Why Aren't They Having Babies?

[Cosima__J]

Read this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/beyondbabies

I know this isn't a news flash. Much has already been written about the dearth of babies in developed countries. But I'm wondering what is going on here? As the mother of two sons, it amazes me that so many women would want to forgo the pleasures of raising a family.

Is it selfishness, self-centeredness or are these women just being smart?

[Corlyss_D]

Is it selfishness, self-centeredness or are these women just being smart?

For me it was knowing myself well enough to know better than to undertake such a thing. My lifestyle would not support marriage or children. Neither would my temperment.

[Barry]

For me it was knowing myself well enough to know better than to undertake such a thing. My lifestyle would not support marriage or children. Neither would my temperment.

I obviously got over the marriage hump, but we're still undecided on children, much because, like Corlyss, we also know ourselves and our temperments too well. I feel a sense of duty to have children (or at least one.......I'm in my early 40s now and Maura is in her mid 30s, so more than one or two won't be happening for sure) because of the dangers expressed in this and other articles that address declining western birth rates and the danger that could mean to our way of life in the future. But in spite of feeling the duty, I still don't feel a strong enough desire yet, and I know Maura doesn't either.

[Barry]

Within the past few months I saw a show on C-Span in which Irving Krystol (it was obviously a re-run) made a statement that really enraged me at the time and still strikes me as inappropriate and flat-out wrong. I think it was at a discussion on gay marriage and Krystol said (I'm paraphrasing):
"People who get married and don't have children are wasting their time. They never should have gotten married in the first place."

My immediate thought, one which I haven't changed my mind about actually, was how dare this arsehole tell people who weren't going to have children anyway because they don't want or can't have them that their desire to have a life companion rather than growing old alone is a waste of time. He had no right to call the happiness of married couples with no children illegitimate, which is exactly what he was doing (his tone and look of disgust made that clear).

[Madame]

Within the past few months I saw a show on C-Span in which Irving Krystol (it was obviously a re-run) made a statement that really enraged me at the time and still strikes me as inappropriate and flat-out wrong. I think it was at a discussion on gay marriage and Krystol said (I'm paraphrasing):
"People who get married and don't have children are wasting their time. They never should have gotten married in the first place."

My immediate thought, one which I haven't changed my mind about actually, was how dare this arsehole tell people who weren't going to have children anyway because they don't want them that their desire to have a life companion rather than growing old alone is a waste of time. He had no right to call the happiness of married couples with no children illegitimate, which is exactly what he was doing (his tone and look of disgust made that clear).

You know, Barry, there are a lot of assholes out there who are very busy taking other people's inventory, it keeps them from having to look at themselves. I've learned not to even debate that kind of stuff, rather tell them, you are WAY out of line, it's none of your business. You are not accountable to anyone for your choices.

[Barry]

You know, Barry, there are a lot of assholes out there who are very busy taking other people's inventory, it keeps them from having to look at themselves. I've learned not to even debate that kind of stuff, rather tell them, you are WAY out of line, it's none of your business. You are not accountable to anyone for your choices.

Thanks Madame. And I may actually still have kids. I've only been married for two months now. But when I heard that statement by Krystol, my thoughts actually turned to an older relative of mine (he's in his 60s) who has been happily married for for almost 40 years, but has never had children, probably for emotional reasons related to his personal history (I won't go into more detail than that). I couldn't help but think how much better his life has been because he has had his wife as his companion all these years.

I realize that our society needs to reproduce in order to thrive. But some people just aren't going to have kids for a variety of reasons, not all of which are related to selfishness, and their love and bond with their spouses shouldn't be looked down upon because they remained childless.

[Madame]

Read this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/beyondbabies

I know this isn't a news flash. Much has already been written about the dearth of babies in developed countries. But I'm wondering what is going on here? As the mother of two sons, it amazes me that so many women would want to forgo the pleasures of raising a family.

Is it selfishness, self-centeredness or are these women just being smart?

Do you really think it's the women who are making these choices?

I think having a child for reasons other than that child's well-being is the selfish choice. I think recognizing one's limitations and opting not to have children is the unselfish choice.

