Melanie phillips/londonistan, wake up call or hyperbole?

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paulb
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Melanie phillips/londonistan, wake up call or hyperbole?

Post by paulb » Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:40 pm

I've not read her 200 page book, its on order, but did see her today on CSPAN's offering of her speaking at a Washington location promoting her new book, Londonisatn. Which deals with the workings of Al Queda in London and europe. Maybe some of you are aware of the book. Basically she tells us that britian did not take sufficient steps in dealing with the islamic radicals there in england, post 9/11. And that the US should take those britian bomobings as a wake up call. As if 9/11 was not enough.
So some are calling phillips "XENOPHOBE! FILTH!" and "RACIST!!" " A book of lies and fairy tales!" So say a few amazon reviewers and I can only image how many others are screaming such platitudes. I know I've met some on another forum site (a classical one it was). So if the US has a significant muslim population, and growing daily, how are we to deal with radicals that are able to hide among the peaceful muslims? How can we seek them out before they plan an attack, w/o the US being cited for religious intolerance, racism, witch hunting?
If it is true that al queda does have members here, shouldn't we take necessary steps to seek them out w/o the public going beserk that we are spying on possible extremeists? "how dare you, this profiling must stop, the individual's rights must be protected, no matter what the circumstances" 'profiling is wrong"
I assure you if an attack does take place i will be perplexed and in dismay that the muslim community did not do its part in helping by uncovering such plots. How many muslims are in this country that WOULD NOT REPORT such a plot?
Thoughts?

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Re: Melanie phillips/londonistan, wake up call or hyperbole?

Post by Corlyss_D » Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:38 pm

paulb wrote:Maybe some of you are aware of the book. Basically she tells us that britian did not take sufficient steps in dealing with the islamic radicals there in england, post 9/11. And that the US should take those britian bomobings as a wake up call. As if 9/11 was not enough.
So some are calling phillips "XENOPHOBE! FILTH!" and "RACIST!!" " A book of lies and fairy tales!" So say a few amazon reviewers and I can only image how many others are screaming such platitudes.
It's the typical reaction of the head-in-the-sand left on both sides of the pond. Folks who think this whole issue is a matter of opinion and "diversity" should rule our behavior are whistling past the graveyard (Batchelor has a harsher image for it). I think Bachelor has interviewed her on his program. I missed it, and his review is pending, but he has a couple of images up with the book:

Image

If you can get ahold of the June issue of Commentary, there's a great article in there on America and the America Haters by Daniel Johnson on the very excellent statistical work done by Andy Kohut of the Pew Research Foundation for People and the Press. His statistics appear to be better than his recommendations for fixing the problem, assuming there is a problem, which consist mostly of exhortations to change our ways and abase ourselves before the public opinion of Europe and the Islamic world. It provides an exquisite insight into the thinking of Europeans and Democratic strategists for how to meet the Islamic threat.
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Post by jack stowaway » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:58 am

Three remedies:

1) Western countries should reject the myth of multiculturalism and recognise it for what it is: an anti-western ideology promulgated by professional ethnics and self-hating liberals.

2) Western governments should restructure their immigration policies to permit entry only to applicants with values compatible with Western ones. Only people demonstrably willing and able to assimilate into Western societies should be granted visas. In other words, no entry for semi-literate Islamic peasants from the Punjab or sub-Saharan Africa.

3) Western intellectuals need to wake up to the fact that the problem is not radical or fringe interpretations of Islam but Islam itself. Until Islam undegoes a reformation, it will remain a breeding ground for terrorists and hate-spouting ideologues.

The following article is from a Canadian newspaper....

June 18, 2006

Divided loyalties
Sociology prof warns multiculturalism 'creates nations within a nation'
By Licia Corbella

Dr. Mahfooz Kanwar recently attended Calgary's largest mosque for a funeral.

At one point in the proceedings, a man Kanwar has known for more than three decades led the prayers.

"He was saying in Urdu (the official language of Pakistan): 'Oh, God, protect us from the infidels, who pollute us with their vile ways,'" recalls Kanwar, a professor of sociology at Mount Royal College in Calgary.

"I stood up and grabbed him by the lapels, which was shocking even to me because I have never done anything like that in my life and I said: 'How dare you attack my country.' And then I addressed the crowd and said: 'I have known this man for more than 30 years and he has been on welfare for almost all of those years.' "

Kanwar chuckles at the memory.

"Then I said to this semi-literate man, 'you should thank me and those you call infidels.'

"He asked me why and I said: 'Because the taxes I pay are putting food on your table as are the taxes of the so-called "infidels.' "

Most Canadians and many Muslims would applaud Dr. Kanwar's righteous outburst. But guess which of the two men is no longer welcome at the Sarcee Tr. S.W. mosque?

Not the intolerant, hate-spewing semi-literate. No, it's Dr. Kanwar who's persona non grata.

That, says Kanwar, is just one of numerous instances he has experienced as a result of the culture of ignorance and intolerance that permeates so many mosques in Canada and throughout the world.

In light of the arrests two weeks ago of 17 young Muslim Canadian men who are alleged to have planned terrorist attacks against their fellow Canadians that included attacking Parliament, seizing the CBC and beheading the prime minister, Kanwar says it's vitally important for Canadians to start making more demands of those who immigrate to this country.

Kanwar says we now know one of the 17 accused was allowed to spew hatred and calls to violent jihad at a Toronto-area mosque and he was never once told by the leadership there to stop.

Six of the young men who listened to him are also charged in the plot.

