Muslim Attitudes

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jack stowaway
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Muslim Attitudes

Post by jack stowaway » Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:36 am

Poll shows Muslims in Britain are the most anti-western in Europe
- Attitude resembles public opinion in Islamic nations
· British show greatest mismatch of feelings

Julian Borger in Washington
Friday June 23, 2006

Guardian

Public opinion in Britain is mostly favourable towards Muslims, but the feeling is not requited by British Muslims, who are among the most embittered in the western world, according to a global poll published yesterday.

The poll, by the Washington-based Pew Global Attitudes Project, asked Muslims and non-Muslims about each other in 13 countries. In most, it found suspicion and contempt to be mostly mutual, but uncovered a significant mismatch in Britain.

The poll found that 63% of all Britons had a favourable opinion of Muslims, down slightly from 67% in 2004, suggesting last year's London bombings did not trigger a significant rise in prejudice. Attitudes in Britain were more positive than in the US, Germany and Spain (where the popularity of Muslims has plummeted to 29%), and about the same as in France.

Less than a third of British non-Muslims said they viewed Muslims as violent, significantly fewer than non-Muslims in Spain (60%), Germany (52%), the US (45%) and France (41%).

By contrast, the poll found that British Muslims represented a "notable exception" in Europe, with far more negative views of westerners than Islamic minorities elsewhere on the continent. A significant majority viewed western populations as selfish, arrogant, greedy and immoral. Just over half said westerners were violent. While the overwhelming majority of European Muslims said westerners were respectful of women, fewer than half British Muslims agreed. Another startling result found that only 32% of Muslims in Britain had a favourable opinion of Jews, compared with 71% of French Muslims.

Across the board, Muslim attitudes in Britain more resembled public opinion in Islamic countries in the Middle East and Asia than elsewhere in Europe. And on the whole, British Muslims were more pessimistic than those in Germany, France and Spain about the feasibility of living in a modern society while remaining devout.

The Pew poll found that British Muslims are far more likely than their European counterparts to harbour conspiracy theories about the September 11 attacks. Only 17% believed that Arabs were involved, compared with 48% in France.

There was general agreement that relations are bad, but Britons as a whole were much less likely than other Europeans to blame Muslims. More Britons faulted westerners (27%) than Muslims (25%), with a third saying both are equally responsible. British Muslims were less ambivalent. Nearly half blamed westerners. By comparison, in Germany and France both communities blamed each other in roughly equal measure.

Unlike the rest of Europe, a majority of Britons declared themselves sympathetic to Muslims offended by the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad published in the European press last year. But most Britons said the outbreak of violence was the result of Muslim intolerance for western freedom of expression. Only 9% of British Muslims agreed with that view. Nearly three-quarters blamed the controversy on western disrespect of Islam.

While finding ample confirmation of the rift between Muslims and non-Muslims around the world, the poll did find some signs of encouragement.

"Confidence in Osama bin Laden has ... fallen in most Muslim countries in recent years," the survey concluded. That was particularly true in Jordan, where 24% expressed confidence in the al-Qaida leader, compared with 60% a year ago.

Support for suicide bombing has also plummeted in Jordan, Pakistan and Indonesia. In Pakistan now, 69% said the terrorist tactic was never justified, compared with 38% four years ago.

RebLem
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Post by RebLem » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:50 am

I'd really like to have some stats on another group of related matters to get at why this is so. The temptation is to say that there is just something particularly defective about British society. But before we accept that as a given and start looking for exactly what those defects might be, I have a few questions designed to explore other possibilities.

For each European country, lets get a breakdown on what Muslims are there and for how long. How many are native born? How many are people who have been living there 20+ years? 10-20 years? 5-10 years? 1-5 years? Under a year? Are there any marked attitudinal differences across country lines or within each country that correlate with length of stay?

Of those who are immigrants, how many came intending to permanently resettle, and how many came just to earn money and, at some point, go back to where they came from? Any significant differences from country to country here?

And here is the one I most want answered: how many came to Europe already speaking the language of the country to which they came?

I have a sneaky feeling you might find a difference here. Just maybe the British Muslims are the less intelligent Muslims of Europe. Maybe most of them came there speaking English. Maybe the Muslims in the rest of Europe did not speak the language of the countries where they settled. Maybe the people not frightened by the prospect of having to learn a new language are the more intelligent ones--and maybe they are also the people more likely to question the received wisdom of the societies from which they came. Or maybe they just attribute the difficulty in getting on in society to their inability to speak the language rather than to prejudice from the natives. Maybe that is not possible if you come to the UK already speaking English, so that you become disillusioned more quickly.

