God's Retribution Was Severe

[Barry]

Jerry Falwell has died, undoubtedly leaving a sense of satisfaction with the loved ones of the many whose deaths he said was deserved as retribution for their sinful behavior; the 9/11 victims being the first to come to mind.

Pat Robertson may want to watch his back for a while.

[Ralph]

I take no pleasure in Falwell's death as I derived none from his life.

[Barry]

I take no pleasure in Falwell's death as I derived none from his life.

While I didn't wish any suffering on him, I am not ashamed to say I think the world is a better place without him.

[pizza]

Jerry Falwell has died, undoubtedly leaving a sense of satisfaction with the loved ones of the many whose deaths he said was deserved as retribution for their sinful behavior; the 9/11 victims being the first to come to mind.

One stupid remark -- for which he publicly apologized -- isn't the sum total of a man's life. He helped elect Reagan to both presidential terms and if he had done nothing else, he will most certainly get credit for that.

Too bad he turned down an offer to play for the St. Louis Cardinals when he was a youngster!

[Barry]

Too bad it wasn't only one stupid remark.
If there really is a God, something I remain skeptical of, I hope he or she is giving a stern lecture to Jerry right about now.

[pizza]

Too bad it wasn't only one stupid remark.
If there really is a God, something I remain skeptical of, I hope he or she is giving a stern lecture to Jerry right about now.

There you go again! If God is giving him a lecture, Ronnie is at his side telling God to go easy on him.

[living_stradivarius]

There you go again! If God is giving him a lecture, Ronnie is at his side telling God to go easy on him.

You don't lose Alzheimer's in the afterlife do you?

[pizza]

There you go again! If God is giving him a lecture, Ronnie is at his side telling God to go easy on him.

You don't lose Alzheimer's in the afterlife do you?

Probably you do. If you don't know where you are when you get there, what's the point of going?

[Barry]

Too bad it wasn't only one stupid remark.
If there really is a God, something I remain skeptical of, I hope he or she is giving a stern lecture to Jerry right about now.

There you go again! If God is giving him a lecture, Ronnie is at his side telling God to go easy on him.

Well I only said a lecture. I'm sure the big guy could cause a lot more trouble for Jerry than that!

[JackC]

He was a leader of the politically active religious right that I never felt comfortable with, and he made a lot of stupid remarks. But I also didn't view him as any sort of evil force as some like to characterize him.

I feel very uneasy about saying things like "the world is better place without him."

The Pope also makes lot of silly remarks it seems to me, and has some positions on homosexuality, birth control and abortion that are every bit as conservative as Falwell's. Are we prepared to say the world would be better off without him as well?

[Donald Isler]

Oh, Reagan is up there?

Hmmmmmmmmmm....................Maybe God has Alzheimer's.

[Haydnseek]

Well, as for incurring severe retribution, he met the average life expectancy for an American male and went quickly after enjoying his morning - not so bad, especially for a man with heart ailments. He was clownish and many of us didn't agree with him but I doubt he was a bad man and he worked for the things he believed in through the democratic process which he apparently respected unlike religio-political figures in other countries.

[Barry]

I'd like to think that one who believes we're all sinners should be a little less zealous in selecting out certain members of society as the worst of sinners; no matter how inappropriate the timing (a simple Google search for his quotes confirms this).

[Proton]

Jerry Falwell has died, undoubtedly leaving a sense of satisfaction with the loved ones of the many whose deaths he said was deserved as retribution for their sinful behavior; the 9/11 victims being the first to come to mind.

Pat Robertson may want to watch his back for a while.

Unwise to speak ill of the dead.

That said, Pat Robertson is in a different league altogether, what with his tidy Blood Diamond operations.

[Barry]

Unwise to speak ill of the dead.

I usually agree with you on that. But when the dead spent his life making a point to speak ill of others for doing what he himself did (sinned......or so he believed), I have no problem making an exception (especially when I don't think those people sinned in the first place).

[RebLem]

His "university" teaches against evolution. They have an anti-evolution museum there. And if you want to know what's wrong with that, ask an oil company sometime if they would hire a geologist who believed the earth was 6000 years old, and who was totally ignorant of the consensus view to the contrary.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why Arbusto Corp never found any oil or gas.

[living_stradivarius]

Unwise to speak ill of the dead.

Falwell apparently didn't mind doing so himself.


Nice of you to make your first post on this topic by the way ;);)

[Proton]

Unwise to speak ill of the dead.

