The most important concerts and symphonies from the classica

Arnstein
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The most important concerts and symphonies from the classica

Post by Arnstein » Tue Feb 06, 2007 5:04 pm

l era?

List 'em up people!
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piston
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Post by piston » Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:10 pm

All right, Arnstein, but first I've got to understand the parameters. Your post subject is about the "classical era" and your avatar of Shostakovich is clearly pointing to the "modern era." Would you clarify? Is this post about the most important concertos and symphonies between 1730 and 1820, grosso modo?
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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:31 pm

Welcome to the board! You have asked, as I am sure you are aware, a very basic question. The problem with such questions is that they eventually elicit every work in the genres mentioned that has any musical merit at all, as well as a few that don't. I learned that lesson long ago and then temporarily forgot it when I got exactly that result from a thread I started on violin concertos. So perhaps you could narrow things down a bit. :)

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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:04 am

I've always thought the classical era was between 1760 and 1820. I mean the concertos and symphonies that had the most influence to later classical work, and the concertos and symphonies that showed that a new era had begun, and that the baroque era was over.

My signature picture has nothing to do with the topic.
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walboi
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Post by walboi » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:27 am

Why the constant need to single out composers as the best or better.
You either like the music or not.
Better not put labels to every composers, in terms of quality.
There is not most important.
Music there is, but not to be divided by subjective opinions.

BWV 1080
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Post by BWV 1080 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:35 am

walboi wrote:Why the constant need to single out composers as the best or better.
You either like the music or not.
Better not put labels to every composers, in terms of quality.
There is not most important.
Music there is, but not to be divided by subjective opinions.
Actually, he asks a legitimate and answerable question. "The Best" classical period work(s) is unanswerable, but a collection of works that are the most important to later generations in terms of their influence is objectively answerable, albeit debatable.

Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:41 am

I don't want people to write what their favourite symphonies from the classical era is. I want them to write the symphonies and concerts that was the first signs of the classical era, and the symphonies that helped to take it a step further(like Haydns symphony number 94 - the first one with a trumpet). It seems impossible to get a good answer here.
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BWV 1080
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Post by BWV 1080 » Wed Feb 07, 2007 12:00 pm

I start that Mozart's 20th Piano Concerto was a major influence on Beethoven and you can hear traces of it in Beethoven's Piano Concertos and other works of his.

The String Quintet K515 also sounds Beethovenish to my ears, and it is the longest 1st movement Sonata form before the Eroica.

Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:30 pm

Yeah! Mozart also started composing stuff in two keys at one time, which was typical for the romantic era.
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piston
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Post by piston » Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:38 pm

Arnstein wrote:I don't want people to write what their favourite symphonies from the classical era is. I want them to write the symphonies and concerts that was the first signs of the classical era, and the symphonies that helped to take it a step further(like Haydns symphony number 94 - the first one with a trumpet). It seems impossible to get a good answer here.
I recommend this Wikipedia periodization. It has the merit of leaving room for a pretty substantial transition period between the Baroque and the Classical periods, pointing, for example, to Domenico Scarlatti as a transitional composer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_ ... 30-1760.29
Aren't Haydn's symphonies a perfect illustration of the reasons why there is no particular work heralding the Classical era? I tend to view his symphonies as a steady progression into a more developed and sophisticated classical music.
Welcome to the board and sorry that it took a while to figure out the core of the original question. :D
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Wed Feb 07, 2007 6:25 pm

What was the first symphony Haydn wrote where he used the standard symphony-form? That is one of the most important symphonies in the classical era!
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piston
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Post by piston » Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:27 pm

But, Arnstein, what is a "typical" sonata-form symphony? Is it this one:
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/m345/haydn_mili ... ny100.html
I sense that you are looking more for a confirmation than for a much more diversified transitional phenomenon.
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Post by RebLem » Wed Feb 07, 2007 11:51 pm

I am not sure Arnstein meant "best." Perhaps a better question would be, "In beginning to explore this period, what 10, 15, 20, 30 (pick a number) works should I start with?

Is that what you had in mind, Arnstein?
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:04 am

No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically? What was the first signs of the classical era? What added new instruments? etc.

Yes, Piston, that is the typical symphony-form. Haydn used that for all of his later symphonies, I just don't know when he started using that form.
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Post by bricon » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:20 am

It’s impossible to talk in absolute terms about the “most important concert and symphonies” of any particular era. I doubt that there was a seismic shift between the baroque and classical eras – it seemed to be more of a gradual progression. I think that the transition between the classical and romantic eras is more pronounced – “classical” music was never the same after Beethoven’s 3rd symphony.