My kids are now in their 40's, and neither of them plans to have children, and you know what? I'm glad. Not because of them. Because I would hate to bring children into this crazy world today. And in my kids' cases, as my daughter so wisely pointed out, it would be a genetic crap shoot. Three generations of alcoholism and other dysfunction is enough!

[jbuck919]

Anyone ever heard of Abraham Maslow? A psychologist of the early 20th century who had a few good ideas, and I don't usually say that about people who are presented in educational psychology courses and have no empirical verification for their theories.

According to Maslow's famous hierarchy of needs, people have needs up to the cognitive/aeshtetic level. For most people in the world traditionally, their only hope of cognitive/aesthetic satisfaction was through their children. As other possibilitieis approach, they have less immediate need of a proliferation of the children.

(Maslow, a practicing clinical psychologist, also offered the following insight: "In my experience I have never, without exception, met a happy person who was not motivated by something or someone beyond himself.")

[Ralph]

Read this article:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ucmg/beyondbabies

I know this isn't a news flash. Much has already been written about the dearth of babies in developed countries. But I'm wondering what is going on here? As the mother of two sons, it amazes me that so many women would want to forgo the pleasures of raising a family.

Is it selfishness, self-centeredness or are these women just being smart?

*****

Cosima,

How about my usual fourth choice on multiple-guess exam questions: None of the Above?

How about "Freedom of Choice" as the answer for many. I know many women who simply do not want to be mothers and may well feel they lack the instinct to raise and care for children. Few, if any, of these women hate kids. While there are some professionals (including divas like Sharon Sweet or pianist Michiko Uchida or the late Elizabeth Schwarzkopf) who frankly state that their careers come first and there's no room for kids, most women who don't have children arrive less directly at that choice.

One close friend of mine is a law school graduate with a highly paid, extremely responsible corporate career. She's happily married to a man with two young sons from a previous marriage. She's never felt any impulse to bear children herself and she's content to spend some time with his boys when they visit.

Stereotyping is dangerous. Women are biologically primed to bear children but are not necessarily psychologically and socially so inclined. Given the number of unwanted children I especially respect women who elect to be "child free," not "childless."

[Ralph]

Is it selfishness, self-centeredness or are these women just being smart?

For me it was knowing myself well enough to know better than to undertake such a thing. My lifestyle would not support marriage or children. Neither would my temperment.

*****

And can you imagine if a Little Corlyss could participate on CMG? ? There goes the neighborhood!

[Ralph]

Anyone ever heard of Abraham Maslow? A psychologist of the early 20th century who had a few good ideas, and I don't usually say that about people who are presented in educational psychology courses and have no empirical verification for their theories.

According to Maslow's famous hierarchy of needs, people have needs up to the cognitive/aeshtetic level. For most people in the world traditionally, their only hope of cognitive/aesthetic satisfaction was through their children. As other possibilitieis approach, they have less immediate need of a proliferation of the children.

(Maslow, a practicing clinical psychologist, also offered the following insight: "In my experience I have never, without exception, met a happy person who was not motivated by something or someone beyond himself.")

*****

What would Maslow have said about the reaction of the plumber who left here a half-hour ago after fixing my toilet which blew up at 5AM: "You need all these books and CDs, sir?"

[Cosima__J]

I know it sounded like I was casting aspersions on women who choose not to have children and I apologize for that. It's just that family life, raising children and dealing with all of the joys and the frustrations involved are important to me.

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

[Ralph]

I know it sounded like I was casting aspersions on women who choose not to have children and I apologize for that. It's just that family life, raising children and dealing with all of the joys and the frustrations involved are important to me.

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

*****

I'd couch the question as to whether ideas of freedom, democracy, decency and justice will triumph. I would not indict an entire religion. That's the canard used against the Jews for centuries.

[Cosima__J]

Yes Ralph, perhaps I was making an overgeneralization to castigate ALL Muslims. Muslim Turkey has had a secular democracy. Totalitarian regimes like North Korea and China don't have any significant Muslim populations (well China has some). But on the other hand, where do most terrorists come from? From majority Muslim countries or from within the Muslim community in western democratic countries. Western democratic rule of law versus Muslim sharia. Come on western women. Let's start having more babies!

