50,000 US Soldiers Dead and Look at The Result!

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Ted

50,000 US Soldiers Dead and Look at The Result!

Post by Ted » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:36 pm

Yet Barry and Corlyss continue to defend US Imperialism Then and Now



The Awakening of Hanoi




Image


The Apricot Gallery.

*
By JENNIFER CONLIN New York Times
Published: February 18, 2007

TO find the Mai Gallery in Hanoi, you must first walk down the bustling avenue of Le Thanh Tong, a street filled with flower stalls, neighborhood shops, sidewalk cafes and the ubiquitous roar of hundreds of motorbikes streaming in the direction of the century-old opera house. As you turn down Phan Huy Chu, one of a maze of narrow alleys in the Old Quarter, the throngs of teenagers leaning against parked mopeds with their cellphones cupped to their ears quickly disappear. Instead, squatting on the sidewalk stirring steaming pots of soup laced with noodles, pork and cilantro, are elderly women, their faces hidden under traditional farm-field conical hats, chatting among themselves as they give you a quick, inquisitive glance.

James Hill for The New York Times

The bar at Restaurant Bobby Chinn.

As I made my way down this passage on a warm morning in late November, I thought about why I had come to Hanoi — to see a country I knew only from history books and vaguely remembered images from the nightly news in the 1970s. The map of Vietnam was like a screen saver on our television set, and the war in Southeast Asia dominated the discussions at the dinner table in the politically active college town of Ann Arbor, Mich.

Thirty years later, I found myself experiencing an enormous disconnect. Hanoi was not at all as I had pictured it. Instead of being a squalid third world capital struggling to recover from years of war and isolation, it was a stylish, European-influenced metropolis with manicured lakeside promenades, tree-lined boulevards, ancient pagodas and French-colonial buildings painted in a peeling palette of jade, turquoise and burgundy.

On the streets, elderly men sipping tea at food stalls and grandmothers balancing poles on their shoulders laden with heavy baskets of fruits and vegetables were outnumbered by representatives of a younger and more boisterous generation. Nearly sixty percent of the population in Vietnam was born after the war ended in 1975, and Hanoi feels like a city of teenagers. They were everywhere — doubled up on motorbikes, their hair streaming behind them like jet spray as they raced off to school or work. At night they gathered in the parks and the city's dance clubs before zooming off again to start a new day.

Two days into my stay in Hanoi, I had made the obligatory visits to Ho Chi Minh's mausoleum (where the body of the still-revered leader lies in state) and the Temple of Literature (once a university, built in 1070) but had also found my time increasingly taken up by visits to the city's art galleries. That's because back in London, where I now live, friends who had been to Hanoi had all come back raving about the art. One showed me her collection of traditional paintings — each a different village scene, Impressionistic in style, painted on wood and then treated and polished with sap from a lacquer tree. They were stunningly luminous, laced with gold and silver gilt as well as crushed eggshell. The effect was like looking at a detailed painting under a thin, still puddle of water.

“Just wait,” my friend said. “You will fall in love with the art there.”

And I had. But while I was fascinated by 20th-century Vietnamese art — a mixture of Eastern techniques (woodcutting, engraving, silk and lacquer painting) with European influences from the early 1900s (Impressionism, Cubism) — I was most taken with the contemporary works by younger artists, many of whom are integrating the traditional into the modern and expressing themselves in new ways that reflect an awareness of what is happening in the Western art world.

THAT'S one reason I was now headed toward the Mai gallery, hoping to meet Tran Phuong Mai, the owner, herself. As I wandered from art gallery to art gallery, her name kept coming up in conversation, as other dealers would describe her — sometimes with a slight roll of the eyes or a faint note of exasperation in their voices — as being among the most prominent figures in their midst, the one who was most adeptly taking advantage of the increased attention contemporary Vietnamese art was attracting in the West. (Well, that was certainly in contrast to one gallery owner I met, who when I happened to mention that Charles Saatchi, the noted British collector, was beginning to feature young Vietnamese on his Web site, said, “Charles Saatchi? Oh, I got an e-mail from him several months ago asking me if he could link my gallery Web site. But I had never heard of him. Is he famous?”)

Young, stylish, attractive and with a close relationship with many of the city's young artists, Mai was beginning to sound like a character I knew well from my days of living in Manhattan in the early 1980s, when New York's downtown art scene was exploding. Could this be the Mary Boone of Hanoi?

Opposite a wall of boldly drawn graffiti in the tiny alleyway was her sleek, modern art gallery. On display inside the stark white space were the colorful urban landscape paintings of Nguyen Bao Ha, an Abstract Expressionist, whose work has been described as depicting the “cancerous” pace at which Vietnam is being developed. There was no one inside, however, except Mai's mother. Her daughter, she explained in her halting English, was at her new art gallery, her second — a sign that business was booming.