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Post by RebLem » Thu Feb 08, 2007 4:07 am

If I had to pick one set of works, it would not be concerti or symphonies, but string quartets. The first modern string quartets were Haydn's 6 Opus 20 Quartets. Haydn developed the form of the modern string quartet and the modern symphony; Mozart, the piano concerto. And, then, too, there are some cello concerti by C.P.E. Bach that are of some importance.
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:33 am

RebLem: good to see that some people answer to the topic, instead of arguing about bull crap. I thought the people here were grown ups!

Haydn did develop the form for the modern symphony and string quartet. Do you know when this form was first used?
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BWV 1080
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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:08 am

Arnstein wrote:RebLem: good to see that some people answer to the topic, instead of arguing about mistaken ideas. I thought the people here were grown ups!

Haydn did develop the form for the modern symphony and string quartet. Do you know when this form was first used?
The four movement symphony comes from the Mannheim School. Haydn's are the earliest works that are commonly played, but he did not invent the form.

GM Monn's symphony in D major (1740) is a remarkable composition in the history of the symphony. The movements are Allegro, Aria, Minuet, Allegro all in the same key. The winds are used independently
http://www.dorak.info/music/symphony.html

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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:12 am

Arnstein wrote:No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically?
It depends enturely on how one defines importance here.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:21 am

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically?
It depends enturely on how one defines importance here.

Cheers,
~Karl
Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:23 am

BWV 1080 wrote:
Arnstein wrote:RebLem: good to see that some people answer to the topic, instead of arguing about mistaken ideas. I thought the people here were grown ups!

Haydn did develop the form for the modern symphony and string quartet. Do you know when this form was first used?
The four movement symphony comes from the Mannheim School. Haydn's are the earliest works that are commonly played, but he did not invent the form.

GM Monn's symphony in D major (1740) is a remarkable composition in the history of the symphony. The movements are Allegro, Aria, Minuet, Allegro all in the same key. The winds are used independently
http://www.dorak.info/music/symphony.html
Thanks, I didn't know this! I thought that Haydn was trying out different forms, and then he found one that he wanted to go with. Thanks for the info!
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:46 am

Arnstein wrote:Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
The standard in what way?

Only one standard? Why, or why not?

What's "a step further," and why?

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:54 am

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
The standard in what way?

Only one standard? Why, or why not?

What's "a step further," and why?

Cheers,
~Karl
I give up. You're an ass :wink:
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:13 am

Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:19 am

karlhenning wrote:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.
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walboi
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Post by walboi » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:52 am

Arnstein wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.
You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.

Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 11:56 am

walboi wrote:
Arnstein wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.
You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.
I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.

Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.
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walboi
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Post by walboi » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:02 pm

Arnstein wrote:
walboi wrote:
Arnstein wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.
You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.
I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.

Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.

You are such a rash person and have yet to learn a lot in life.
You behave like a drill sergeant my boy!

Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:07 pm

walboi wrote:
Arnstein wrote:
walboi wrote:
Arnstein wrote:
karlhenning wrote:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.
You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.
I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.

Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.

You are such a rash person and have yet to learn a lot in life.
You behave like a drill sergeant my boy!
So did the third son of the second mother, but he still ate breakfast.
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:32 pm

Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.
Well, you mustn't let that deprive you of your cool, Arnstein.

But the fact is, I gave you a good answer: the notion of relative importance of artworks is not an easy matter of a few bullet-points.

You're calling anyone an ass over it, does not speak well of you. But I do not hold it against you.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:34 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.
Well, you mustn't let that deprive you of your cool, Arnstein.

But the fact is, I gave you a good answer: the notion of relative importance of artworks is not an easy matter of a few bullet-points.

You're calling anyone an ass over it, does not speak well of you. But I do not hold it against you.

Cheers,
~Karl
You were more interested in trying not to understand what I meant, than to try to understand it. I don't need this, I'm the genius here. :wink:
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 12:39 pm

Arnstein wrote:You were more interested in trying not to understand what I meant, than to try to understand it.
No, it is I who must be the judge of what I am interested in, or more interested in.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
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http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:56 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically?
It depends enturely on how one defines importance here.

Cheers,
~Karl
karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
The standard in what way?

Only one standard? Why, or why not?

What's "a step further," and why?

Cheers,
~Karl
....

I hope I get all my posts and account deleted soon. It is a good thing; from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing, instead of wasting time on a forum where people want to argue about excrement instead of having interesting discussions about classical music. Maybe you should do the same Karl? 2300posts? ouch! :wink:
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Post by Werner » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:15 pm

Arnstein, I wonder whether you came on to this board to pick fights or to say anything of value.

I certainly see nothing of value in anything you've said to date, except to argue with people who have contributed more than you have to date.