Frankly, this survey raises more questions than it answers. The only thing I really want to do here is to discourage people from taking the path of least intellectual resistance in determining its meaning and implications.
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Post by mourningstar » Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:56 am

I have a sneaky feeling you might find a difference here. Just maybe the British Muslims are the less intelligent Muslims of Europe. Maybe most of them came there speaking English. Maybe the Muslims in the rest of Europe did not speak the language of the countries where they settled. Maybe the people not frightened by the prospect of having to learn a new language are the more intelligent ones--and maybe they are also the people more likely to question the received wisdom of the societies from which they came. Or maybe they just attribute the difficulty in getting on in society to their inability to speak the language rather than to prejudice from the natives. Maybe that is not possible if you come to the UK already speaking English, so that you become disillusioned more quickly.
Yes indeed. those questions ran into my mind also. But i think it's evolving in a more postive way. the people who are against western society are the first,second generation muslim. Those muslims collide with the western society not the younger ones
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Post by lmpower » Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:56 am

Reblem is right about needing a more subtle and in depth analysis of the statistics. I have criticized past surveys for not differentiating between Mexican Americans and newly arrived immigrants.

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Post by paulb » Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:54 pm

mourningstar wrote:[
Yes indeed. those questions ran into my mind also. But i think it's evolving in a more postive way. the people who are against western society are the first,second generation muslim. Those muslims collide with the western society not the younger ones[/quote]

Interesting about the different generations of muslims in europe. can someone help me out in figuring just which generations of muslims are causing the most trouble. Seems al queda members age range from early 20's to mid 40's.
As you know many individuals when subject to forced fed too much religion at strating at a very early age, and continuing through adolescent, then into futher yrs, there is a reaction in the soul. The subdued mind is not given its natural form to develope and one can witness a backlash in certain individuals who explode in a violent behavior.
As you know many arabic children are brought up with the Koran as the central point of their life, it is impressed upon them continually.
Western va;lues are now brought into their attention with mass media and also transmigration into western societies. A terrible clash of values in raised to high pitch levels.
One of the most important main theme in the Koran, is the eschatological belief that a one world religion (Islam) will usher in a mystical state of peace and tranquility for all men, with the material aspect becomming subjected to the far superior spiritual valuation of life.
The book goes on to impress upon the believer that it is his god given right to take whatever steps in order to prepare the way for this one world faith, this is a good muslim. Any opinion or government state that is not in line with this objective must be violently opposed by whatever means is necessary.
"For your reward will be great at your sacrifice, your martydom. You will be richly rewarded in the afterlife with great wealth and many beautiful virgins".
I added in "great wealth" on my own. Does anyone know if in fact the koran does mention wealth as ones reward for crshing the infidels via martydom?
I wouldn't doubt its in there.
Nothing against the islamic religion mind you. Its just a psychological idea that too much religion too early on, can make for difficult adjustments to the world later in life.
and that pent up frustrations is passed on to the children, in the womb and after birth. This kind of early life repression of natural instincts can be seen in the behavior of many militant muslims.
Last edited by paulb on Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Barry » Fri Jun 23, 2006 1:01 pm

mourningstar wrote: ...But i think it's evolving in a more postive way. the people who are against western society are the first,second generation muslim. Those muslims collide with the western society not the younger ones
I don't have the numbers handy, but I've read fairly recently that just the opposite is true. A lot of those who harbor the strongest anti-Western feelings among Europe's Muslims grew up in Europe. Their parents were the ones who moved to Europe and are generally pro-Western. It's the younger generation, the ones in their teens and twenties (maybe into their thirties) that are most involved in or are at least supportive of jihad.

I must have read that either in Clash of Civilizations or one of the Kaplan books I've read in the past year. When I have time, I'll try to find the passage and give the details.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

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http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:37 pm

RebLem wrote:I'd really like to have some stats on another group of related matters to get at why this is so.


