Bodies of 2 missing US soldiers found in Iraq

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RebLem
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Bodies of 2 missing US soldiers found in Iraq

Post by RebLem » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:06 am

Two U.S. soldiers missing in Iraq found dead

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:16 PM BST

By Mussab Al-Khairalla

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two U.S. soldiers who went missing south of Baghdad last week were killed and their bodies were found in an area where a group linked to al Qaeda said it had abducted them, an Iraqi defence official said on Tuesday.

"The two soldiers were killed and they were found in Yusufiya near an electricity plant," Major General Abdul Aziz Mohammed told a news conference in Baghdad.

He did not say when the soldiers were killed nor when their bodies were found.

The U.S. military had launched an intense search for the men involving 8,000 U.S. and Iraqi troops.

The Mujahideen Shura Council said on Monday it had kidnapped the soldiers -- Private Thomas Lowell Tucker, 25, from Madras, Oregon and Private Kristian Menchaca, 23, from Houston, Texas.

The two went missing at dusk on Friday after an ambush at a checkpoint in Yusufiya, a town in an area south of Baghdad some Iraqis call the "Triangle of Death, which is an al Qaeda stronghold. Another soldier was killed in the attack.

The deaths dealt a blow to the U.S. military after it killed the al Qaeda leader in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, in an air strike on June 7.

Earlier, a car bomb killed seven people in a crowded Baghdad market, in spite of a crackdown on al Qaeda that the government says involves 40,000 Iraqi forces.

ELDERLY AND DISABLED

In the southern city of Basra, a suicide bomber attacked a crowd of elderly and disabled people as they gathered to collect pensions, suggesting Iraq's violence may be reaching a new level of brutality.
The bomber, who had two belts of explosives strapped around him, wounded five people.

Japan's Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi said on Tuesday Japan would withdraw its 550 soldiers, engaged in reconstruction and humanitarian work in Iraq.

On Monday, Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said his forces would take over security from July in the southern province of Muthanna from a British-led multinational contingent that includes Japanese troops.
Maliki, eager to show Iraqis he is taking control of the country, has also cracked down in the oil port of Basra where a state of emergency was declared last month.

The bloodshed has not let up in spite of Zarqawi's death.

His successor, identified by U.S. military authorities as Abu Ayyub al-Masri, has vowed to keep up a campaign of bombings, shootings and beheadings.

A second car bomb in Baghdad wounded five people on Tuesday and a roadside bomb killed two and wounded 28 at the Bab al- Sharji market in the capital.

Five more bodies of people who appeared to be victims of sectarian violence were found in different parts of Baghdad with gunshot wounds to the head and handcuffed, police said.

(Writing by Michael Georgy)

link
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Cosima__J

Post by Cosima__J » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:06 pm

I'm surprised that nobody has commented on this story yet.

It seems that the world is outraged about Gitmo, and yet what the terrorist insurgents just did to the two soldiers is far, far worse than anything at Guantanamo. Will we hear any outrage against the savage murderers of our two men? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

Read the New York Times article below and judge for yourself what kind of individuals we're up against:

link

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Post by Corlyss_D » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Cosima__J wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has commented on this story yet.

It seems that the world is outraged about Gitmo, and yet what the terrorist insurgents just did to the two soldiers is far, far worse than anything at Guantanamo. Will we hear any outrage against the savage murderers of our two men? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
No, no! You don't get it, Cos. Whatever anyone does to Americans is justified and righteous, no matter how gruesome. Whatever Americans do to detainees, not matter how humane, is morally equivalent to public dismemberment. If an Iraqi gets shot by American troops, why, it's ipso facto murder, and they will be scapegoated. If an Iraqi kidnaps and kills an American, why, that's merely an expression of displeasure with the occupation, which is immoral anyway. Hell no, there won't be any outrage.
Last edited by Corlyss_D on Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Barry » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:31 pm

Cosima__J wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has commented on this story yet.

It seems that the world is outraged about Gitmo, and yet what the terrorist insurgents just did to the two soldiers is far, far worse than anything at Guantanamo. Will we hear any outrage against the savage murderers of our two men? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
Of course not. You know only Americans and Israelis commit atrocities.
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Post by jbuck919 » Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:43 pm

With all respect to the dead and their families and due concern about the circumstances, I'm relieved it was not any parent of one of my students (a very real possibility for which the school has a plan).