So as of now, if you withdraw all your posts, I won't object.
Werner Isler

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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:17 pm

Arnstein wrote:Maybe you should do the same Karl?
For my part, Arnstein, I apologize for misspelling entirely.

Cheers,
~Karl
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:19 pm

Arnstein wrote:from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing
What are you composing now, Arnstein?

Cheers,
~Karl
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Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:47 pm

Werner wrote:Arnstein, I wonder whether you came on to this board to pick fights or to say anything of value.

I tried to make an interesting discussion. So much for trying...
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 2:48 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing
What are you composing now, Arnstein?

Cheers,
~Karl
A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:01 pm

Arnstein wrote:A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.
New notation system with all three pieces, or just (say) the piano work? Have you worked much with players whom you've asked to learn unconventional notation? (OTOH, you're a pianist yourself, right?)

How many movements for the quartet and the symphony? What makeup of the orchestra for the latter?

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:10 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.
New notation system with all three pieces, or just (say) the piano work? Have you worked much with players whom you've asked to learn unconventional notation?

How many movements for the quartet and the symphony? What makeup of the orchestra for the latter?

Cheers,
~Karl
The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.

4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses

I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:17 pm

Arnstein wrote:The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.

4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses

I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
Very interesting. Do you really want an alto trombone, or will the player simply use the standard tenor? I don't think I've ever seen an alto trombone, but my not having seen one is certainly inconclusive :-)

The contrabassoon is a great instrument; one number in my ballet is an invention for two bassoons and contrabassoon, with occasional commentary from the harp.

Have you written anything for clarinet solo?

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:25 pm

karlhenning wrote:
Arnstein wrote:The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.

4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses

I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
Very interesting. Do you really want an alto trombone, or will the player simply use the standard tenor? I don't think I've ever seen an alto trombone, but my not having seen one is certainly inconclusive :-)

The contrabassoon is a great instrument; one number in my ballet is an invention for two bassoons and contrabassoon, with occasional commentary from the harp.

Have you written anything for clarinet solo?

Cheers,
~Karl
I want an alto trombone. I have spoken to a guy who had one.

Yes, the contrabassoon is great.

I haven't written anything for clarinet solo as I'm not really too fond of that instrument. But maybe I will try one day? Several years ago, when I played stand-in(is that the right words?) piano for a jazz-band it was an amazing clarinetist there though, and he played solo, but that was improvisation, and I really had nothing to do with it.
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karlhenning
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Post by karlhenning » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:30 pm

We've veered from the topic, so I started a new thread here.

Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:43 pm

OK, now answer the topic anyone.
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Arnstein
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Post by Arnstein » Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:33 pm

To answer my own question:

I think that Mozarts clarinettconcerto and Haydns trumpetconcerto are very important, as they both are soloconcerti for instruments that was new in the classical era.
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bricon
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Post by bricon » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:29 pm

Arnstein wrote:To answer my own question:

I think that Mozarts clarinettconcerto and Haydns trumpetconcerto are very important, as they both are soloconcerti for instruments that was new in the classical era.
Trumpet concerti (and similar pieces, like sonatas) were hugely popular in the Baroque period – there were thousands of the things written by composers like, Vivaldi. Corelli, Albinoni, Torelli, Marcello, Telemann, etc, etc; which all pre-date the classical era.

The clarinet developed from an instrument known as the chalumeau, the instrument didn’t develop into what we would now identify as a clarinet until the mid 18th century, so specific works for clarinet can only occur in the classical era or later. Nonetheless, concerti for woodwind instruments and orchestra were very popular in the baroque period; many of the composers previously mentioned in this post wrote such works for, oboe, bassoon and flute.

The concerto for solo, brass or woodwind instrument and orchestra was not a development of the classical era.

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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:30 pm

Arnstein wrote:To answer my own question:

I think that Mozarts clarinettconcerto and Haydns trumpetconcerto are very important, as they both are soloconcerti for instruments that was new in the classical era.
There are a whole slew of baroque trumpet concertos

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:33 pm

The sonatas, symphonies and concertos of C.P.E. Bach may have had some influence in the transition from Baroque to Classical form.

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Post by BWV 1080 » Thu Feb 08, 2007 8:11 pm

Brendan wrote:The sonatas, symphonies and concertos of C.P.E. Bach may have had some influence in the transition from Baroque to Classical form.
Yes, CPE was a leading figure along with Stamitz and the other Mannheim composers

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Post by Arnstein » Fri Feb 09, 2007 1:59 am

Yes, but in the classical era the trumpet got (I'm not sure if it's the right word) leafs/ventils.
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