Kanwar is pretty certain, if he spoke up at that mosque, however, with his message that Canada's culture is better than the culture found in any Islamic-based country, he'd be kicked out.

"The policy of official multiculturalism is a disaster," says Kanwar, who ironically once headed a government-funded multicultural organization in Calgary in the early '70s.

Every year, Kanwar's organization would host a large food and crafts festival in the basement of the Jubilee Auditorium.

"There were 52 tables, each with two flags on them -- Polish and Canadian, Ukrainian and Canadian etc. When the Alberta minister in charge of funding the festival showed up, I asked him, 'why is there not even one table here with a single flag -- why is there no Canadian table?'"

Kanwar has been questioning the government-funded official multicultural model ever since -- most recently through his 2002 book: Journey to Success, which is used as a sociology textbook at Mount Royal College and other post-secondary institutions.

"Multiculturalism creates nations within a nation and divides the loyalty of people," says the 65-year-old Pakastani-born Kanwar, who immigrated to Canada in 1966.

"It allows people to marginalize themselves. It endangers us all as these recent arrests show."

Because of Kanwar's open and published opposition to Ontario's proposal last year to consider allowing sharia law for arbitration purposes in that province, Kanwar says he has been issued with fatwahs -- not the death-threat versions made famous by the one issued against Salman Rushdie for writing the novel The Satanic Verses -- but more like a shunning.

Kanwar, a devout Muslim, says he has essentially been excommunicated by Calgary's mosques because he is too tolerant of others.

Homa Arjomand, who lives in Toronto and headed Canada's successful campaign of the International Campaign Against Sharia Court in Canada (www.nosharia.com), says like Kanwar, she too once embraced the idea of multiculturalism.

Arjomand, who calls herself a "victim" of sharia law -- a strict set of rules based on Islam's holy book, the Qur'an, that subjugates women, as well as allows for the chopping off of hands for theft etc. -- says part of the reason she decided to immigrate to Canada was because she had heard about official multiculturalism.

"I thought how wonderful, but not anymore," she declares.

"I came here for Canadian values, not sharia values. I fled Iran on horseback because the values there threatened my very life. If people want to live under sharia or the way they lived back home, let them go back," she said.

Kanwar agrees. He says the time has come for the Canadian government to tell new immigrants "once you're in Canada we expect you to be totally devoted to Canada -- no divided loyalties."

"This country," added Kanwar, "is a democracy and democracy is founded on Christian principles.

"Canada is -- like it or not, take it or leave it -- a country founded on Christian principles where the vast majority of citizens are Christians," said Kanwar.

"Yes, there's separation of church and state but even that was a principle founded by Christians and Christianity.

"If Muslims, or anyone else, doesn't like living in a land filled with Christians or in a democracy they should get the hell out."

Fugu

Post by Fugu » Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:20 am

The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:09 pm

Fugu wrote:you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture.
You know better than that, Dan. The myth of multiculturalism is that all cultures are equal. They most certainly aren't or people stay where they are and they wouldn't flock to the West and particularly to the United States. To pretend that Sudan's culture is equivalent to India's is equivalent to England's is to set oneself up for precisely the kind of spurious sociology you liberals embrace to the detriment of the rest of us. Your sociology is phony as all that feigned concern for the poor downtrodden masses everywhere.
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Fugu

Post by Fugu » Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:18 pm

Well, Corlyss, when it comes to phony we all bow to you, the greatest phony here.

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Post by paulb » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:01 am

Fugu wrote:Well, Corlyss, when it comes to phony we all bow to you, the greatest phony here.
Somehow I read your pert comment as comming up short...in reply to Corlyss' more rounded and thought provoking posting.
I must give his post some thought. There;s is something there I'm missing, but know it's importance.
Corlyss are you saying if all cultures felt that each is equal to the other, then why are so many foreigners so desparate to get into this country , and to obtain that highly valued green card? Yes?
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:30 am

Fugu wrote:Well, Corlyss, when it comes to phony we all bow to you, the greatest phony here.
Where's the wounded emoticon? :roll: You cut me to the quick, Dan.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:39 am

paulb wrote:
Fugu wrote:Well, Corlyss, when it comes to phony we all bow to you, the greatest phony here.
Somehow I read your pert comment as comming up short...in reply to Corlyss' more rounded and thought provoking posting.
Don't blame Dan. He's so busy swallowing the Democratic kool aid and talking points that he doesn't have time for more than disappointing one liners.
Corlyss are you saying if all cultures felt that each is equal to the other, then why are so many foreigners so desparate to get into this country , and to obtain that highly valued green card? Yes?
That's exactly right, Paul. We aren't trying to get into Sudan or Ethiopia, or Kyrgyzstan, or Russia, or Viet Nam, or China. They are trying to get here. I can't think of any fact that explodes that multicultural baloney more thoroughly than that. In the early days after 9/11, when everyone was reporting from the Islamic street how hated we were, the head of one of the Arab-Western organizations commented that no matter what the Arab street said, what they wanted most in the world was airfare to the US and a green card.

We don't mind 'em coming to the West or to the US; we mind their trying to transplant the very conditions that caused them to leave home in the first place. Coming to the West, and particularly to America, is an act of metamorphosis: if they wanted to be who they were, they would stay where they are. The fact that they come here means they want to be something or someone else. Many who migrate to the West desperately want to assimilate, if they are allowed to. America's history is rich evidence that most immigrants understand exactly why they left the old country, they don't want to become ghettoized, and they want to become Americans in the fullest sense of the word. Activist organizations, like the many that infest the Latino communities, especially in California as opposed to Texas, want to keep the Latinos as a wholly separate and distinct culture within the US, i.e., balkanizing and ghettoizing, a policy that has worked so well in France and England.
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Brendan

Post by Brendan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:04 am

Diversity within a culture is not the same thing as multiple cultures occupying the same geography - which historically has always meant population scale warfare, sooner or later.