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Post by Febnyc » Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:03 pm

Barry Z wrote: Of course not. You know only Americans and Israelis commit atrocities.
Ain't it the darn truth, Barry!

This story today sickened me. But I'm getting used to being outraged by the actions of the followers of the Religion of Peace.

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Post by Ralph » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:53 pm

Our legal and moral obligations are not mediated by the acts of savages who defy civilized normative standards. I would have no trouble killing anyone involved in the murder of our soldiers but that doesn't relieve us from obeying the law. I doubt there are any Americans who aren't sickened by this grotesque atrocity.

Which, by the way, was also committed by the Japanese in WWII (read "Flags of Our Fathers") and some Native American tribes.
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Fugu

Post by Fugu » Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:15 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Cosima__J wrote:I'm surprised that nobody has commented on this story yet.

It seems that the world is outraged about Gitmo, and yet what the terrorist insurgents just did to the two soldiers is far, far worse than anything at Guantanamo. Will we hear any outrage against the savage murderers of our two men? I hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.
No, no! You don't get it, Cos. Whatever anyone does to Americans is justified and righteous, no matter how gruesome. Whatever Americans do to detainees, not matter how humane, is morally equivalent to public dismemberment. If an Iraqi gets shot by American troops, why, it's ipso facto murder, and they will be scapegoated. If an Iraqi kidnaps and kills an American, why, that's merely an expression of displeasure with the occupation, which is immoral anyway. Hell no, there won't be any outrage.
Ah, another of Crusader Corlyss rants. If you knew anything at all about Islam and the culture, what we did in Abu Graib, to a Muslim, is just as outrageous and the whole "this is a crusade" comment by your boy Bush only firmly established in their minds what this was all about. Does that mean what they did is right? No, but to make it a comparison with Abu Graib is simply comparing apples and oranges.

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Post by RebLem » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:37 am

I am more interested in the fact that no one said anything about the group of elderly and disabled Iraqis in Basra who were attacked by a suicide bomber.

Some of us Americans do talk more about atrocities that Americans commit than those others commit. I certainly do, and I am proud of it. That is because there is little we can do about atrocities committed by people of other countries, and we are not morally stained by their actions, unless it is an atrocity committed by an alleged ally or someone who is "on our side." But we do have a moral responsibility to oppose atrocities committed by our own people in our name. Would you rather we remain silent, and give the rest of the world the impression that we all approve of atrocities committed by Americans?

Oh, and who were the people who complained most about atrocities at Gitmo and brought them to the attention of the American people and the world? FBI agents sent there to monitor the activities of the military, that's who.
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Post by mourningstar » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:41 am

It's sick. what happenend was just sick.

but i will tell you why the world isn't shocked. it's because they feel like American started the war. their victims is their consequences. :?
"Desertion for the artist means abandoning the concrete."

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Post by Ralph » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:27 am

THIS brings back memories of Vietnam.

*****

Iraqi colleagues killed U.S. soldiers, military says

SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- Two California soldiers shot to death in Iraq were murdered by Iraqi civil-defense officers patrolling with them, military investigators have found.

The deaths of Army Spc. Patrick R. McCaffrey Sr. and 1st Lt. Andre D. Tyson were originally attributed to an ambush during a patrol near Balad, Iraq, on June 22, 2004.

But the Army's Criminal Investigation Command found that one or more of the Iraqis attached to the American soldiers on patrol fired at them, a military official said Tuesday.

A Pentagon spokesman knew of no other similar incident, calling it "extremely rare."

The Army has conducted an extensive investigation into the deaths but declined to provide details out of respect for relatives of the soldiers, spokesman Paul Boyce said Tuesday evening.

It was unclear whether the investigators had established a motive or arrested any suspects.

The families of McCaffrey and Tyson were to be briefed on the report's conclusions Tuesday and Wednesday by Brig. Gen. Oscar Hilman, the soldiers' commander at the time, and three other officers.

"When they come I have my list of questions ready, and I want these answers and I don't want lies," McCaffrey's mother, Nadia McCaffrey, said.

Soldiers who witnessed the attack have told her that two Iraqi patrolmen opened fire on her son's unit. The witnesses also said a third gunman simultaneously drove up to the American unit in a van, climbed onto the vehicle and fired at the Americans, she said.

"Nothing is clear. Nothing is clear," she said. Her son was shot eight times by bullets of various calibers, some of which penetrated his body armor, she said. She believes he bled to death.