I usually agree with you on that. But when the dead spent his life making a point to speak ill of others for doing what he himself did (sinned......or so he believed), I have no problem making an exception (especially when I don't think those people sinned in the first place).

My apologies for being unclear. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else on this thread had done so. He was what he was and you have captured some of his greatest hits.

What I meant to imply with those 7 words was that I had nothing positive to write about the man. I don't mourn him, nor do I celebrate his death.

[Proton]

Unwise to speak ill of the dead.

Falwell apparently didn't mind doing so himself.

Nice of you to make your first post on this topic by the way ;);)

Glad to oblige. Hope he's happy back home.

[Barry]

My apologies for being unclear. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else on this thread had done so. He was what he was and you have captured some of his greatest hits.

What I meant to imply with those 7 words was that I had nothing positive to write about the man. I don't mourn him, nor do I celebrate his death.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Is this the same Proton that used to post on our various classical boards?

[Proton]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. Is this the same Proton that used to post on our various classical boards?

No problem, Barry. Oui, c'est moi! Good to "see" you again.

On topic, you might recall a thread ("American Taliban") I started on one of those long-defunct boards, in response to Falwell's hateful remarks regarding the atrocities (which I witnessed on the ground) that had taken place just 2 days earlier.

I still recall that several posters reacted with absolute disbelief that such comments were made and that somehow I had taken the remarks out of context. So it went.

[Corlyss_D]

On topic, you might recall a thread ("American Taliban") I started on one of those long-defunct boards, in response to Falwell's hateful remarks

Hyperbole at best. Extremely ignorant or sloppy thought-processes at worst. What's next? Bush=Hitler?

[Barry]

On topic, you might recall a thread ("American Taliban") I started on one of those long-defunct boards, in response to Falwell's hateful remarks

Hyperbole at best. Extremely ignorant or sloppy thought-processes at worst. What's next? Bush=Hitler?

First, good to see Proton again.

Second, I agree that there are degrees of bad, and I disagree with equating Falwell or other conservative Christian leaders with the Taliban, just as I disagree when Bush is called a fascist or compared to Hitler. As much as I dislike the agenda of the Christian right in this country, they aren't kidnapping and murdering people in an effort to terrorizing the populace into going along with their agenda.

While I strongly disliked Falwell and still dislike the agenda of the Christian right, we don't need the military to deal with them. We've got the ballot and the courts for that.

Still, just because Falwell and others like him aren't murdering people doesn't mean I and others who can't stand their agenda are obliged to look the other way and give them a pass for their segregationalist, gay-bashing, anti-science (i.e. ignorance peddling) words and behavior. Based on Falwell's own words, he clearly didn't respect those who don't share his views. The feeling is likewise in my case; whether he just died or not.

[Corlyss_D]

Second, I agree that there are degrees of bad, and I disagree with equating Falwell or other conservative Christian leaders with the Taliban, just as I disagree when Bush is called a fascist or compared to Hitler. As much as I dislike the agenda of the Christian right in this country, they aren't kidnapping and murdering people in an effort to terrorizing the populace into going along with their agenda.

While I strongly disliked Falwell and still dislike the agenda of the Christian right, we don't need the military to deal with them. We've got the ballot and the courts for that.

Still, just because Falwell and others like him aren't murdering people doesn't mean I and others who can't stand their agenda are obliged to look the other way and give them a pass for their obnoxious words and behavior. Based on Falwell's own words, he clearly didn't respect those who don't share his views. The feeling is likewise in my case; whether he just died or not.

I know you're a Cancer, but is there a strongly aspected Libra somewhere in your chart? You can usually tell a strongly aspected Libra by this tendancy: "One the one hand . . . . but on the other hand." The balancing act can extend many pages and include an extensive list of traits to be analyzed . . . .

So is this Proton fellow a good guy? He's not like that guy we left Baldric's site over, is he?

[Barry]

Second, I agree that there are degrees of bad, and I disagree with equating Falwell or other conservative Christian leaders with the Taliban, just as I disagree when Bush is called a fascist or compared to Hitler. As much as I dislike the agenda of the Christian right in this country, they aren't kidnapping and murdering people in an effort to terrorizing the populace into going along with their agenda.

While I strongly disliked Falwell and still dislike the agenda of the Christian right, we don't need the military to deal with them. We've got the ballot and the courts for that.