When Garry Wills claims that the “concept of a serene core of cultural values at the center of Western civilization is entirely false” (New York Times magazine [February 16, 1997], p40), he simplifies and misrepresents the debate. (Has any contemporary scholar claimed the core was “serene”?) Mr. Wills is unaware that everything he now takes for granted in his own life—his freedom, his ability to question, provoke and censure, his education, his material bounty, his safety and security, everything from his computer to his degree to his library—derive from a core of Western values that are quite different from other cultures and that began with the Greeks. Certainly the Classical worlds have been variously interpreted by different cultures at different times through the last two millennia, but to conclude from this comforting bromide that there was no real “core” to Greek culture itself, a set of values accessible even now to readers of Greek and of importance to all of us today, is simply a lazy nod to postmodern hypocrisy.

Hanson, Victor Davis and Heath, John – Who Killed Homer? [Encounter p158-159]

Other cultures simply did not develop democracy, nation states, constitutional law, scientific philosophy (no, Islam and China did not develop modern scientific method even if they had superior technology until the middle ages), notions of freedom, equality and trail by jury, classical music etc etc. That we've decided to throw all that away, or forget the lessons of classical history, is regretable to some of us.

The symptoms of anarchy are first visible in education, for according to Plato’s aetiology, it is in educational disorganization that it originates. The paideia of false equality results in strange unnatural situations. Fathers try to behave like children, and become afraid of their sons; while the sons behave as if they were grown up, and stop respecting their parents and behaving properly, so as to feel quite free. Foreigners and resident aliens behave as if they were citizens, and citizens as if they were foreigners. Teachers are afraid of their pupils, and flatter them, while the pupils despise their teachers. In general, young men copy their elders, and older men try to look young, smart and amusing: anything to avoid being thought unpleasant and tyrannous.
Jaeger, Werner – Paideia – The Ideals of Greek Culture Volume II [Oxford 1943, 1971 p323]

Fugu

Post by Fugu » Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:48 am

Corlyss_D wrote:
paulb wrote:
Fugu wrote:Well, Corlyss, when it comes to phony we all bow to you, the greatest phony here.
Somehow I read your pert comment as comming up short...in reply to Corlyss' more rounded and thought provoking posting.
Don't blame Dan. He's so busy swallowing the Democratic kool aid and talking points that he doesn't have time for more than disappointing one liners.
Corlyss are you saying if all cultures felt that each is equal to the other, then why are so many foreigners so desparate to get into this country , and to obtain that highly valued green card? Yes?
That's exactly right, Paul. We aren't trying to get into Sudan or Ethiopia, or Kyrgyzstan, or Russia, or Viet Nam, or China. They are trying to get here. I can't think of any fact that explodes that multicultural baloney more thoroughly than that. In the early days after 9/11, when everyone was reporting from the Islamic street how hated we were, the head of one of the Arab-Western organizations commented that no matter what the Arab street said, what they wanted most in the world was airfare to the US and a green card.

We don't mind 'em coming to the West or to the US; we mind their trying to transplant the very conditions that caused them to leave home in the first place. Coming to the West, and particularly to America, is an act of metamorphosis: if they wanted to be who they were, they would stay where they are. The fact that they come here means they want to be something or someone else. Many who migrate to the West desperately want to assimilate, if they are allowed to. America's history is rich evidence that most immigrants understand exactly why they left the old country, they don't want to become ghettoized, and they want to become Americans in the fullest sense of the word. Activist organizations, like the many that infest the Latino communities, especially in California as opposed to Texas, want to keep the Latinos as a wholly separate and distinct culture within the US, i.e., balkanizing and ghettoizing, a policy that has worked so well in France and England.
What a bunch of horse manure. The fact that people migrate here isn't because they want to become Americans but because of the fact they want a life that includes the ability to fund and provide a better life for their family. That doesn't mean they want to obliterate their own culture, language, or traditions. However, as is so obvious from the right-wing (Corlyss and her buddies pizza, et al.), the enforced belief that everyone must be like them is clear when it comes to immigration policy.

As for phony, Corlyss, you make a to do about being a Mormon and then go off on a foul-mouthed tirade with "F" bombs in many of your posts. You claim superior knowledge but only give us what is clearly Ann Coulter type mentality.

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Post by paulb » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:55 am

Look at Miami. The latinos from all parts of south and central america have established themselves as one in diversity. They basically accept each others nationality, but the cubans obviously have the upper hand, jobs, perks, "open doors".
Here in New Orleans it was a Honduran community that made a place here, and all were hard working law abiding citizens. But if a guatemalan came along, he did not the warmest of welcome. See back in CA those 2 countries citizens really don't think much of each other, and carry that prejudice here when the come. So even here sub-cultures can often be divided. amongst themselves.
In fact the sub-culture can be hardest towrds each other. Look at the black population in New Orleans. If a black american from one part of the city, stayed too long in one section, "do your business and get out',, then they killed him if he had no business being there in the first place. The drug wars and harem-protecting wars got real ugly just before Katrina hit.
Hopefully things will calm down between "the hoods" and New Orleans can begin to rebuild a city dedicated towards peace , law abiding citizens, no matter the color or culture.
New Orlaens has the chance to be the first city to be a truly unified city where hispanics, black and white americans come together in unity and brotherhood.
So we as a country are not ready to take on the challenge of a few islamics who want to push their brand of One World Islam onto us, especially when they act with merciless violence.
Honestly I do not feel comfortable with some islamics here in this country. But they are here already and not much we can do.
I am for spying, and eavesdropping, and other forms of infiltration. Only on selected muslims though, as 99%(most likely 99.9% are cool) are here in the US for reasons as Corlyss describes. For a life of peace and fulfillment which they could not obtain in their countries.
They have a right to move about freely and we also reserve the right to protect ourselves.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:32 pm