Nadia McCaffrey has become a vocal critic of the war in Iraq, and said her son had reservations about it, too, though he served well and was promoted posthumously to sergeant.

"I really want this story to come out; I want people to know what happened to my son," she said. "There is no doubt to me that this (ambushes by attached Iraqi units) is still happening to soldiers today, but our chain of command is awfully reckless; they don't seem to give a damn about what's happening to soldiers."

Iraqi forces who had trained with the Americans had fired at them twice before the incident that killed Patrick McCaffrey, and he had reported it to his superiors, she said.

Boyce said the U.S. military remained confident in its operations with Iraqis.

"We continue to have confidence in our operations with Iraqi soldiers and have witnessed the evolution of a stronger fighting army for the Iraqi people," he said.

Patrick McCaffrey joined the National Guard the day after the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, his mother said.

Tyson's family could not be located, and a message left with his former unit was not immediately returned.

McCaffrey, 34, and Tyson, 33, were members of the California National Guard. Both were assigned to the Army National Guard's 579th Engineer Battalion, based in Petaluma.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-California, pressed the Pentagon for answers about the case when Nadia McCaffrey was unsatisfied by explanations from the military.

"Mrs. McCaffrey is set to receive a briefing from Pentagon officials (Wednesday) afternoon in California, during which we hope they will provide her with a full report of the facts surrounding Sgt. McCaffrey's death," said Natalie Ravitz, a Boxer spokeswoman.
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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:50 am

RebLem wrote:I am more interested in the fact that no one said anything about the group of elderly and disabled Iraqis in Basra who were attacked by a suicide bomber.

Some of us Americans do talk more about atrocities that Americans commit than those others commit.
Yes? Well, how terribly fair of you. Of course, most of the "atrocities" remain ambiguous and unproven, often the product of Sunni frame ups. For you to call anything that happened at Gitmo an "atrocity" is language abuse in the first degree. Like radical feminists claiming that everything short of rape is the same as rape. I don't call what happened at Abu Graib an atrocity, either. Nobody died. The Iraqis weren't in Abu Graib for jaywalking. Almost all the people captured erroneously were released, and what was left didn't merit the self-flaggalating we indulged in. Get me to equate beheadings with the rough hazing those inexperienced "soldiers" did to detainees. Go on. Just try. Someone has to speak for proportionality.
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Post by jbuck919 » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:54 am

Ralph wrote:THIS brings back memories of Vietnam.

*****

"We continue to have confidence in our operations with Iraqi soldiers and have witnessed the evolution of a stronger fighting army for the Iraqi people," he said.
I assume that is the phrase to which you are referring. I was making analogies with Vietnam here a two years ago (before I started teaching the children of soldiers deployed there) and I backed off because I was being raked over the coals (not necessarily by Ralph). The most frightening analogy is that we might have to simply withdraw again just to get it over with. The consequences would be another bloodbath, but this time in a country that cannot provide the (selfish to us) compensation of a diaspora of talented immigrants and is assured, from the way things have turned out, of being a continuing threat to western security in the future.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:55 am

mourningstar wrote:but i will tell you why the world isn't shocked. it's because they feel like American started the war. their victims is their consequences. :?
Pretty ignorant of them, don't you think? Or don't countless UN resolutions mean anything when it comes to actually doing something? I know the resolutions are all just pretty speeches and meaningless words, but words do have consequences.
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Post by mourningstar » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:09 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
mourningstar wrote:but i will tell you why the world isn't shocked. it's because they feel like American started the war. their victims is their consequences. :?
Pretty ignorant of them, don't you think? Or don't countless UN resolutions mean anything when it comes to actually doing something? I know the resolutions are all just pretty speeches and meaningless words, but words do have consequences.
Yeah offcourse. I hate the talk of Kofi Annan. he makes stupid promises and his son frauds the whole thing up. same as Sharon. .. they usually don't do "stuff". haven't you notice? it's always the son's politicians who's involved in a fraud scandal or something. daughers don't do that, they are more involved into affairs and drinking crap. it's laughable i suppose. but it annoys the hell out of me
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Post by Lilith » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:12 pm

"Someone has to speak for proportionality." - Corlyss

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm choking its so funny.

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Post by RebLem » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:00 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
RebLem wrote:I am more interested in the fact that no one said anything about the group of elderly and disabled Iraqis in Basra who were attacked by a suicide bomber.