Still, just because Falwell and others like him aren't murdering people doesn't mean I and others who can't stand their agenda are obliged to look the other way and give them a pass for their obnoxious words and behavior. Based on Falwell's own words, he clearly didn't respect those who don't share his views. The feeling is likewise in my case; whether he just died or not.

I know you're a Cancer, but is there a strongly aspected Libra somewhere in your chart? You can usually tell a strongly aspected Libra by this tendancy: "One the one hand . . . . but on the other hand." The balancing act can extend many pages and include an extensive list of traits to be analyzed . . . .

So is this Proton fellow a good guy? He's not like that guy we left Baldric's site over, is he?

I've met Proton in person and liked him very much. I don't expect you to like his politics though . Still, nobody on here is like that guy from the Delphi board.

I wish I knew how to answer you astrology question .

[lmpower]

What bothered me about Falwell was his smugness and complacency. Stupid people are usually cocksure, while intelligent people are full of doubts. Nevertheless he was not a scoundrel like Swaggart and Bakker, nor was he a maniac like Jim Jones and David Koresh. It seems that he was able to befriend Larry Flynt despite quite different values. Ellen Johnson, president of American Atheists, says he condemned gays, secularists, civil libertarians and others who didn't fit into his plan to construct one nation under God. She neglects to mention that he also rejected child molesters, drug pushers and pornographers. I have never admired Falwell, but there are far worse people, and he seems to have been affable and courteous even with his opponents in personal meetings.

[Corlyss_D]

So is this Proton fellow a good guy? He's not like that guy we left Baldric's site over, is he?

I've met Proton in person and liked him very much.

I couldn't ask for a finer endorsement. Hackles returned to prone position.

I wish I knew how to answer you astrology question .

PM me with your birth date, time (including am or pm), and location and I'll see if I can find out for less than $50.

[JackC]

What bothered me about Falwell was his smugness and complacency. Stupid people are usually cocksure, while intelligent people are full of doubts.

I just don't see the connection between "studity" and "smugness and complacency" or between intelligence being full of doubt of doubts - not even as a general matter. It seems to be a very silly generalization.

I know lots of very brilliant people who are very smug, complacent and have no doubts about themselves or anything else.

People of faith in particular, be it Jerry Falwell or the Pope, don't get very far going around conveying or giving the impression that they are really "full or doubts."

[Corlyss_D]

What bothered me about Falwell was his smugness and complacency.

Funny. I think the same things about the internationalist cosmopolitan urban elites.

[Proton]

On topic, you might recall a thread ("American Taliban") I started on one of those long-defunct boards, in response to Falwell's hateful remarks

Hyperbole at best. Extremely ignorant or sloppy thought-processes at worst. What's next? Bush=Hitler?

I'll cop to hyperbole.

Bush=Hitler? No. As much contempt as I have for Bush, I'll go on record as saying that calling Bush Hitler is foolish.

On the other hand, back in March 2004, one of your guys, Rep. Tom Cole (R-OK) <a href="http://www.njdc.org/emet/detail.php?id=361">equated</a> voting against Bush in 2004 with supporting Hitler in WW2.

Cole also wrote "If George Bush loses the election, then Osama Bin Laden wins the election."

When Max Cleland was up for re-election in 2002, his opponent Saxby Chambliss ran attack ads morphing Cleland into OBL.

What say you to that?

[Proton]

First, good to see Proton again.

Second, I agree that there are degrees of bad, and I disagree with equating Falwell or other conservative Christian leaders with the Taliban, just as I disagree when Bush is called a fascist or compared to Hitler. As much as I dislike the agenda of the Christian right in this country, they aren't kidnapping and murdering people in an effort to terrorizing the populace into going along with their agenda.

While I strongly disliked Falwell and still dislike the agenda of the Christian right, we don't need the military to deal with them. We've got the ballot and the courts for that.

Likewise.

Second, here's the text of Falwell's infamous quote:

<i>""I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to <b>secularize</b> America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"</i>

--Jerry Falwell, September 13, 2001

My hyperbole was focused on the word "secularize," what with all the recent threats to separation between Church and State.

On the other hand, concerning those few extremists who were convicted of bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors who performed abortions, how would you characterize their political/religious affiliations?

Nobody suggested unleashing the military on Falwell and his crew. Agree on ballots, not bullets!

[Werner]

I get very few chances to agree with Barry on he Pub - in contrast to his always interesting musical posts - so it's good to be able to agree with his reply to Proton. Sure, it's possible to pick it apart in details, but that doesn't change the fact that the essence of your post, Barry, is very much in line with my own thoughts.