Fugu wrote: What a bunch of horse manure. The fact that people migrate here isn't because they want to become Americans but because of the fact they want a life that includes the ability to fund and provide a better life for their family. That doesn't mean they want to obliterate their own culture, language, or traditions. However, as is so obvious from the right-wing (Corlyss and her buddies pizza, et al.), the enforced belief that everyone must be like them is clear when it comes to immigration policy.

As for phony, Corlyss, you make a to do about being a Mormon and then go off on a foul-mouthed tirade with "F" bombs in many of your posts. You claim superior knowledge but only give us what is clearly Ann Coulter type mentality.
Well, you can speak in more than one sentence a post. Alas, the content hasn't improved.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:47 pm

paulb wrote:Look at Miami. The latinos from all parts of south and central america have established themselves as one in diversity.
I ain't buyin' it for a second, Paul. There's the Cubans, then there's everybody else.
The drug wars and harem-protecting wars got real ugly just before Katrina hit.
Yes, things've gotten much better with 58 people killed since 1 Jan. That's why the mayor, hopeless twit that he is, finally broke down and asked for the National Guard. All those phantom cops on the payroll couldn't do anything about the real killings.
Honestly I do not feel comfortable with some islamics here in this country.
If they assimilate, I don't have a problem with them. In fact on 9/12 I suggested to my bishop that we offer our Muslim neighbors help if they were set upon by people seeking revenge against the innocent. There was a mosque not far from where I lived. I did then and do now believe that most Muslims in America are peaceful good neighbors happy to be here and fully desireous of becoming American citizens.
They have a right to move about freely and we also reserve the right to protect ourselves.
Everyman speaks. I think your pithy statement sums up the attitude of most Americans nicely.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:58 pm

Brendan wrote:Diversity within a culture is not the same thing as multiple cultures occupying the same geography - which historically has always meant population scale warfare, sooner or later.


When Garry Wills claims that the “concept of a serene core of cultural values at the center of Western civilization is entirely false” (New York Times magazine [February 16, 1997], p40), he simplifies and misrepresents the debate. (Has any contemporary scholar claimed the core was “serene”?) Mr. Wills is unaware that everything he now takes for granted in his own life—his freedom, his ability to question, provoke and censure, his education, his material bounty, his safety and security, everything from his computer to his degree to his library—derive from a core of Western values that are quite different from other cultures and that began with the Greeks. Certainly the Classical worlds have been variously interpreted by different cultures at different times through the last two millennia, but to conclude from this comforting bromide that there was no real “core” to Greek culture itself, a set of values accessible even now to readers of Greek and of importance to all of us today, is simply a lazy nod to postmodern hypocrisy.

Hanson, Victor Davis and Heath, John – Who Killed Homer? [Encounter p158-159]
This realization hasn't yet dawned on the European and American left. They remind me of Edward Teller's comment about how long it would take us to recover from a Soviet nuclear strike. He estimated it would take a mere 5 years, because of the power of the American economy and it's rate of growth. He completely neglected the fact that much of the American economic infrastructure would be disrupted or destroyed by the strike. The left thinks they are trading one despot for another, so there wouldn't be much difference, except that one despot is a product of their deranged minds, i.e., it's a pathology, while the real despot will kill them in a heartbeat absent their complete submission to its authority. They think they will be able to continue to assail the regime with the kind of impunity they enjoy now. They are, essentially, delusional.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DavidRoss » Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:27 pm

Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
Despite having been around awhile and having seen a few amazing things, I'm still surprised whenever someone who's so convinced of his moral superiority makes such glaringly hypocitical statements that betray the loathsome bigotry and innate nastiness of his true nature.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

Image

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:58 pm

With confident, traditional values comes strength
A Western tendency to ignore the obvious, for fear of being called Islamophobic, is backfiring, says Janet Albrechtsen
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/st ... 22,00.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

June 21, 2006
THE war on Western values continues apace from within the West. Exhibit one: more than two weeks ago Canadian police arrested 17 people, all adherents of al-Qa'ida's terrorist ideology, who had formed a home-grown terrorist cell. They rigged up mobile phones to remote detonators and stockpiled three tonnes of ammonium nitrate. To put the foiled terrorist attack in context, Mike McDonell, from the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, said the 1995 bombing in Oklahoma City that killed 168 people was done with one tonne of the same fertiliser.
Exhibit two: in a news report that sounded as if it were an opinion piece, The Sydney Morning Herald's Toronto reporter Richard Reynolds scoffed at Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper for "repeating the cliched response of Western leaders". Harper had said that Canada was a terrorist target because of "who we are and how we live, our society, our diversity and our values. Values such as freedom, democracy and the rule of law."

Perhaps talking about traditional values is rather trite in the eyes of that reporter, but elsewhere it's enjoying a resurgence.