Some of us Americans do talk more about atrocities that Americans commit than those others commit.
Yes? Well, how terribly fair of you. Of course, most of the "atrocities" remain ambiguous and unproven, often the product of Sunni frame ups. For you to call anything that happened at Gitmo an "atrocity" is language abuse in the first degree. Like radical feminists claiming that everything short of rape is the same as rape. I don't call what happened at Abu Graib an atrocity, either. Nobody died. The Iraqis weren't in Abu Graib for jaywalking. Almost all the people captured erroneously were released, and what was left didn't merit the self-flaggalating we indulged in. Get me to equate beheadings with the rough hazing those inexperienced "soldiers" did to detainees. Go on. Just try. Someone has to speak for proportionality.
Nobody died? Somebody's been lying to you again,Corlyss, but, then, that's not suprising considering the people in whom you choose to place your faith. Here's a report from Human Rights First. In fact, 108 people have died in US custody in Iraq. The US government itself acknowledges that 28 of these are confirmed or suspected homicides, one of them at Abu Ghraib, as of 26 APR 2005. Read:

April 26, 2005

One Year After the Abu Ghraib Torture Photos: U.S. Government Response 'Grossly Inadequate'
Architects of U.S. Torture Policy: Promoted, Not Punished
A Human Rights First Assessment
One year after torture in U.S. custody was graphically revealed to the world in the form of photos from Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq, Human Rights First reports that the U.S. government’s response has been grossly inadequate and that key policies that led to that abuse are still in place.
The Abu Ghraib photos were shocking and met with bipartisan and worldwide censure. But those photos were just a prelude to revelations in the past year of widespread abuse in U.S. detention and interrogation operations that had come badly unmoored from the rule of law.
A year after the broadcast of the Abu Ghraib photos, it is clear:
Torture and abuse of prisoners in U.S. custody extend far beyond the walls of Abu Ghraib;

The civilian and military leaders in charge of detention and interrogation operations a year ago have been promoted rather than punished;

The key policies that led to such widespread illegality are still in place.
The gravity and scope of the problem – combined with the inadequate response by the Bush administration – underscore the need for an independent, nonpartisan review of detention and interrogation polices and practices. Only Congress can take this step.
When the pictures of torture at Abu Ghraib became public, President Bush publicly repudiated the conduct. Administration officials declared that torture was unacceptable, and insisted that the lawlessness the photos revealed was the unauthorized work of a “few bad apples.” The facts revealed in the ensuing year tell a dramatically different story. Even the incomplete and limited internal investigations conducted since then have revealed a spectrum of problems, many of which continue today.
Deaths in Custody: 108 People Have Died in U.S. Custody, U.S. Government Acknowledges
The U.S. government has acknowledged 28 confirmed or suspected homicides of detainees in U.S. custody. Only one of these homicides occurred at Abu Ghraib.[1]

At least 45 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004.[2]

63 of the 108 detainee deaths occurred at locations other than Abu Ghraib.[3]
Abu Ghraib – One Prison in a Wider Network
Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo are two of the most well-known prisons, but they are just two sites in a much larger network of at least two dozen U.S. detention facilities.
There are six main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide—three in Iraq, two in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay;[4]

There are also approximately 25 transient facilities – field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility – in Afghanistan and Iraq.[5]

As of February 2005, roughly 65,000 people have been screened for possible detention, and about 30,000 of those were entered “into the system,” and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan.[6]
Secret Prisons, “Ghost Detainees”
In addition to Abu Ghraib and the five other acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide, there are a number of other “secret” detention locations at which the United States has held, and continues to hold, prisoners. These have included CIA facilities in Afghanistan and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan.[7]
The United States continues to hold detainees in these and other “secret” facilities, not registering them with the International Committee of the Red Cross or allowing independent Red Cross observers to access and examine these detainees to make sure they are not being mistreated.[8]

A U.S. official, General Paul Kern, estimated that CIA has held as many as 100 ghost detainees in Iraq alone.[9]

The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq in late 2003 and early 2004 for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions.[10]
Detentions Are On the Rise
The detainee population in Iraq has doubled in the past five months; the prison population today is at the same level it was when the abuses documented in the Abu Ghraib photos occurred. The rising numbers of detentions have strained the capacity of the main detention facilities in Iraq, a factor now-concluded Pentagon investigations identified as contributing to abuse such as that at Abu Ghraib.
More than 11,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay.

