The most important concerts and symphonies from the classica
The most important concerts and symphonies from the classica
l era?
List 'em up people!
List 'em up people!
All right, Arnstein, but first I've got to understand the parameters. Your post subject is about the "classical era" and your avatar of Shostakovich is clearly pointing to the "modern era." Would you clarify? Is this post about the most important concertos and symphonies between 1730 and 1820, grosso modo?
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)
-
- Military Band Specialist
- Posts: 26856
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:15 pm
- Location: Stony Creek, New York
Welcome to the board! You have asked, as I am sure you are aware, a very basic question. The problem with such questions is that they eventually elicit every work in the genres mentioned that has any musical merit at all, as well as a few that don't. I learned that lesson long ago and then temporarily forgot it when I got exactly that result from a thread I started on violin concertos. So perhaps you could narrow things down a bit.
There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself.
-- Johann Sebastian Bach
I've always thought the classical era was between 1760 and 1820. I mean the concertos and symphonies that had the most influence to later classical work, and the concertos and symphonies that showed that a new era had begun, and that the baroque era was over.
My signature picture has nothing to do with the topic.
My signature picture has nothing to do with the topic.
Actually, he asks a legitimate and answerable question. "The Best" classical period work(s) is unanswerable, but a collection of works that are the most important to later generations in terms of their influence is objectively answerable, albeit debatable.walboi wrote:Why the constant need to single out composers as the best or better.
You either like the music or not.
Better not put labels to every composers, in terms of quality.
There is not most important.
Music there is, but not to be divided by subjective opinions.
I don't want people to write what their favourite symphonies from the classical era is. I want them to write the symphonies and concerts that was the first signs of the classical era, and the symphonies that helped to take it a step further(like Haydns symphony number 94 - the first one with a trumpet). It seems impossible to get a good answer here.
I recommend this Wikipedia periodization. It has the merit of leaving room for a pretty substantial transition period between the Baroque and the Classical periods, pointing, for example, to Domenico Scarlatti as a transitional composer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_ ... 30-1760.29Arnstein wrote:I don't want people to write what their favourite symphonies from the classical era is. I want them to write the symphonies and concerts that was the first signs of the classical era, and the symphonies that helped to take it a step further(like Haydns symphony number 94 - the first one with a trumpet). It seems impossible to get a good answer here.
Aren't Haydn's symphonies a perfect illustration of the reasons why there is no particular work heralding the Classical era? I tend to view his symphonies as a steady progression into a more developed and sophisticated classical music.
Welcome to the board and sorry that it took a while to figure out the core of the original question.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)
But, Arnstein, what is a "typical" sonata-form symphony? Is it this one:
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/m345/haydn_mili ... ny100.html
I sense that you are looking more for a confirmation than for a much more diversified transitional phenomenon.
http://trumpet.sdsu.edu/m345/haydn_mili ... ny100.html
I sense that you are looking more for a confirmation than for a much more diversified transitional phenomenon.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)
-
- Posts: 9114
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:06 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA 87112, 2 blocks west of the Breaking Bad carwash.
- Contact:
I am not sure Arnstein meant "best." Perhaps a better question would be, "In beginning to explore this period, what 10, 15, 20, 30 (pick a number) works should I start with?
Is that what you had in mind, Arnstein?
Is that what you had in mind, Arnstein?
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.
No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically? What was the first signs of the classical era? What added new instruments? etc.
Yes, Piston, that is the typical symphony-form. Haydn used that for all of his later symphonies, I just don't know when he started using that form.
Yes, Piston, that is the typical symphony-form. Haydn used that for all of his later symphonies, I just don't know when he started using that form.
It’s impossible to talk in absolute terms about the “most important concert and symphonies” of any particular era. I doubt that there was a seismic shift between the baroque and classical eras – it seemed to be more of a gradual progression. I think that the transition between the classical and romantic eras is more pronounced – “classical” music was never the same after Beethoven’s 3rd symphony.
-
- Posts: 9114
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 1:06 pm
- Location: Albuquerque, NM, USA 87112, 2 blocks west of the Breaking Bad carwash.
- Contact:
If I had to pick one set of works, it would not be concerti or symphonies, but string quartets. The first modern string quartets were Haydn's 6 Opus 20 Quartets. Haydn developed the form of the modern string quartet and the modern symphony; Mozart, the piano concerto. And, then, too, there are some cello concerti by C.P.E. Bach that are of some importance.