Canadians have little choice. The Spanish option is not open to them. Canadians cannot blame Iraq and pull out their soldiers because, alas, they were never in Iraq. Instead, Canadians are on the front foot talking about values.

Others, too, are finally working out that rebuilding Western confidence is the clincher in confronting an ideology aimed at destroying the West. Earlier this year, British Chancellor Gordon Brown suggested the idea of a new British Day: a day for Britons to celebrate what it means to be British. A poll by the BBC History Magazine of more than 5000 people picked June 15, the anniversary of Magna Carta, as the best way to celebrate being British. Some Scots are cranky about the choice, given that Magna Carta was an English moment, between King John and robber barons in 1215. But whatever the final choice for British Day, it has kicked off a useful debate about rebuilding national identity.

For too long, the multicultural mind-set has acted like a two-pronged censor. It forbids talk that applauds the majority culture. And it's an even more potent censor when it comes to criticising minorities. Both are out of bounds according to these Two Commandments of Multiculturalism. By talking up Western values, Canadians chose to ignore the first commandment.

But they were tripped up on the second one. In a press briefing following the arrests, the Canadian police described the terrorist suspects as coming from a "broad strata" of society.

Ah, yes, a "veritable Benetton ad", joked blogger Michelle Malkin after she listed the 12 adult suspects: Fahim Ahmad, 21; Zakaria Amara, 20; Asad Ansari, 21; Shareef Abdelhaleen, 30; Qayyum Abdul Jamal, 43; Mohammed Dirie, 22; Yasim Abdi Mohamed, 24; Jahmaal James, 23; Amin Mohamed Durrani, 19; Steven Vikash Chand (also known as Abdul Shakur), 25; Ahmad Mustafa Ghany, 21; and Saad Khalid, 19.

This Western tendency to ignore the obvious, for fear of being labelled an Islamophobe, is becoming dangerous. In Britain, Brown seems to be banging on about British values and identity to make amends for much going awry on the multicultural front under the Blair Government's watch.

What went wrong? In short, London became Londonistan. In her new book of that name, Daily Mail columnist Melanie Phillips exposes how the decline of British identity and the collapse of Western values facilitated the emergence of fanatical Islamism that culminated in the London terrorist attacks last June.

Indoctrinated by the secular faith of multiculturalism, the British ignored the warning signs. Phillips points to the reaction to Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses in 1988 as "the point at which British Muslims became politicised and hitched their faith to a violent star". The fatwa may have emanated from Iran's Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini but the damage was wrought back home by those in Britain.

"There was," Phillips says, "the murderous incitement; the flagrant defiance of both the rule of law and free speech; the religious fanaticism; the emergence of British Muslims as a distinct and hostile political entity; and the supine response by the British establishment."

Fast forward to 2006 and London has become the hub of Islamist extremism. The facts underpinning Londonistan are frightening. Of the more than 1.6 million Muslims in Britain, the overwhelming majority are peaceful, law-abiding citizens.

But, according to a Home Office survey, 26 per cent of British Muslims feel no loyalty to Britain, 13 per cent support terrorism and about 1per cent (20,000) are actively engaged in terrorism or support it. Other figures point to 3000 individuals who have passed through al-Qai'da training camps.

Terrorism feeds on weakness, Phillips says. An emasculated Britain embraced would-be terrorists in the name of tolerance and ignorance. London became the place for radical imams such as Abu Qatada, Omar Bakri Mohammed, Abu Hamza al-Masri and Mohammed al-Massari to preach incitement to violence, raise money and recruit members for jihad. Her book traces how British-based terrorists carried out attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Kenya, Tanzania, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Morocco, Russia, Spain and the US. Even after the 9/11 attacks in the US, Britain was not shaken from its multicultural reverie.

In an interview with National Review, Phillips says the British political and security establishment "turned a blind eye and a deaf ear" to a network of radical Islamists preaching hatred and plotting jihad because they wrongly believed that if Britain did not bother the Islamists, the Islamists would not bother Britain. That theory imploded last June when four young British Muslims set off from Luton to detonate bomb blasts in London.

Even more startling is the wacky alliance between the Left and Islamist fanatics. Following the publication of her book, Phillips described the topsy-turvy sight of members of the Left, with an agenda of gay rights, equality for women and sexual liberty, marching shoulder to shoulder on London streets with radical Islamists who preach death to gays, the subjugation of women and the stoning of adulterers.

Londonistan has been described as compelling, powerful and groundbreaking, yet Phillips struggled to find a British publisher, such is the adherence to the Two Commandments by the literary establishment. That her book has also been labelled brave for pointing out the bleeding obvious tells you something about the power of that multicultural zeitgeist.

Phillips documents what has gone wrong and advocates how we may start to make things right. She concludes that "a nation can fight to defend itself only if it knows what it is fighting for, if it is secure in its own values". Leftist media types may sneer at that as yet another cliche. But given the dismal and dangerous failure of the Left's preference for multicultural moral relativism, it's worth a shot.