As of March 2005, there were 8,900 detainees in main facilities and 1,300 in transient facilities in Iraq.

The U.S. was holding approximately 600 detainees in Afghanistan.

There are approximately 520 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay.[11]
Architects of U.S. Interrogation Policy: Promoted, Not Punished
Despite evidence of pervasive abuse, and findings by the Army’s own investigators of “systemic problems” and “leader responsibility” at high levels, most senior officials involved in U.S. detention and interrogation policy setting have not been punished – and many have even been promoted.
Secretary Donald Rumsfeld - who once asserted full responsibility for the torture that occurred – was asked by the President to stay on as Secretary of Defense.

Former White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales – among the first to embrace the no-rules-apply approach to the “war on terror” – is now U.S. Attorney General.

The month after the Abu Ghraib photos became public, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller – formerly in charge of interrogations at Guantanamo and credited with instituting the use of dogs at Abu Ghraib – was assigned to be senior commander in charge of detention operations in Iraq.

Jay S. Bybee, former Assistant Attorney General in the Office of Legal Counsel and the principal author of the memo defining torture so narrowly as to require an act to “be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death,” was appointed a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in March, 2003.

William J. Haynes, Defense Department General Counsel – who recommended over the protests of military lawyers many of the most abusive tactics used at Guantanamo (tactics that quickly “migrated” to Iraq) – has been nominated to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit.

Maj. Gen. Barbara Fast – the highest-ranking intelligence officer so far tied to the Abu Ghraib scandal – was assigned to the Army’s main interrogation training facility at Fort Huachuca, Arizona last month.

Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez – who oversaw detention facilities in Iraq and was excoriated in Pentagon reports for his role in letting torture continue under his command – was named the head of the Army’s 5th Corps in Europe.
Of the officers whose role in the Abu Ghraib scandal was examined by the Army at the request of the Senate Armed Services Committee, only Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski received any punishment. Brig. Gen. Karpinski commanded detention operations at Abu Ghraib prison during the time the now-famous photos of abuse were taken. Brig. Gen. Karpinski was relieved of her command and received a written reprimand.
The highest ranking service member successfully prosecuted has been Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was dismissed from the service without jail time after being convicted for his role in the strangulation death of a (non-Abu Ghraib) detainee.
Torture Policies Still In Place
The numbers alone make clear the role that policy decisions have played – and continue to play – in facilitating the torture and abuse of U.S.-held detainees. Beyond the numbers:
In an April 16, 2003 directive, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld approved for use at Guantanamo interrogation techniques including prolonged solitary confinement and “environmental manipulation.” The April 2003 directive, authorizing treatment in violation of U.S. and international law, is still in effect. FBI memos released since the April 2003 directive was made public have charted the effects of this policy, describing detainees in frigid temperatures left chained to the floor, lying in their own excrement, in one case pulling his own hair out in response.[12]

The Administration ruled in 2002 that the Geneva Conventions do not generally apply in
Afghanistan; that policy remains in place. In addition, there are at least 325 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration says the Geneva Conventions do not apply.[13]

The Administration also takes the view that the prohibition against cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment does not apply to non-citizen prisoners the U.S. holds abroad. Attorney General Gonzales asserted incorrectly that “there is no legal obligation ... on cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment with respect to aliens overseas.”[14]

A draft version of revised Army detention rules circulated last month maintains the Administration’s equivocal commitment to abiding by the Geneva Conventions; in one section, the draft implies that even the fundamental legal obligation to treat so-called “enemy combatants” humanely may be avoided at will in the general interest of “military necessity.”[15]

While Pentagon investigators cited the vagueness and confusion of these policies – if Geneva doesn’t apply, what does? – as contributing to the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib, there remain at least three different sets of still ambiguous interrogation guidelines for Iraq, Afghanistan, and Guantanamo Bay.[16]

The policy of outsourcing torture to other nations continues. An estimated 100 to 150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan.[17]

[1] Prisoner Deaths in U.S. Custody, Assoc. Press, March 16, 2005, available at http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 007S95.DTL (accessed April 18, 2005).
[2] Prisoner Deaths in U.S. Custody, supra, note 2.
[3]Id..
[4] Human Rights First, Behind the Wire: an update to Ending Secret Detentions Ch. 2 (March 2005) available at http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/ ... 033005.pdf (accessed April 18, 2005); E-mail from LTC Michele Dewerth, Combined Forces Command to Priti Patel, Human Rights First (June 9, 2004, 13:36 EST) (on file with Human Rights First); Telephone Interview with Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, Detainee Operations, Multi-National Forces (Oct. 20, 2004); Press Briefing, White House (Jan. 9, 2002), available at http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 109-5.html (accessed Jan. 21, 2005).
[5] Behind the Wire, supra note 8; Telephone Interview with Lt. Col. Barry Johnson, Detainee Operations, Multi-National Forces (Oct. 20, 2004) ; E-mail from LTC Pamela Keeton, Public Affairs Officer, Combined Forces Command to Priti Patel, Human Rights First (Oct. 25, 2004, 10:51 EST) (on file with Human Rights First); U.S. Military to Allow Red Cross to Visit Second Afghan Prison, Assoc. Press, June 9, 2004, available at http://news.bostonherald.com/internatio ... 23&format= (accessed Jan. 20, 2005); Prisoner Abuse Claim Emerges in Afghanistan, Agence France Presse, July 6, 2004, available at http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archi ... %20News%20
archives/July/4%20n/Prisoner%20Abuse%20Claim%20Emerges%20in
%20Afghanistan.htm (accessed Nov. 17, 2004); Other news sources list the number of outlying facilities to be 30. See Declan Walsh, Frustrated US Forces Fail to Win Hearts and Minds: Troops Hunting Taliban Run Into Wall of Silence, Guardian, Sept. 23, 2004, available at http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/s ... 64,00.html (accessed Jan. 20, 2005).
[6] Kathleen T. Rhem, Army Improving Procedures For Handling Detainees, Amer. Forces Press Service, Feb. 25, 2005, available at http://www-tradoc.army.mil/pao/TNSarchi ... 025305.htm (accessed Mar. 8, 2005) (quoting Donald J. Ryder, Army’s provost marshal general).
[7] Human Rights First, Ending Secret Detentions (June 2004), available at http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/ ... ns_web.pdf (accessed Mar. 8, 2005); Dana Priest and Joe Stephens, Secret World of U.S. Interrogation: Long History of Tactics in Overseas Prisons is Coming to Light, Wash. Post, May 11, 2004, at A1; David Kaplan and Ilana Ozernoy, Al Qaeda’s Desert Inn, U.S. News and World Report, June 2, 2003, at 22-23; Yossi Melman, CIA Holding Al-Qaida Suspects in Secret Jordanian Lockup, Haaretz, Oct. 13, 2004, available at http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le7066.htm (accessed Jan. 19, 2005); See Expeditionary Strike Force One, U.S. Naval Special Operations Command Office of Public Affairs, ESG 1 Strikes From the Sea, Jan. 5, 2004, available at http://www.navsoc.navy.mil/esg1/pdf/dhowtakedown.pdf (accessed Jan. 20, 2005); Australian Taliban Fighter Handed Over to U.S. Military Forces in Afghanistan, Assoc. Press, Dec. 17, 2001, available at http://multimedia.belointeractive.com/a ... ralia.html (accessed Jan. 20, 2005); Carlotta Gall and Mark Lander, A Nation Challenged: The Captives, N.Y. Times, Jan. 5, 2002, at A5; Memorandum from Dep’t of Army, U.S. Army Crim. Investigation Command, Afghanistan (July 2, 2004), re: CID Report of Investigation – Final (C)/SSI – 0061-2004-CID369-69277-5C1J (on file with Human Rights First); Dana Priest and Barton Gellman, U.S. Decries Abuse but Defends Interrogations; 'Stress and Duress' Tactics Used on Terrorism Suspects Held in Secret Overseas Facilities, Wash. Post, Dec. 26 2002, at A1; Dana Priest, Long-Term Plan Sought For Terror Suspects, Wash. Post, Jan. 2, 2005, at A1; News Release, Dep’t of Defense, Defense Department Operational Update Briefing (July 14, 2004), available at http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/ ... -1002.html (accessed Jan. 21, 2005).
[8] Behind the Wire, supra note 4;
[9] John Hendren, CIA May Have Held As Man as 100 ‘Ghost’ Prisoners, L.A. Times, Sept. 10, 2005.
[10] Douglas Jehl, U.S. Action Bars Rights of Some Captured in Iraq, N.Y. Times, Oct. 25, 2004, at A1.
[11] Will Dunham, Number of Prisoners Held by U.S. in Iraq Grows, Reuters, March 30, 2005, available at http://reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?ty ... ID=8040976 (accessed April 18, 2005); Behind the Wire, supra note 6; See U.S. Taking Fewer Prisoners in Afghanistan, Assoc. Press, Jan. 3, 2005, available at http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/interna ... &position= (accessed Jan. 3, 2005); see also E-mail from LTC Pamela Keeton, Public Affairs Officer, Combined Forces Command to Priti Patel, Human Rights First (Jan. 6, 2005 1:00 EST) (on file with Human Rights First); Edward Wong, American Jails in Iraq Are Bursting with Detainees, N.Y. Times, Mar. 4, 2005, available at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/04/inter ... etain.html?
pagewanted=all&position= (accessed March 7, 2005); News Release, Dep’t of Defense, Detainee Transfer Announced (Mar. 7, 2005), available at http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/200 ... -2165.html (accessed Mar. 7, 2005); Ending Secret Detentions, supra note 7.
[12] DOD Memorandum for the Commander, US Southern Command: Counter-Resistance Techniques in the War on Terrorism, April 16, 2003, 1, available at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... Jun22.html (accessed April 26, 2005); see also FBI Documents, ACLU FOIA Litigation, available at http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/122004.html (accessed
[13] Douglas Jehl and Neil A. Lewis, U.S. Said to Hold More Foreigners in Iraq Fighting, N.Y. Times, Jan. 8, 2005, at A1.
[14] Frank Davies, Torture Doesn’t Bar ‘Cruel, Inhuman’ tactics, Gonzales Says, Knight-Ridder, Jan. 26, 2005, available at http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0126-06.htm (accessed April 26, 2005).
[15] Pamela Hess, ‘Enemy Combatant’ Added to DoD Doctrine, Wash. Times, April 8, 2005; see also Document on File with Human Rights First.
[16] Vice Adm. Albert T. Church, Review of Dep’t Of Defense Interrogation Operations, Executive Summary 4-9, March 10, 2005, available at http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Mar2005 ... 310exe.pdf (accessed April 26, 2005
[17] Douglas Jehl and David Johnston, Rule Change Lets CIA Freely Send Suspects Abroad to Jails, N.Y. Times, Feb. 6, 2005, available at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/politics/06intel.html (accessed Mar. 8, 2005); Jane Mayer, Outsourcing Torture, New Yorker, Feb. 14, 2005, available at http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/politics/06intel.html (accessed Mar. 8, 2005).
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/ ... 042605.htm
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jack stowaway
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Post by jack stowaway » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:18 pm