[Corlyss_D]

I know it sounded like I was casting aspersions on women who choose not to have children and I apologize for that. It's just that family life, raising children and dealing with all of the joys and the frustrations involved are important to me.

No worry here, Cos. I've been rebuked a few times on account of my "selfishness" in not having kids. My choice is no more selfish than that of people who think having kids is important or necessary. I have never understood why my choice is "selfish" but theirs is not.

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society.

Hey! That betterment of society stuff is a philosophical construct, not a reason to screw up my particular life royally. It may be true, but it's noticed only in retrospect.

If the West cannot transfer its values to the non-western world, then maybe they aren't universal values after all and don't deserve to be transferred. I can look at the worthy consequences of western values and say with all confidence, Western values are indeed universal values because they represent freedom, freedom of individuals, freedom of groups and societies, freedom of nations. It is the most precious value we can bestow on the entire human race. But spiritual etiquette requires that other peoples recognize the worth of freedom or it is all for naught.

[Ralph]

Yes Ralph, perhaps I was making an overgeneralization to castigate ALL Muslims. Muslim Turkey has had a secular democracy. Totalitarian regimes like North Korea and China don't have any significant Muslim populations (well China has some). But on the other hand, where do most terrorists come from? From majority Muslim countries or from within the Muslim community in western democratic countries. Western democratic rule of law versus Muslim sharia. Come on western women. Let's start having more babies!

*****

It's simply not going to happen. Upper Middle Class and professional couples in Cairo and Tehran, to name just two cities, don't have many children. Ultra-Orthodox Jews do. Virtually all other Jews practice birth control.

High birth rates are never tied to affluence in the age of safe and effective contraception.

[Madame]

I know it sounded like I was casting aspersions on women who choose not to have children and I apologize for that. It's just that family life, raising children and dealing with all of the joys and the frustrations involved are important to me.

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

Or how 'bout we take care of the ones we have now, the ones who through no fault of their own are falling through the cracks?


5. Actualization
4. Status (esteem)
3. Love/belonging
2. Safety
1. Physiological (biological needs)

John brought up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, an excellent model for discussion. The basic concept is that the higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the needs that are lower down in the pyramid are mainly or entirely satisfied. Growth forces create upward movement in the hierarchy, whereas regressive forces push prepotent needs further down the hierarchy.

The skid row missions have a saying -- you can't preach to a man with an empty stomach.

[RebLem]

Actually, the societies that are likely to survive in such an environment are ones like ourselves who have a history of accepting immigrants and integrating them well into the society and getting them to accept the prevailing social and political values. The people who are screwing things up, at least here, are science denying, freedom of religion denying people whose ancestors have been here for many generations who would rather burn the Constitution to avoid "desecrating" (the very word is illegitmate in this context) the flag.

[jbuck919]

I realize that prevailing economic wisdom is that depopulation is death, but I have never believed it. That seems to me to be right up there with Bentham's prediction that exponential population growth would inevitably lead to mass starvation. Depopulating Europe is doing just fine, if you use a criterion of general health and not a picky one like whether they have a ten percent or nine percent unemployment rate.

[Teresa B]

I know it sounded like I was casting aspersions on women who choose not to have children and I apologize for that. It's just that family life, raising children and dealing with all of the joys and the frustrations involved are important to me.

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

I completely agree that having children is an individual decision, and there are good reasons for deciding not to. As the mother of one 20-year-old son (wanted two kids, but physical reasons prevented it), I can attest to the joys and the heartache that accompany parenthood.

One BIG reason we have kids is not exactly selfish, but perhaps self-serving in the same way "selfish genes" are self-serving. There is a physical/emotional compulsion to reproduce. Thus people (esp. women) have an almost irresistible need to nurture offspring. Obviously this is something that varies in different folks, and can be overcome by reason--thus a rational decision not to have children.