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Post by Barry » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:16 pm

jack stowaway wrote:3) Western intellectuals need to wake up to the fact that the problem is not radical or fringe interpretations of Islam but Islam itself. Until Islam undegoes a reformation, it will remain a breeding ground for terrorists and hate-spouting ideologues.
In "Clash of Civilizations," Huntington has solid figures (as of the mid ninetimes, when the book was written) as to the inordinately high number of wars between bordering countries with different cultures that involve an Islamic country and also the extremely high percentage of times that Islamic countries resort to violence to solve international crises or tensions as compared to countries with other dominant cultures. It's a MUCH higher percentage than the U.S. has, yet you'd think the reverse is true if you listen to the European, and, increasingly, the American left.
Last edited by Barry on Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by paulb » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:36 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
Despite having been around awhile and having seen a few amazing things, I'm still surprised whenever someone who's so convinced of his moral superiority makes such glaringly hypocitical statements that betray the loathsome bigotry and innate nastiness of his true nature.
I believe the lazer guided missle has found its target.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by paulb » Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:51 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
paulb wrote:Look at Miami. The latinos from all parts of south and central america have established themselves as one in diversity.
I ain't buyin' it for a second, Paul. There's the Cubans, then there's everybody else.
The drug wars and harem-protecting wars got real ugly just before Katrina hit.
Yes, things've gotten much better with 58 people killed since 1 Jan. That's why the mayor, hopeless twit that he is, finally broke down and asked for the National Guard. All those phantom cops on the payroll couldn't do anything about the real killings.
Honestly I do not feel comfortable with some islamics here in this country.
If they assimilate, I don't have a problem with them. In fact on 9/12 I suggested to my bishop that we offer our Muslim neighbors help if they were set upon by people seeking revenge against the innocent. There was a mosque not far from where I lived. I did then and do now believe that most Muslims in America are peaceful good neighbors happy to be here and fully desireous of becoming American citizens.
They have a right to move about freely and we also reserve the right to protect ourselves.
Everyman speaks. I think your pithy statement sums up the attitude of most Americans nicely.

Yes the cubans do RULE Miami, but do give some courtsey to other latinos. Whites/blacks, I'm sorry, you'll have to grin and baer it there in Miami.
What i meant by 'some islamics" is a few arabs i've met. One in particular not a very nice person to be around. who knows waht he is thinking inside.
Agree that 99.9% muslims are peace loving folk. I talk with a neighbor who is muslim , we have delighful conversations.
I'm sure the 99% peace loving muslims hope the US does infiltrate the few al queda terriost cells operating here in the US and Canada. But why should liberals cry FOUL when we do spying on suspects? The muslims here have no objection at all.

having lived in new orleans all my life, 50 yrs, i do not know what the heck is going on there with recent murders. Most all young teens/early 20's. I had figured most of that nonsense was behind us by now, Katrina gave us a new start. Seems some things just don't want to die. Hopefully the worse is over and the streets will find peace.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

Fugu

Post by Fugu » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:10 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
Despite having been around awhile and having seen a few amazing things, I'm still surprised whenever someone who's so convinced of his moral superiority makes such glaringly hypocitical statements that betray the loathsome bigotry and innate nastiness of his true nature.
Oh, you mean after the loathsome bigotry found in the right-wing who believe in the superiority of their own views regarding race? I've seen some pretty bigotted things in my life and the majority have come from the fringe rightwing who make glaringly idiotic statements about other cultures, other races, and other beliefs. Many of them right here. So get off your high horse David.

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Post by DavidRoss » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:10 am

Fugu wrote:
DavidRoss wrote:
Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
Despite having been around awhile and having seen a few amazing things, I'm still surprised whenever someone who's so convinced of his moral superiority makes such glaringly hypocitical statements that betray the loathsome bigotry and innate nastiness of his true nature.
Oh, you mean after the loathsome bigotry found in the right-wing who believe in the superiority of their own views regarding race? I've seen some pretty bigotted things in my life and the majority have come from the fringe rightwing who make glaringly idiotic statements about other cultures, other races, and other beliefs. Many of them right here. So get off your high horse David.
Case in point.
"Most men, including those at ease with problems of the greatest complexity, can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious truth if it would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which they have proudly taught to others, and which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabric of their lives." ~Leo Tolstoy

"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character." ~Dale Turner

"Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either." ~Albert Einstein
"Truth is incontrovertible; malice may attack it and ignorance may deride it; but, in the end, there it is." ~Winston Churchill

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Fugu

Post by Fugu » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:05 am

Ooh, what an inspired comeback. :roll:

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:51 pm

DavidRoss wrote:
Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
Despite having been around awhile and having seen a few amazing things, I'm still surprised whenever someone who's so convinced of his moral superiority makes such glaringly hypocitical statements that betray the loathsome bigotry and innate nastiness of his true nature.
Hypocricital I could take. But his comments are so abysmally ignorant and he's so completely indifferent to his ignorance, and how unhinged his comments are, that it's a waste of time and cyberink and cyberpaper to respond to them. Like the recent article in Commentary on America Haters alludes, you can't change minds like his, because they exhibit a pathology, and pathologies are impervious to facts or reason.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:58 pm

paulb wrote:having lived in new orleans all my life, 50 yrs, i do not know what the heck is going on there with recent murders.
Lack of credible police presence. It was the murder capital of the nation before Katrina.
I had figured most of that nonsense was behind us by now, Katrina gave us a new start. Seems some things just don't want to die. Hopefully the worse is over and the streets will find peace.
Unfortunately, Katrina left Nagin and Blanco in place. If Nagin was an incompetent twit before Katrina, and the city was run by some of the most corrupt good ol' boys on the planet, now Nagin is a very very rich twit, backed up by an equally incompetent and greedy city and state apparatus. Now, tell me, where's the conditions for improvement in that mix? One of the reasons why there has been so little rebuilding in New Orleans is that the corrupt state legislature is fighting over how to divy up the Federal loot among themselves and their interests. Fortuantely, many of the black residents escaped and ain't comin' back.
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Post by jack stowaway » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:25 pm

Fugu wrote:The "myth" of multiculturalism. Ya, right. :roll: Maybe, just maybe you head in the sand rightwingers should realize that we live in a diverse culture. What is an American? You? Me? If it were up to you Jack, you'd banish all people who weren't white, didn't speak your kind of English, and didn't have a band of red around their neck.
If you’re asking do I prefer to socialise with people who broadly look like me, think like me and act like me, the answer is yes, of course! Why on earth would I not? To hanker after the company of those who espouse radically different religious beliefs and values purely for the purpose of some idealised, pie-in-the-sky theory of cultural equality is not only perverse but unbiological. Kinship is bred into our genes.

Does this mean that I reject people who look different, act different and believe differently? No. That would be equally perverse. The world is full of diversity and all the richer for it. The melting pot of American society bubbles so appealingly in large part because of the heady mixture of exotic ingredients.

‘Diversity’ however, (i.e., official multiculturalism) proclaims difference and the ‘right’ to maintain one’s own culture, however inimicable that culture may be with American values. It is assimilation that I defend, the foundation of American greatness: E Pluribus Unum.

Let them come, but let them be American (or French, or Australian or British as the case may be).

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:54 pm

jack stowaway wrote:Does this mean that I reject people who look different, act different and believe differently? No.
Dan will latch onto your first paragraph and never read any further.
‘Diversity’ however, (i.e., official multiculturalism) proclaims difference and the ‘right’ to maintain one’s own culture, however inimicable that culture may be with American values.
I don't care if they bring their food (there's an excellent cookbook based on the favorite recipes of immigrant groups), their native dress, their games, their languages (to be spoken in the home only), all the things that enforced Multicultural Weeks celebrate riotously. But they may not bring their polygamy, their female circumscision, their widow murders, their female child murders, their blood feuds, their tribal exclusivity, their honor killings, their animal sacrifices, their bad civic habits like rampant bribery, their gangs, or any of the other bad baggage they should have left behind in their failed states.
Let them come, but let them be American (or French, or Australian or British as the case may be).
Well, you have to admit, Jack, that as far as the French and British are concerned, the recent events in both countries demonstrate that both nations have done a piss-poor job of assimilating their immigrants. If I had to settle on a cause, it would be that in America birth has never been the only way that a person could become a good American, fully accepted within the community, state, and nation. I am given to understand from the Economist reporting on France that there is still a prejudice against people not born in France, and they are rarely accepted as full citizens. The Brits have done better, according to Economist, but not much, preferring to leave the immigrants in their "havens of diversity and multiculturalism" which was just a euphemism for "get out of our sight, stay in your ghetto and we won't bother you, and don't bother us." I don't know about Australia. You'll have to tell me.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by paulb » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:43 pm

Barry Z wrote:
jack stowaway wrote:3) Western intellectuals need to wake up to the fact that the problem is not radical or fringe interpretations of Islam but Islam itself. Until Islam undegoes a reformation, it will remain a breeding ground for terrorists and hate-spouting ideologues.
In "Clash of Civilizations," Huntington has solid figures (as of the mid ninetimes, when the book was written) as to the inordinately high number of wars between bordering countries with different cultures that involve an Islamic country and also the extremely high percentage of times that Islamic countries resort to violence to solve international crises or tensions as compared to countries with other dominant cultures. It's a MUCH higher percentage than the U.S. has, yet you'd think the reverse is true if you listen to the European, and, increasingly, the American left.
I missed Jack's highly important insight on a very sensitive issue facing Islam. Is its identity in a state of fragmention that is becomming a open wound, festering and infected with inter-faith bickering that leads each side to an all out war on the other? "Which Iman (holy man) do you follow?" The sunnis and shiites cannot seem to work things out amongst themselves, each wants the upper hand. Is this any kind of peace loving religion?
i recall something about one of the islamic eschatology beliefs, that Mohammed mentions when islam is the world faith, at that time the world will have eternal peace.
i recall my visit to a hare krishna temple in new orleans that spoke of similar ideas from hindu tecahings, with many beautiful paintings as illustrations of this future idylic world consciousness.
I gather in islam there is something of this idea that a few muslims carry to a high neurotic intensity. 'IT MUST BE SO...AND NOW" So declares Mohammed, blessed be his holy name "against all infidels".
I've tried to read the koran at least 2X's in the past 15 yrs, but do not get very far. Its not my cup of tea, has too much violent language.
Yeah i know the old testament very well. i know its violent content also. But i also know the new testament.
btw i do not agree much with fundamental christianity's eschatological ideas either, for the most part. At least not in their interpretation.
but thats beside the point in this discussion. Which is: does Islam have a crisis in its midst? And to keep its identity as a solid religion, it projects its issues upon western culture, so as to re-unite the sects into ONE FAITH to fight the infidels..?
I recall reading in the epilogue of a Jungian writer's book on Islam and the west, that we should be aware of just how much the west plays the shadow part of islmaic radicals. And the US in particular with its vast material wealth provides a most likely hook to that projection. I recall raeding that cerca 1997 at Tulane, never could relocate the book for more details. When the terrorists struck the Twin towers, the authors words surfaced in my memory, sharply. At that time i understood what before I only glanced over while standing in the isle with only passing interest in the book. .
As Jack points out, Islam is in a transformation, albeit violent at times. . What changes will take place is in the hands of the faithful of that religion.
If i mentioned these ideas on another forum, I'd be shot dead.
i am not islamic-phobic at all. I have friendly chats with a islamic neighbor whenever he passes by.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by paulb » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:54 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
jack stowaway wrote:Does this mean that I reject people who look different, act different and believe differently? No.
Dan will latch onto your first paragraph and never read any further.
‘Diversity’ however, (i.e., official multiculturalism) proclaims difference and the ‘right’ to maintain one’s own culture, however inimicable that culture may be with American values.
I don't care if they bring their food (there's an excellent cookbook based on the favorite recipes of immigrant groups), their native dress, their games, their languages (to be spoken in the home only), all the things that enforced Multicultural Weeks celebrate riotously. But they may not bring their polygamy, their female circumscision, their widow murders, their female child murders, their blood feuds, their tribal exclusivity, their honor killings, their animal sacrifices, their bad civic habits like rampant bribery, their gangs, or any of the other bad baggage they should have left behind in their failed states.
Let them come, but let them be American (or French, or Australian or British as the case may be).
Well, you have to admit, Jack, that as far as the French and British are concerned, the recent events in both countries demonstrate that both nations have done a piss-poor job of assimilating their immigrants. If I had to settle on a cause, it would be that in America birth has never been the only way that a person could become a good American, fully accepted within the community, state, and nation. I am given to understand from the Economist reporting on France that there is still a prejudice against people not born in France, and they are rarely accepted as full citizens. The Brits have done better, according to Economist, but not much, preferring to leave the immigrants in their "havens of diversity and multiculturalism" which was just a euphemism for "get out of our sight, stay in your ghetto and we won't bother you, and don't bother us." I don't know about Australia. You'll have to tell me.
I recall chatting with a german US citizen just before katrina hit, we chatted for an hour on his front lawn. I 've never been to europe so i asked him how is it in germany, some issues they are facing. The conversation turned to education, as you know New Orleans has the worst public education scores in the country. I mentioned that compred to geramny's public system, the NO must really look lousey. Then he began to explain to me the extent of the muslim population and the pressure the growing muslim population is placing on the public school system.
I was not aware europe has such a large muslim population, and the issues it causes. He seemed concerned about these issues facing his home country, and had no answers.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:05 pm