I think the Brits still have an insular attitude. Problems are "out there somewhere," not at home, and the government have everything under control. Loftus observed earlier this week that the CIA (that paragon of humint exploitation) told MI6 (foreign intelligence) for years that they were breeding homegrown jihadis. MI6 dismissed the warnings because "England was providing a wonderfully supportive environment for the intergration of Muslims into British society, and anyway they had things well in hand." Apparently MI6 was so embarrassed by the CIA's insistence that they decided not to share any intel with MI5 (domestic intelligence), with the result that MI5 had no idea what was going on until the bombs went off in the underground. We in the west need another attack to wake us up to the extent of our enemies' single-mindedness.
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RebLem
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Post by RebLem » Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:45 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
RebLem wrote:I'd really like to have some stats on another group of related matters to get at why this is so.


We in the west need another attack to wake us up to the extent of our enemies' single-mindedness.
Now, if I'd said that or if Bill Clinton had said that, you would have accused us and the whole Democratic Party of treason. But somehow, you get to follow different rules.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:12 pm

RebLem wrote:
Corlyss_D wrote:
RebLem wrote:I'd really like to have some stats on another group of related matters to get at why this is so.


We in the west need another attack to wake us up to the extent of our enemies' single-mindedness.
Now, if I'd said that or if Bill Clinton had said that, you would have accused us and the whole Democratic Party of treason. But somehow, you get to follow different rules.
Straw men are such fun, aren't they, Reb?

I didn't say "We need to surrender pre-emptively." (Kerry, Murtha, Sheehan, Kucinich, Dean, DailyKos)

Nor did I say "We have to fight everything the president is doing because he, not the murderous Islamofascists, is the REAL enemy." (NYT, WaPo, CIA leakers, Democratic staff leakers)

I recognize that the public is not encouraged to believe that we are in a real war with real stakes until and unless we are hit again with a significant loss of life.
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Post by paulb » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:26 pm

If the issue came down to a court of law : Bush on trial for violating the constutional rights of islam-fascists for free speech and privacy, I'd bet the democrats and their liberals would pack the courthouse sitting as witnesses against Bush.
Their hate is such. btw hate is not among the christian virtues.

EDIT: Man , I just realized that one struck home and it went deep.
Psalm 118:22 The Stone that the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone.
23 This is the Lord's doing , it is marvelous in our sight.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:40 pm

Pew Poll wrote:While finding ample confirmation of the rift between Muslims and non-Muslims around the world, the poll did find some signs of encouragement.

"Confidence in Osama bin Laden has ... fallen in most Muslim countries in recent years," the survey concluded. That was particularly true in Jordan, where 24% expressed confidence in the al-Qaida leader, compared with 60% a year ago.

Support for suicide bombing has also plummeted in Jordan, Pakistan and Indonesia. In Pakistan now, 69% said the terrorist tactic was never justified, compared with 38% four years ago.
This trend has been true ever since last summer when we released Al Zawahari's avuncular letter to Zarqawi in which he cautioned the serial murderer to ease up on killing Muslims for the time being because it was pissing off the target audience. While it is true that the beheadings and the random bombings among Shi'ites were exciting and effective recruiting devices, it was beginning to dawn on the majority of Muslims that unless they subscribed to the particularly fanatical brand of Islam espoused by the Wahabists (and most of them don't), they too would be considered fair game in the jihad because they weren't pure enough. And of course, Zarqawi's war on Jordan, which predates his renown as a warrior of jihad and used to be simple garden variety revolutionary zeal, turned the Jordanians against him big time. They were the conduit by which the intel was transferred to the Americans to terminate him with extreme prejudice.
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Post by RebLem » Fri Jun 23, 2006 9:06 pm

Corlyss_D wrote:
Pew Poll wrote:While finding ample confirmation of the rift between Muslims and non-Muslims around the world, the poll did find some signs of encouragement.

"Confidence in Osama bin Laden has ... fallen in most Muslim countries in recent years," the survey concluded. That was particularly true in Jordan, where 24% expressed confidence in the al-Qaida leader, compared with 60% a year ago.

Support for suicide bombing has also plummeted in Jordan, Pakistan and Indonesia. In Pakistan now, 69% said the terrorist tactic was never justified, compared with 38% four years ago.
Hey, call me nutty, but I really don't find the idea that 31% of the population of Pakistan still approves of terrorist tactics very comforting.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.

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Post by Corlyss_D » Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:03 pm

RebLem wrote:Hey, call me nutty, but I really don't find the idea that 31% of the population of Pakistan still approves of terrorist tactics very comforting.
You think 62% is better?
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