No. 4, but only in the order of publication) is a particular favorite ... the one in D minor.

The Szell Columbia/Sony Classical performances have long been established as the paradigm and symphonic recorded sound and precision of orchestras doesn't get much better than the Cleveland Orchestra at that time, and under Szell's direction. Performance practices may have changed since that set was recorded, but Szell still makes a most indelible mark with his interpretations. It is always the Szell set I turn to first when I want to hear one of the four symphonies, or check on a fragment from one of them.

Two other sets, both by the same conductor, are also prized by collectors. The conductor is Rafael Kubelik. Two CDs were issued of all four symphonies on Sony Classical [48269, 48270] with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra - and the other appeared on Deutsche Grammophon [437.395, 2 CDs] with the Berlin Philharmonic. The Sony set was recorded c. 1979 and the DGG c. 1964. Both have been exquisitely remastered.

There have, of course, been many individual recordings of each symphony. For example, I have always coveted the one Erich Leinsdorf did with the Boston Symphony [RCA 60488, paired with Symphony No. 1 ("Spring") with Charles Munch conducting the Boston Symphony. The Fourth with Leinsdorf was an incredible, deeply rich reading, and I'm not usually a Leinsdorf fan, though recognize his great musical perceptions and musicality.

The choices are almost limitless for the four symphonies.

[Werner]

Does anyone know the cycle by Masur and the Gewandhaus Orchestra? I have the LPs on MHS - don't know if it's been published in CD.

[gfweis]

The Masur/Leipzig set is definitely out on cd. Coincidentally, I just saw it online yesterday, I believe on amazon. Slight chance it was on ebay.

Of the several Spring symphonies I've heard, the finest was Abendroth's with the Berlin Rundfunk (1955). I have it on a Tahra twofer, but I think it is or has been available on other labels as well. This is a very exciting performance, with lots of rubato and dynamic extremes, all of which work. He makes me love what I'm hearing right away. He just seems to get more out of the piece.

Second best? I'd say Sawallisch/Dresden (which is also the best overall set IMHO), compromised only by (at least on my old EMI cd) a cavernous acoustic with too much reverb. Superbly played by the Staatskapelle, and beautifully, one wants to say lovingly, inflected throughout. Then I'd say Szell and Kubelik/BPO in a tie. (Kubelik has a great 2 & 3, though). Then Klemp, then Goodman. I'm sorry I haven't heard the Vonk, which from snippets I've heard online sounds exceptionally good, nor the Bernstein/NYP, which somehow I imagine is pretty good. It seems reasonable to me to expect that Schumann and the earlier Lenny would have made a good marriage.

BTW, I wonder if anyone agrees with me that Schumann's inspiration flagged a bit in the larghetto of this symphony. It seems somewhat difficult to play the movement at a speed that works. It can easily seem to drag, but if one speeds it up, one risks bypassing what seems to be the right feeling. I think Abendroth addresses this problem better than anyone else.

Finally, I agree with Jack Kelso about the Klemperer 4th---a truly great performance, and the only one done with the "Philharmonia" rather than the "New Philharmonia" orchestra, i.e. the earliest one recorded of the four.

[Jack Kelso]

Well, now I guess I'd better lay down my favorite recordings of these symphonies:

No. 1: Sawallisch and Szell.

No. 2: Bernstein (N.Y.), Herreweghe, Levine.

No. 3: Karajan*, Giulini (L.A. Phil.), Thielemann.

No. 4: Klemperer, Muti, Müller-Kray (SWR Baden-Baden) (radio recording).

*He is almost the ONLY one who finds the right tempo for the "Feierlich" (4th mvt)---most everyone else takes it toooo fast). Overall the best. Also got exceptionally fine critique.

Unfortunately, during the coda of the 3rd ("Rhenish") Symphony, Bernstein caught a hornet under his conductorial arm and trashed the ending in lightning speed (with the N.Y Phil AND the Wiener Phil---what a coincidence! ).

And that was a shame, since he did the other movements pretty well.

Tschüß,
Jack

[Barry]

I have the Gardiner CD regarding the Symphonies 1 and 4. It is very clear, transparent, but I believe that Schumann Symphonies need to be a little more dense, like in Sawallisch. There is a deep emotion, even in the First, that Gardiner seems to forget.
Anyway, it is a very refreshing version.

I generally agree with that. Sawallisch's Dresden set is my favorite. I went through a period a year or two back when I was listening to these symphonies all the time, doing a lot of comparison listening too. Sawallisch still came out on top, but Bernstein/Vienna and Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle are also outstanding (Szell's set came out at the bottom for me). They are good at getting that big, blended sound that suits this music well IMO.

One exception is the Zinman set on Art Nova, which I'll put on occassionally for something successfully different.

While Sawallisch's is my favorite overall set, Furtwangler's fourth on DG may be my single favorite Schumann symphony recording.

[dirkronk]

Having had friends strongly recommend both Bernstein/NY and Szell/Cleveland early in my collecting days, I purchased both on vinyl and have never felt compelled to cull either set. In that format, Szell's is better sonically (something was unfortunately dim about Bernstein's recordings...or perhaps just the transfers on the set I have). Still, there are other individual recordings that I also love--by (yes) Klemperer, Furtwangler, Cantelli, even Fischer-Dieskau (!). I have Abendroth doing the 4th (think I'll drag it out and listen, since it's been brought to my attention by this thread), but haven't heard his 1st that gfweis mentions.

Oddly enough, the Schumann 2nd that I listen to rather often is a different Szell performance--one in mono, though also with Cleveland, that was released several years prior to his integral set.

About a decade or so back, someone brought a CD of Schumann's 2nd and 3rd symphonies into the hifi shop run by two good friends of mine. At the time, I was a hidebound flat-earther and wouldn't think of buying digital anything. In this case, though, I've been very sorry that I didn't keep the name of the conductor...simply because, while I still heard less-than-pleasant digital artifacts in the recording, I (grudgingly) had to admit that the performances were stunning. I THINK it was an EMI and it may have been Gardiner, but I just don't remember.

More recently, a friend gave me copies of Goodman and the Hanover Band doing all four symphonies. Have only done one run-through, and that was probably more than a year ago, but rather enjoyed them. Wonder how these compare with, say, Zinman? Anyone tried both?

Dirk

[Jack Kelso]

More recently, a friend gave me copies of Goodman and the Hanover Band doing all four symphonies. Have only done one run-through, and that was probably more than a year ago, but rather enjoyed them. Wonder how these compare with, say, Zinman? Anyone tried both?

Dirk

I wonder why the Zinman set is so popular. I'll take almost anyone else over this set. I can't understand anyone enjoying the Third ("Rhenish") in under 30 minutes any more than I could the Brahms Second performed in 35 minutes......

Jack