I think it's probably futile to think one is going to make the decision based totally on whether he/she ought to bring a kid into the cold cruel world, and it's the height of arrogance to assume one ought to reproduce one's own genes so that the world doesn't get overrun with "inferiors" (Eugenics bad).

It's a very personal decision based on a lot of conscious and unconscious desires and drives. My advice ( ) to folks like Barry is not to think "gosh, we'd better hurry up" but have a really honest discussion with your spouse and find out what the deepest desires and wishes are for both of you, and take it from there.

Sincerely,
Dear Abby--I mean, Teresa

[mourningstar]

alot of teenage girls are adrift. And those male youngsters are plain discerning

[Barry]

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

That's why I have a competing sense of duty to have children in spite of not genuinely being eager to have them, at least at this point.

[jbuck919]

It also seems important that intelligent people with so much to offer children ought to consider contributing their genes for the betterment of society. Is the Western, free, democratic world going to die out in favor of the more prolific Muslim countries with their hatreds and anti-liberal ways?

That's why I have a competing sense of duty to have children in spite of not genuinely being eager to have them, at least at this point.

I felt the same way once. I just went to a sperm bank.

[Barry]

I felt the same way once. I just went to a sperm bank.

[paulb]

1/2 the world's population lives in 3rd world countries, where one can see huge masses of people roaming the streets within the cities. Its really sad. They look miserable and dejected.
Some countries havea living community inside the city's garbage dump.
The slightest natural disaster sees thousands dead.

I think our most important concern is not a declining population , but how we can manage the over population we have right now.
Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

[jbuck919]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

That does strike me as where most of them would probably belong.

[mourningstar]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

That does strike me as where most of them would probably belong.

the propensity to forget the most important stimulus for this high birth rate is merely a lack of education.

just give them education.. that's the answer. there is absolutley no other (pacifistic) answer

[jbuck919]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

That does strike me as where most of them would probably belong.

the propensity to forget the most important stimulus for this high birth rate is merely a lack of education.

just give them education.. that's the answer. there is absolutley no other (pacifistic) answer

Yes, and we'll begin by teaching them that in all Germanic languages the first letter of a sentence is capitalized.

[mourningstar]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

That does strike me as where most of them would probably belong.

the propensity to forget the most important stimulus for this high birth rate is merely a lack of education.

just give them education.. that's the answer. there is absolutley no other (pacifistic) answer

Yes, and we'll begin by teaching them that in all Germanic languages the first letter of a sentence is capitalized.

LOL.. That's why i never got any high grades for German. Every damn word is capitalized.

[Corlyss_D]

1/2 the world's population lives in 3rd world countries, where one can see huge masses of people roaming the streets within the cities.

And they are all headed to the West.

[Ralph]

1/2 the world's population lives in 3rd world countries, where one can see huge masses of people roaming the streets within the cities.

And they are all headed to the West.

*****

Including Utah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Corlyss_D]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

Why? The UN doesn't actually DO anything except provide sanctuary for beleaguered tyrants and an operational center for nations that believe American hyperpower is the greatest danger to peace, aka the status quo, which the UN bureaucracy is so good at profiting from.

[jbuck919]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

Why? The UN doesn't actually DO anything except provide sanctuary for beleaguered tyrants and an operational center for nations that believe American hyperpower is the greatest danger to peace, aka the status quo, which the UN bureaucracy is so good at profiting from.

Well, there goes my post of the day award.

[Ralph]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

Why? The UN doesn't actually DO anything except provide sanctuary for beleaguered tyrants and an operational center for nations that believe American hyperpower is the greatest danger to peace, aka the status quo, which the UN bureaucracy is so good at profiting from.

Well, there goes my post of the day award.

*****

As the movie title proclaims. "There's always tomorrow."

[paulb]

Any ideas?
If yes, send them immediaetly to the UN.

Why? The UN doesn't actually DO anything except provide sanctuary for beleaguered tyrants and an operational center for nations that believe American hyperpower is the greatest danger to peace, aka the status quo, which the UN bureaucracy is so good at profiting from.