[Barry]

My hyperbole was focused on the word "secularize," what with all the recent threats to separation between Church and State.

On the other hand, concerning those few extremists who were convicted of bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors who performed abortions, how would you characterize their political/religious affiliations?

Nobody suggested unleashing the military on Falwell and his crew. Agree on ballots, not bullets!

The few Evangelicals who went beyond advocating and murdered people "in God's name" are wack jobs who are terrible exceptions to what I wrote in that earlier post. But the cops or FBI can generally deal with them. Violence by the Christian right isn't a wide spread problem.

But again, that doesn't mean you, I and anyone else who dislike's their agenda should remain silent on what they're trying to do (Falwell had the longterm goal of doing away with public schools and putting religion in charge of education...........I can imagine an entire nation of children being taught the things he pushes in his anti-Evolution museum........not to mention that Falwell and some other similar preachers are former segregationalists who changed their tune when it was no longer politically convenient to be publicly racist).

[Corlyss_D]

When Max Cleland was up for re-election in 2002, his opponent Saxby Chambliss ran attack ads morphing Cleland into OBL.

What say you to that?

It was ineffective.

But I will say that I myself believe the Democrats are doing everything in their power to realize Ben Laden's ambitions to remove us from the middle east. Naturally they don't call it that, any more than Chamberlain called his agreement with Hitler over Czechoslovakia "appeasement."

My hyperbole was focused on the word "secularize," what with all the recent threats to separation between Church and State.

The notion that this country is about to become a theocracy is just liberal propaganda to scare the gullible.

On the other hand, concerning those few extremists who were convicted of bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors who performed abortions, how would you characterize their political/religious affiliations?

I don't approve of bombings as a political expression in America. Way too 60s and long since discredited.

[Wallingford]

Say what you all want.

The news easily made MY DAY.

In the words of a couple of my favorite songs:"Ding, Dong, The Witch Is Dead"; "Celebrate! Celebrate! Dance to the music!"

[Wallingford]

And for the views of a few more with like minds, I heartily direct you to:
http://cagle.com/news/FarewellFalwell/main.asp

[Brendan]

Amid what appears to be just childish bad manners concerning the passing of a fellow human being, I had to do a rethink of Falwell's "infamous quote" above. If he had phrased it "Political Correctness and associated multicultural silliness has helped to make the West vulernable to such attack" he would be in agreement with many secular political and strategic analysts.

Rest in peace.

[RebLem]

I've met Proton in person and liked him very much.

I couldn't ask for a finer endorsement. Hackles returned to prone position.

I wish I knew how to answer you astrology question .

PM me with your birth date, time (including am or pm), and location and I'll see if I can find out for less than $50.

Tell me, Corlyss, do you have a set of tarot cards? Do you divine the future from the entrails of chickens? Do you believe in crystal power? When you get sick, do you suspend a dead crocodile over your bed to scare the evil spirits away?

[Corlyss_D]

Tell me, Corlyss,

Yes
No
Never tried it
No

[Proton]

When Max Cleland was up for re-election in 2002, his opponent Saxby Chambliss ran attack ads morphing Cleland into OBL.

What say you to that?

It was ineffective.
Ineffective? How so? Seems that Chambliss "won" that election.

I find it interesting that you wasted no time dragging out the old "Bush = Hitler" strawman, but didn't mention Rep Cole's conflation of Kerry with both Hitler and Bin Laden. Reagan's 11th commandment?


But I will say that I myself believe the Democrats are doing everything in their power to realize Ben Laden's ambitions to remove us from the middle east. Naturally they don't call it that, any more than Chamberlain called his agreement with Hitler over Czechoslovakia "appeasement."

Any more than you would admit, given how events have unfolded over the past 4 years, that the Cheney Administration's invasion of Iraq fits Bin Laden's purposes to a "T".

* Taking pressure off Bin Laden in the NW Pakistani tribal areas.

*Catalyzing jihad by fueling the perception that a Christian government had invaded and occupied a sovereign Muslim nation.

* Bleeding and breaking the U.S. military, leaving us increasingly incapable of dealing with other external threats, as well as defending ourselves here at home.

* Pre-invasion Iraq (with the exception of the Kurdish areas, which were protected from Saddam by US no-fly zones) was essentially off-limits to AQ.

I will say that you're correct at this point that if we leave, we do serve AQ's interests. On the other hand, if we stay to fight and die, we also serve AQ's interests. A perfect lose/lose scenario.