Don't drink and drive. You might spill it.--J. Eugene Baker, aka my late father
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.
"We're not generating enough angry white guys to stay in business for the long term."--Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S. Carolina.
"Racism is America's Original Sin."--Francis Cardinal George, former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Chicago.
The four movement symphony comes from the Mannheim School. Haydn's are the earliest works that are commonly played, but he did not invent the form.Arnstein wrote:RebLem: good to see that some people answer to the topic, instead of arguing about mistaken ideas. I thought the people here were grown ups!
Haydn did develop the form for the modern symphony and string quartet. Do you know when this form was first used?
http://www.dorak.info/music/symphony.htmlGM Monn's symphony in D major (1740) is a remarkable composition in the history of the symphony. The movements are Allegro, Aria, Minuet, Allegro all in the same key. The winds are used independently
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
It depends enturely on how one defines importance here.Arnstein wrote:No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically?
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Thanks, I didn't know this! I thought that Haydn was trying out different forms, and then he found one that he wanted to go with. Thanks for the info!BWV 1080 wrote:The four movement symphony comes from the Mannheim School. Haydn's are the earliest works that are commonly played, but he did not invent the form.Arnstein wrote:RebLem: good to see that some people answer to the topic, instead of arguing about mistaken ideas. I thought the people here were grown ups!
Haydn did develop the form for the modern symphony and string quartet. Do you know when this form was first used?
http://www.dorak.info/music/symphony.htmlGM Monn's symphony in D major (1740) is a remarkable composition in the history of the symphony. The movements are Allegro, Aria, Minuet, Allegro all in the same key. The winds are used independently
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
The standard in what way?Arnstein wrote:Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
Only one standard? Why, or why not?
What's "a step further," and why?
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.Arnstein wrote:Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.karlhenning wrote:Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.walboi wrote:You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.Arnstein wrote:Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.karlhenning wrote:Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.
Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.walboi wrote:You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.Arnstein wrote:Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.karlhenning wrote:Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.
You are such a rash person and have yet to learn a lot in life.
You behave like a drill sergeant my boy!
So did the third son of the second mother, but he still ate breakfast.walboi wrote:Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.walboi wrote:You are certainly not a polite person, that thinks that he has to offend other people by miss understanding them.Arnstein wrote:Why do you repeat what I said? Please don't be off-topic.karlhenning wrote:Come, bring away the plaintiffs: by this time our
sexton hath reformed Signior Leonato of the matter:
and, masters, do not forget to specify, when time
and place shall serve, that I am an ass.
Admin: Please delete all my posts and my account. I see no point in being here when no-one answers to questions.
You are such a rash person and have yet to learn a lot in life.
You behave like a drill sergeant my boy!
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Well, you mustn't let that deprive you of your cool, Arnstein.Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.
But the fact is, I gave you a good answer: the notion of relative importance of artworks is not an easy matter of a few bullet-points.
You're calling anyone an ass over it, does not speak well of you. But I do not hold it against you.
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
You were more interested in trying not to understand what I meant, than to try to understand it. I don't need this, I'm the genius here.karlhenning wrote:Well, you mustn't let that deprive you of your cool, Arnstein.Arnstein wrote:I'm just pissed off because it's impossible to get a good answer on this forum.
But the fact is, I gave you a good answer: the notion of relative importance of artworks is not an easy matter of a few bullet-points.
You're calling anyone an ass over it, does not speak well of you. But I do not hold it against you.
Cheers,
~Karl
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
No, it is I who must be the judge of what I am interested in, or more interested in.Arnstein wrote:You were more interested in trying not to understand what I meant, than to try to understand it.
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
karlhenning wrote:It depends enturely on how one defines importance here.Arnstein wrote:No, I meant what are the most important concert and symphony, historically?
Cheers,
~Karl
....karlhenning wrote:The standard in what way?Arnstein wrote:Important as in concerti and symphonies that sat the standard, and concerti and symphonies that took it a step further.
Only one standard? Why, or why not?
What's "a step further," and why?
Cheers,
~Karl
I hope I get all my posts and account deleted soon. It is a good thing; from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing, instead of wasting time on a forum where people want to argue about excrement instead of having interesting discussions about classical music. Maybe you should do the same Karl? 2300posts? ouch!
Arnstein, I wonder whether you came on to this board to pick fights or to say anything of value.