Corlyss go ahead and give your post the award of the day

[Corlyss_D]

Including Utah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not until they, particularly the subSaharan Africans, flood Spain, Italy, France, England, etc. first. People who are coming here in droves are Californians.

One of the reasons we foster open trade, transparent government, etc., particularly in Latin America, is so the natives will stay there. We in the Western hemisphere have a good head start because many of the South American states have made great economic improvements over the last 30 years. When the people have economic opportunity, they stay where they are en masse. The Africans, on the other hand, are in collapse everywhere you look except South Africa and it is only going to get worse because the Chinese are meddling there and the current state of things suits them to a T. If there is not chaos in a country, the Chinese will soon introduce it.

Europe I'm afraid is doomed because they have no way to successfully interdict the disorienting numbers of people flooding into Europe. The liberal immigration policies instituted after WW 2 as a way of repudiating the Nazi restrictions have delivered a social and governmental catastrophe to the continent.

[Corlyss_D]

Corlyss go ahead and give your post the award of the day

Thank you, Paul, but management is ineligible. Besides, I already gave it to Reb. But thanks anyway.

[Ralph]

Corlyss go ahead and give your post the award of the day

Thank you, Paul, but management is ineligible. Besides, I already gave it to Reb. But thanks anyway.

*****

She's so selfless.

[Madame]

Corlyss go ahead and give your post the award of the day

Thank you, Paul, but management is ineligible. Besides, I already gave it to Reb. But thanks anyway.

*****

She's so selfless.

Which is exactly WHY she should give the world a mini-Corlyss

I've been thinking about this, envisioning ... on her way to afternoon day care, listening to "EM for Kids" through a headset, cats and dogs at her feet, pulling a little red wagon decorated with GOP and I Love Newt stickers and filled with her favorite books, CD's, and fine writing instruments for "show and tell". Tugs at my heartstrings.

[paulb]

When i was in my mom's womb i wish she had played all Mozart for the 9 months. night and day, all Mozart. Mini speakers right on her stomach.

[Madame]

When i was in my mom's womb i wish she had played all Mozart for the 9 months. night and day, all Mozart. Mini speakers right on her stomach.

I am SO impressed -- that you already knew enough about those things while you were in the womb, from conception to birth, to wish for them.

[Ralph]

If mom had played Dittersdorf, who knows what future would have been in store!!!!!!!!

[living_stradivarius]

When i was in my mom's womb i wish she had played all Mozart for the 9 months. night and day, all Mozart. Mini speakers right on her stomach.

Do you love Mozart or hate it?

[mourningstar]

If mom had played Dittersdorf, who knows what future would have been in store!!!!!!!!

Yeah, i wonder too, .. No one can beat dittersdorf symfonies

[Corlyss_D]

She's so selfless.

Which is exactly WHY she should give the world a mini-Corlyss

To both of you.

[Ralph]

She's so selfless.

Which is exactly WHY she should give the world a mini-Corlyss

To both of you.

*****

You can still adopt. Maybe a nice Palestinian baby?

[Corlyss_D]

You can still adopt. Maybe a nice Palestinian baby?

[Madame]

You can still adopt. Maybe a nice Palestinian baby?

Can we take it that it's a yes? Think of the love and adulation from the leaders of the Arab world, you took in one (or more?) of their desperate, starving, innocent children and gave him/her a chance at the good life.

[jbuck919]

Plus a new member for the National Rifle Association.

[lmpower]

I suspect many young women are cautious about wanting children, because they realize how hard it is to find a good, reliable man. They rightly shrink from being a single mother. That is a hard fate. I recall seeing a beautiful, young woman at the obstetrician's office saying "I don't like children; I don't even like my own children." I also observe parents in the supermarket and elsewhere who actually seem to hate their children. Raising children is a great challenge, but I consider it to be highly educational experience for the parents. You have missed something if you haven't tried it, but then one can't do everything. I do share Cosima's concern about the future of Western Civilization. Religious fundamentalists are the surest proof of Darwin's theory. Darwin asserted that the individual or group which raises the most offspring to maturity wins the game. Do you think Darwin would bet on Islam or Europe.