It seems that the only Iraq policy that would *not* have worked in Bin Laden's favor would have been to leave the impotent Saddam in place.

My hyperbole was focused on the word "secularize," what with all the recent threats to separation between Church and State.

The notion that this country is about to become a theocracy is just liberal propaganda to scare the gullible.

On the other hand, concerning those few extremists who were convicted of bombing abortion clinics and shooting doctors who performed abortions, how would you characterize their political/religious affiliations?

I don't approve of bombings as a political expression in America. Way too 60s and long since discredited.

C'mon Corlyss, that's not the question I asked. You know that I didn't imply that you were in favor of bombings, as were those radical 60's leftists Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh

[Proton]

FWIW- Heading out to airport to Europe. Will return in a week.

Best Wishes to all,
Proton

[Harvested Sorrow]

I think Hitchens hits the nail on the head in regards to him. It's nice to see a prominent conservative that doesn't want a theocracy.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007 ... alwell.php

[Ralph]

&#149;From today's New York Times:

To the Editor:
With the death of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, America has lost an outstanding defender of unborn human life. He used his own gift of life to secure the same for others.
In founding Liberty University, Mr. Falwell took to heart the words of the great Catholic biblical scholar St. Jerome, who declared that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.
As someone who is Catholic to the core, I am deeply saddened by the death of this great and good Baptist pastor.
Richard H. Escobales Jr.
Buffalo, May 16, 2007■

[Agnes Selby]

•From today's New York Times:

To the Editor:
With the death of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, America has lost an outstanding defender of unborn human life. He used his own gift of life to secure the same for others.
In founding Liberty University, Mr. Falwell took to heart the words of the great Catholic biblical scholar St. Jerome, who declared that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.
As someone who is Catholic to the core, I am deeply saddened by the death of this great and good Baptist pastor.
Richard H. Escobales Jr.
Buffalo, May 16, 2007■

------------------

Mr. Escobales Jr. has just ensured himself a place on the right side of Mr. Falwell when he himself enters heaven.

However, I have just heard from a well informed source that all is not well for Mr. Falwell in heaven. His entire welcoming committee consisted of Gays, Lesbians and Jews. What to do? What to do?

Agnes.
-----------------

[Brendan]

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!

Sorry folks, couldn't resist. But if Falwell's heaven exists, such an encounter would not happen, one way or another.

[Donald Isler]

"Falwell's Heaven?!"

I guess that's not a place I'm aiming for (nor a place where I'd be very welcome, in any case!)

[Wallingford]

And ASSUMING (I have my misgivings) that Falwell made it into heaven:

I wonder if he's shaken hands yet with the conductor Dimitri Mitropoulos? There's a devoutly religious man--of "alternative" lifestyle--who has to have made it up there.

If Falwell has, he must feel a right jerkface and stooge.

[Brendan]

If he made it to heaven he is in eternal bliss. R.I.P.

[jbuck919]

•From today's New York Times:

To the Editor:
With the death of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, America has lost an outstanding defender of unborn human life. He used his own gift of life to secure the same for others.
In founding Liberty University, Mr. Falwell took to heart the words of the great Catholic biblical scholar St. Jerome, who declared that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.
As someone who is Catholic to the core, I am deeply saddened by the death of this great and good Baptist pastor.
Richard H. Escobales Jr.
Buffalo, May 16, 2007■

Yes, well we know from your post in the Chatterbox what has been going on in Buffalo....

As for the posts on Mr. Falwell's fate and Christian tradition, there remains this central (however sophistical) thought of St. Paul:

Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of anyone, what God has prepared for those who love him.

--1 Corinthians 2:9

[pizza]

•From today's New York Times:

To the Editor:
With the death of the Rev. Jerry Falwell, America has lost an outstanding defender of unborn human life. He used his own gift of life to secure the same for others.
In founding Liberty University, Mr. Falwell took to heart the words of the great Catholic biblical scholar St. Jerome, who declared that ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.
As someone who is Catholic to the core, I am deeply saddened by the death of this great and good Baptist pastor.
Richard H. Escobales Jr.
Buffalo, May 16, 2007■

Yes, well we know from your post in the Chatterbox what has been going on in Buffalo....

Pretty irrelevant in Falwell's case. He probably doesn't play the oboe; he isn't gay and won't claim discrimination because of his sexual preference; besides which a federal court has no jurisdiction over St. Peter.