I certainly see nothing of value in anything you've said to date, except to argue with people who have contributed more than you have to date.
So as of now, if you withdraw all your posts, I won't object.
I certainly see nothing of value in anything you've said to date, except to argue with people who have contributed more than you have to date.
So as of now, if you withdraw all your posts, I won't object.
Werner Isler
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
For my part, Arnstein, I apologize for misspelling entirely.Arnstein wrote:Maybe you should do the same Karl?
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
What are you composing now, Arnstein?Arnstein wrote:from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.karlhenning wrote:What are you composing now, Arnstein?Arnstein wrote:from now on I will only focus on pianoplaying and composing
Cheers,
~Karl
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
New notation system with all three pieces, or just (say) the piano work? Have you worked much with players whom you've asked to learn unconventional notation? (OTOH, you're a pianist yourself, right?)Arnstein wrote:A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.
How many movements for the quartet and the symphony? What makeup of the orchestra for the latter?
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.karlhenning wrote:New notation system with all three pieces, or just (say) the piano work? Have you worked much with players whom you've asked to learn unconventional notation?Arnstein wrote:A string quartet, a symphony and a piano work. I don't work much on the string quartet as I have a tendency to mix ideas if I work with several things at one time. I'm also experimenting with a notation-system that haven't been used in western classical music before. I'm not done with it yet though. Thanks for asking.
How many movements for the quartet and the symphony? What makeup of the orchestra for the latter?
Cheers,
~Karl
4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses
I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Very interesting. Do you really want an alto trombone, or will the player simply use the standard tenor? I don't think I've ever seen an alto trombone, but my not having seen one is certainly inconclusive :-)Arnstein wrote:The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.
4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses
I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
The contrabassoon is a great instrument; one number in my ballet is an invention for two bassoons and contrabassoon, with occasional commentary from the harp.
Have you written anything for clarinet solo?
Cheers,
~Karl
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
I want an alto trombone. I have spoken to a guy who had one.karlhenning wrote:Very interesting. Do you really want an alto trombone, or will the player simply use the standard tenor? I don't think I've ever seen an alto trombone, but my not having seen one is certainly inconclusiveArnstein wrote:The compositions do not use the new notation-system. I have only started to try it out. I can tell you more about it later. I have spoken with peoples from several orchestras and they say that for some instruments it will be impossible to do, but with instruments as the violin it can be done, so I have to think about it. I have to think it through.
4 movements on both. My english isn't that good, but do you mean 'what instruments' by 'makeup'? In that case:
2 flutes
2 oboes
2 clarinets
2 bassoons
4 horns
2 trumpets
alto trombone
tenor trombone
bass trombone
timpani
cymbals
violins I and II
violas
cellos
basses
I am thinking about adding a contrabassoon as I got really fascinated by this instrument when I heard a contrabassoonist play.
The contrabassoon is a great instrument; one number in my ballet is an invention for two bassoons and contrabassoon, with occasional commentary from the harp.
Have you written anything for clarinet solo?
Cheers,
~Karl
Yes, the contrabassoon is great.
I haven't written anything for clarinet solo as I'm not really too fond of that instrument. But maybe I will try one day? Several years ago, when I played stand-in(is that the right words?) piano for a jazz-band it was an amazing clarinetist there though, and he played solo, but that was improvisation, and I really had nothing to do with it.
-
- Composer-in-Residence
- Posts: 9812
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 11:12 am
- Location: Boston, MA
- Contact:
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
http://www.luxnova.com/
Trumpet concerti (and similar pieces, like sonatas) were hugely popular in the Baroque period – there were thousands of the things written by composers like, Vivaldi. Corelli, Albinoni, Torelli, Marcello, Telemann, etc, etc; which all pre-date the classical era.Arnstein wrote:To answer my own question:
I think that Mozarts clarinettconcerto and Haydns trumpetconcerto are very important, as they both are soloconcerti for instruments that was new in the classical era.
The clarinet developed from an instrument known as the chalumeau, the instrument didn’t develop into what we would now identify as a clarinet until the mid 18th century, so specific works for clarinet can only occur in the classical era or later. Nonetheless, concerti for woodwind instruments and orchestra were very popular in the baroque period; many of the composers previously mentioned in this post wrote such works for, oboe, bassoon and flute.
The concerto for solo, brass or woodwind instrument and orchestra was not a development of the classical era.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests