Brendan wrote:If you have nothing to say, just say that.
The text is clear, which you cannot deny.
The text is clear but youre not clear, hope thats clear.
Excellent response Ralph.Ralph wrote:*****Ted wrote:Saul, here’s my POV
Do you understand that your words are insulting and hurtful to people who hold Jesus dear to their hearts as you do Moses?
Or are you so deranged that you are in dire need of pharmacological assistance
I fear the answer is yes to both
He's neither "deranged" nor in need of drugs. He represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry-those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance. Look at his photos and paintings and listen to his compositions-this is a very bright man, perhaps in some ways the most creative participant on this board. But he's trapped in a world of dogma with answers for everything and solutions for nothing.
greymouse wrote:Saul, I was saying it's hypocritical because you said that non-Jewish scholars' opinions aren't very important to you when it comes to Tenach, but then you're claiming that Paul was giving his followers the wink and nudge when it came to idols and paganism. So first I'm thinking you haven't read or remembered much Paul. Which is fine, but why play an expert?
Many Christians admit the difficulty of attributing the authorship of their books, and that doesn't make them believe the Scriptures aren't God inspired. It presents no real theological problem - actually a higher percentage of New Testament books have the authors announce their identity at the outset than the Old Testament. But it isn't really important either.
btw, Brendan I really enjoyed the post about Josiah. That's interesting.
One of the most interesting courses I took at University was on the authorship of the Old Testament. The course was taught by a respected Biblical scholar. He led us through the various texts, clearly indicating differences in style, presentation, language and concept.Brendan wrote:So St John the Evangelist, the Beloved Disciple, is actually Paul, who never knew Jesus.
Most of here can spot the delusional one.
Also, try Richard Eliot Friedman's Who Wrote the Bible?. At the very least 4 authors are needed and have been identified by schiolarship since the 19th C: J (Yahwist), E (Elohist), D (Deuteronomist) and P (Priestly). Moses did not write a word of it, as most scholars are well aware.
prove paul knew of rudolph before gene autry did.SaulChanukah wrote:Paul had never met Jesus. He only claimed that he had a "vision" or a "dream" where he "saw" Jesus. Its like saying that I had never met you in real life but only had a "dream" about you. For some people that is a huge difference.david johnson wrote:'The early Christians were composed of Jews. It was a Jewish sect. This sect had two different camps. The first camp was of Jesus' Brother , James. The second camp was of Paul, who by the way had never met Jesus personally.'
Partially correct. Saul met the Lord on the way to Damascus.
'Thus, Paul began focusing on the Pagan world. His job was easy for he had already altered Christianity with Pagan motifs, enabling the Pagan world to embrace this new exotic faith, without compromising their own idolatrous customs, traditions and practices. Holidays, such as Christmas, with the tree, Santa Claus and Rudolf the deer, and Halloween have nothing Jewish about them, they are classic pagan symbols and beliefs, that Paul had added to his new found religion.'
Paul knew Rudoplh? er...try Gene Autry and his song about 2000 yrs. later.
You want to be taken as informed on this?
Paul added Santa and Rudolph?
My God, you have actually said Paul added this to his new found religion??
Oh, help, it hurts!
dj
About the Christmas tree and Rudolf.. and the rest of the Pagan things...
These were not "Original" Christian inventions but they are all pagan. Paul didnt mind that his new converts would continue celebrating their pagan holidays. This proves my point that Paul embraced Pagan ideas and used them to convert the pagans.
There is nothing funny about it, and you have not said anything to counter I said.
Please read carefully Donald. Jews are not Saul. This very thread is Saul's attempt to minimize Christ's influence on Christianity. That is not a Jewish premise.While I dislike and disagree with much of what Saul has written, the above statement is not correct. Jews, generally, continue to believe as they always have.
It was Paul who Hijacked the teachings of Jesus that were of Jewish origins and added pagan ideas and then sold it to the pagan masses.
So you could claim that Paul was the one that had an impact on the world by selling a religion of strong pagan motifs.
Claiming that Saul "represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry- those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance" is absurd at best, as you obviously have no idea concerning the level of controversy, disagreement and debate based upon serious scholarship that occurs within the so-called "fundamentalist" Jewish community -- a contrived misnomer if ever there was one -- and at worst, the pinnacle of hypocracy, coming from a devout and dedicated atheist who admittedly "worship[s] the First Amendment" and supports an organization that placed its facilities and skills at the disposal of Nazis whose sole purpose was to torture and traumatize Holocaust survivors.Ralph wrote:*****Ted wrote:Saul, here’s my POV
Do you understand that your words are insulting and hurtful to people who hold Jesus dear to their hearts as you do Moses?