paulb wrote:Then he began to explain to me the extent of the muslim population and the pressure the growing muslim population is placing on the public school system.

I was not aware europe has such a large muslim population, and the issues it causes. He seemed concerned about these issues facing his home country, and had no answers.
I believe the year is 2020 when the Muslim population in France will be the majority. Most of this problem has to do with the Europeans refusal to be fruitful and multiply. The declining birth rate in the West, including the US, causes the countries to import labor, especially from Muslim former colonies. In the US, however, we are barely reproducing at replacement rate, 2 and change, and we have huge, in comparison, immigration, legal and illegal. I'll try to find a couple of articles in the Economist to brief you up on the problem. The Germans' Muslim population is predominantly Turkish, which are far less radicalized than Muslims from especially Arab nations, which is a comment on the inability of Arab despots to modernize.
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Fugu

Post by Fugu » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:44 am

We are a country of diversity of faith, culture, and race. The danger in your thinking is that by coming here we are all assimilated into a big pot called "American." The melting pot mentality is wrong and at its core intolerant because it ignores difference and does not appreciate diversity of belief, culure, and background. It is similar to the ugly American mentality that believes that wherever they go, that culture has to cater to them. I've seen it, I've been disgusted by it, and it will be the doom of American culture.

And of course, you get from the right-wing (David) his comment about how "racist" I am by my comments about the typical xenophobic right-wing in this country.

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Post by jack stowaway » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:46 am

Corlyss,

Australians were shaken out of complacency by the recent race riots in Sydney, which pitched Australian and Middle Eastern youths against each other.

These and other incidents, notably the hostility towards Australian/Western values which regularly emanates from the mouths of imported imans, seems to be turning the populace against multiculturalism (formerly deeply entrenched here).

Now there are greater calls for a more assimilationist approach as people begin to question the wisdom of inviting migrants to maintain their own cultural identities at the expense of becoming 'Australian'.

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Post by paulb » Thu Jun 22, 2006 8:11 am

Fugu wrote:We are a country of diversity of faith, culture, and race. The danger in your thinking is that by coming here we are all assimilated into a big pot called "American." The melting pot mentality is wrong and at its core intolerant because it ignores difference and does not appreciate diversity of belief, culure, and background. It is similar to the ugly American mentality that believes that wherever they go, that culture has to cater to them. I've seen it, I've been disgusted by it, and it will be the doom of American culture.

And of course, you get from the right-wing (David) his comment about how "racist" I am by my comments about the typical xenophobic right-wing in this country.
You'd have many supporters in your "theories" kindly put...over at "another' classical forum I know. Your mind set is over at "the other site". They also love to banter the word 'xenophobe" when they feel they have nothing better, nothing significant to say.
First of all the USA is THE most diverse nation on earth. You name it we've got it. And guess what? As long as one is peaceful about it, you can believe and practice, and live exactly as you please.
From Miami, to Idaho(home to skin heads , militias, etc etc), to NYC, to Los Angeles, we've got it. Muslims are all welcomed. Just as long as they behave themselves, thats all we ask.
"xenophobe" when I see anyone use this word , it reveals to me their level of intelligence.

Corlyss I realize that the muslims of europe work at the lower labor jobs that some europens will not do. Like the Mexicans rebuilding New Orleans. Many blacks that came back to the city see the mexicans doing the rebuilding.
Obviously my cries over the past 20 yrs that high school kids should be taught trades for half the day, would have been of great value in post reconstruction of katrina. Now they walk around the city taking whatever jobs the govenment can assign them.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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