When I finally tracked down Mai at the other gallery, a three-story space on less-remote Hang Bong Street, it was clear to me she was a young force — she's 36 — in Hanoi's art world. With a stylish crop of jet black hair and trendily dressed in a hooded red zipper jacket and black skinny jeans, she looked every bit the part of an artist's friend. But she also had the demeanor of an experienced businesswoman. She instructed her assistant to get us a pot of tea, and she invited me to sit while she told me her story.
http://travel.nytimes.com/2007/02/18/tr ... ref=travel
Last edited by Ted on Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ralph
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Post by Ralph » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:42 pm

Ted,

The Vietnam War is over. I hope the Vietnamese enjoy peace and prosperity.
Image

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:52 pm

Um Ralph…This thread is in response to posts by both Barry and Corlyss from a few weeks ago where they both argued that The Viet Nam war was necessary and we should have continued fighting—Corlyss maintains that Washington was spineless for kowtowing to the “Peaceniks” and leaving—As you ca see the “Commies” really played the domino game and took over the world

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:54 pm

You're still learning the wrong lessons, Ted.

This is from one of the twentieth century's greatest leaders, Lee Kuan Yew, who was largely responsible for tranforming Singapore from a backward barely functioning state to one of the great success stories of the second half of the century:

on Iraq and Vietnam:

<<<…The conventional wisdom in the media now is that the war in Iraq is an unmitigated disaster. Conventional wisdom in the 1970s assumed that the war in Vietnam was similarly an unmitigated disaster. It has been proved wrong. It bought the time and created the conditions that enabled non-communist East Asia to follow Japan’s path and develop into the four dragons (South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore), followed by the four tigers (Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines). Time brought about the split between the Soviet Union and China, and that led to China attacking Vietnam when it attacked Cambodia and thus broke the domino effect of communist victory in Vietnam. The four dragons and four tigers in turn changed both communist China and Vietnam into open market economies and made them freer societies. If the unexpected developments of war in Iraq are addressed in a resolute, not a defeatist manner, conventional wisdom, now pessimistic, will again be proved wrong. A stabilised Iraq, less repressive, with its different ethnic and religious communities accepting each other in some devoluted framework, can be a liberating influence in the Middle East.>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Last edited by Barry on Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:56 pm

That wasn’t our intention at the time

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:03 pm

Ted wrote:What a crock
Well I've got your opinion and his. I'll go with him. A guy with his track-record isn't just pulling that stuff out of his ass.

You've got zero concept of what it is to be a great power, Ted. When are you going to make like at least some of your fellow boomers and grow up?
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:09 pm

Ted wrote:That wasn’t our intention at the time
Our intention was to stop more countries from going Communist. When you look at what happened in virtually every country that went Communist, I'd say it was a pretty good aim. And according to Lee, in the longrun, we accomplished that.

But that's besides the point. One of the biggest problem with you lefties is that you place greater importance on intentions than results. You're happier when you can say someone's heart was in the right place, no matter the result, than when someone achieves a result that is hugely beneficial to millions by doing something with a motive that can be termed selfish or less than pure.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:10 pm

As for Iraq (At least Baghdad) it will get more and more unmanageable. And don’t try to turn Britain’s withdrawal from the south into your usual “Bending of the News” 80% of Britain’s voters want out and Blair is making good on his promise to his successor.

Anyway, it's nice artwork don't ya think

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:14 pm

Ted wrote:As for Iraq (At least Baghdad) it will get more and more unmanageable. And don’t try to turn Britain’s withdrawal from the south into your usual “Bending of the News” 80% of Britain’s voters want out and Blair is making good on his promise to his successor.
I'm aware of the views of most of the population of Britain. Would you like to go over some of the other popular views among the people there and whether you think Blair should act on those too (like Chamberlain did)?

I wish he wasn't doing it. He's been as much of a rock as can be expected I suppose until now, and I wish he would hold out longer. But it's his call obviously.
I've said before I wish we could trade Bush for Blair. I greatly admire the man.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ted

Post by Ted » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:17 pm

You've got zero concept of what it is to be a great power, Ted.


I know that thousands of American servicemen and women are dying needlessly—Does that count?

Barry
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Post by Barry » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:21 pm

Ted wrote:You've got zero concept of what it is to be a great power, Ted.


I know that thousands of American servicemen and women are dying needlessly—Does that count?
Barry Z wrote:
Ted wrote:So Barry, you feel this young American’s death was justified just so you can delude yourself into thinking you are somehow safer, and more secure?
More from Imperial Grunts:

<<<The ghost of Vietnam hovered over this debate. The administration didn't want the public to see recurring images of flag-draped coffins, as it had in Vietnam. Many anti-Iraq war people I knew in the Northeast had not served in Vietnam. Embarrassment and guilt over that fact helped facilitate their zero tolerance toward casualties. As for those I met in the military, particularly the noncommissioned officer class, because they and their relatives had paid a considerable price in Vietnam, they were free to think pragmatically about the casualty issue -- ruthlessly, even. Because they were free of complexes, and were closest to the dead and wounded, I trusted their opinion the most.>>>