On the other hand...
[Christopher Hitchens]

LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day. How is it possible that the advocates of a post-Saddam Iraq have been placed on the defensive in this manner? And where should one begin?
Complete article at http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 5phqjw.asp

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Post by RebLem » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:05 pm

jack stowaway wrote:On the other hand...
[Christopher Hitchens]

LET ME BEGIN WITH A simple sentence that, even as I write it, appears less than Swiftian in the modesty of its proposal: "Prison conditions at Abu Ghraib have improved markedly and dramatically since the arrival of Coalition troops in Baghdad."

I could undertake to defend that statement against any member of Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International, and I know in advance that none of them could challenge it, let alone negate it. Before March 2003, Abu Ghraib was an abattoir, a torture chamber, and a concentration camp. Now, and not without reason, it is an international byword for Yankee imperialism and sadism. Yet the improvement is still, unarguably, the difference between night and day. How is it possible that the advocates of a post-Saddam Iraq have been placed on the defensive in this manner? And where should one begin?
Complete article at http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/P ... 5phqjw.asp
Oh, so now we are supposed to be proud to be Americans because we're more humane than Saddam? It is worth 2500 American dead (so far) to be "markedly" better than Saddam in the mind of some Brit writer who is always half in the bag? I thought we weren't supposed to care any more what furryners thought. But if you really have so much respect for Mr.Hitchens, you ought to take to heart his writings on the Ohio elections of 2004.
Last edited by RebLem on Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:05 pm

:roll: Surely you can find an honest broker for these tales? These human rights mills are hardly disinterested parties. They seem conveniently to find no faults with tyrannies but find all kinds of problems with democracies.
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Cosima__J

Post by Cosima__J » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:26 am

Another interesting article which, I think, puts the matter in the correct light:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial ... =110008549

It's a short article worth reading.

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