What you don't get, as usual, Ted, is that most of us who think we need to stay in Iraq believe that if we don't, we're going to suffer many more casualties in the coming years in the wider Middle East and in the worldwide war against jihadists than we will if we see the current mission in Iraq through. Our lack of national will may save a few lives in the immediate future, but cost many more in the slightly more distant years to come, because if we leave now, we'll be back under much worse circumstances.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

Ralph
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Post by Ralph » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:41 pm

Vietnam was a mistake. It was a civil war, not a cohesive part of a communist conspiracy. But we didn't know that then. I certainly didn't. I believed, for quite a while, that we needed to stop the North Vietnamese who were supplying the Viet Cong so we could stabilize the South. We couldn't achieve those objectives without even greater loss of life and even with a military victory of sorts, which was possible, the morass would have spiraled out of control.

Iraq is different. In a short space of time it became evident that any stated reason for invading that country was wrong at best, bogus at worst. "What if?" scenarios can keep us in Iraq for a decade or more. We need to act on what we now know, not on fears projected to keep us involved.
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Ralph
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Post by Ralph » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:43 pm

From infoplease.com:

Vietnam War (1964–1975)
Total servicemembers 8,744,000
Serving in-theater 3,403,000
Battle deaths 47,410
Other deaths in service (theater) 10,789
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 32,000
Nonmortal woundings 153,303
Living veterans 8,295,0001
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"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein

Brendan

Post by Brendan » Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:52 pm

Ralph wrote:Vietnam was a mistake. It was a civil war, not a cohesive part of a communist conspiracy. But we didn't know that then. I certainly didn't. I believed, for quite a while, that we needed to stop the North Vietnamese who were supplying the Viet Cong so we could stabilize the South. We couldn't achieve those objectives without even greater loss of life and even with a military victory of sorts, which was possible, the morass would have spiraled out of control.
Which Communist war/revolution could not be described as a civil war then? That's the way they worked, except when the USSR encompassed Eastern Europe at the end of WWII. Supply revolutionaries arms and fund academic/popular support for Marxism. Worked on many around the globe for many years.

Vietnam - the activism that never ends. At least they had better protest songs back then. I mean, a Grammy for the Dixie Chicks? Is that the best the protesters have these days? :twisted:

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Re: 50,000 US Soldiers Dead and Look at The Result!

Post by Corlyss_D » Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:55 am

Ted wrote:Yet Barry and Corlyss continue to defend US Imperialism Then and Now
The Viet Nam war was never a war of imperialism except in the fevered rhetoric of the extreme left, who did have communist ties and communist support for their effort to stop the war. That's documented and beyond contradiction.

The Iraq war is not a war of imperialism except in the fevered rhetoric of extreme left, many of whom are the exact same people who tried to stop the Viet Nam war. Old habits are hard to break, and it does so let them relive their youth.

The Democrats' cowardice in 1975 led to a bloodbath of genocidal proportions, with millions dead in Cambodia, Laos, and Viet Nam when the communists swept unimpeded into power in the region. That's documented and beyond contradiction. And what are you still doing? Whining about 50,000 dead that would not have died in vain had it not been for the Democrats' cowardice!
Corlyss
Contessa d'EM, a carbon-based life form

Ted

Post by Ted » Wed Feb 21, 2007 7:39 am

CD Wrote:
The Viet Nam war was never a war of imperialism except in the fevered rhetoric of the extreme left,
“Ahh, I love the smell of Corlyss in the morning!”

:wink:

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Post by Stonebraker » Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:12 pm

THIS THREAD DOES NOT DELIVER IN ANY WAY :(

Can't a brotha get a yawn emoticon up in here?
Paul Stonebraker - Promoting orchestral music since '06

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Post by david johnson » Thu Feb 22, 2007 5:14 am

there is no u.s. imperialism.

dj

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Post by Barry » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:44 am

david johnson wrote:there is no u.s. imperialism.

dj
Well there is certainly an American empire, albeit an untraditional one by the standard of empires throughout history. We don't colonize or enslave and we rarely occupy. But we have troops, whether it be in small or large numbers, in countries all over the world. We were thrust unwillingly into the role following World War II (and of course, sooner than that when it comes to the Americas and the Pacific). Most Americans hate the idea of empire and imperialism, which is why we don't behave like past great powers. But our leadership rightly concluded that the alternative to an American empire would be a world that is much worse off generally speaking than it is with an American empire. That still holds true, which is why we won't and shouldn't give up the role of establishing as close to world order, with a system that benefits as many people as possible, as we can get.

The book I just finished reading is all about how our armed forces maintain our modern version of an empire.
"If this is coffee, please bring me some tea; but if this is tea, please bring me some coffee." - Abraham Lincoln

"Although prepared for martyrdom, I preferred that it be postponed." - Winston Churchill

"Before I refuse to take your questions, I have an opening statement." - Ronald Reagan

http://www.davidstuff.com/political/wmdquotes.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pbp0hur ... re=related

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