Or are you so deranged that you are in dire need of pharmacological assistance
I fear the answer is yes to both
He's neither "deranged" nor in need of drugs. He represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry-those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance. Look at his photos and paintings and listen to his compositions-this is a very bright man, perhaps in some ways the most creative participant on this board. But he's trapped in a world of dogma with answers for everything and solutions for nothing.
Scholarship addressing the Dead Sea Scrolls, which were discovered in the late '40s and early '50s and written during the Second Temple period in Hebrew and Aramaic about a thousand years before the Masoretic Text, confirms the unbroken continuity of the Old Testament Biblical Texts.Brendan wrote:Modern rabbinic judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple, and continues to develop as all religions and people do. Hebrew was a lost language and they had to relearn to read the ancient source documents, so the Masoretic Text used today is actually of a later date than the Greek OT translation.
No one believes "as they always have."
*****pizza wrote:Claiming that Saul "represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry- those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance" is absurd at best, as you obviously have no idea concerning the level of controversy, disagreement and debate based upon serious scholarship that occurs within the so-called "fundamentalist" Jewish community -- a contrived misnomer if ever there was one -- and at worst, the pinnacle of hypocracy, coming from a devout and dedicated atheist who admittedly "worship[s] the First Amendment" and supports an organization that placed its facilities and skills at the disposal of Nazis whose sole purpose was to torture and traumatize Holocaust survivors.Ralph wrote:*****Ted wrote:Saul, here’s my POV
Do you understand that your words are insulting and hurtful to people who hold Jesus dear to their hearts as you do Moses?
Or are you so deranged that you are in dire need of pharmacological assistance
I fear the answer is yes to both
He's neither "deranged" nor in need of drugs. He represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry-those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance. Look at his photos and paintings and listen to his compositions-this is a very bright man, perhaps in some ways the most creative participant on this board. But he's trapped in a world of dogma with answers for everything and solutions for nothing.
Sorry to be so blunt, but as to who is "trapped" in dogma, the answer should be obvious.
Must be like fundamentalist Christianity. The fundie Christians are so busy anathemizing eachother over obscure theological issues they could never agree enough amongst themselves to institute something like a theocracypizza wrote:Claiming that Saul "represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry- those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance" is absurd at best, as you obviously have no idea concerning the level of controversy, disagreement and debate based upon serious scholarship that occurs within the so-called "fundamentalist" Jewish community -- a contrived misnomer if ever there was one -- and at worst, the pinnacle of hypocracy, coming from a devout and dedicated atheist who admittedly "worship[s] the First Amendment" and supports an organization that placed its facilities and skills at the disposal of Nazis whose sole purpose was to torture and traumatize Holocaust survivors.Ralph wrote:*****Ted wrote:Saul, here’s my POV
Do you understand that your words are insulting and hurtful to people who hold Jesus dear to their hearts as you do Moses?
Or are you so deranged that you are in dire need of pharmacological assistance
I fear the answer is yes to both
He's neither "deranged" nor in need of drugs. He represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry-those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance. Look at his photos and paintings and listen to his compositions-this is a very bright man, perhaps in some ways the most creative participant on this board. But he's trapped in a world of dogma with answers for everything and solutions for nothing.
Sorry to be so blunt, but as to who is "trapped" in dogma, the answer should be obvious.
It is nothing of the sort and the assumption that it resembles fundamental Christianity or that its purpose is to establish a theocracy is completely unwarranted. The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.BWV 1080 wrote:Must be like fundamentalist Christianity. The fundie Christians are so busy anathemizing eachother over obscure theological issues they could never agree enough amongst themselves to institute something like a theocracypizza wrote:Claiming that Saul "represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry- those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance" is absurd at best, as you obviously have no idea concerning the level of controversy, disagreement and debate based upon serious scholarship that occurs within the so-called "fundamentalist" Jewish community -- a contrived misnomer if ever there was one -- and at worst, the pinnacle of hypocracy, coming from a devout and dedicated atheist who admittedly "worship[s] the First Amendment" and supports an organization that placed its facilities and skills at the disposal of Nazis whose sole purpose was to torture and traumatize Holocaust survivors.Ralph wrote:*****Ted wrote:Saul, here’s my POV
Do you understand that your words are insulting and hurtful to people who hold Jesus dear to their hearts as you do Moses?
Or are you so deranged that you are in dire need of pharmacological assistance
I fear the answer is yes to both
He's neither "deranged" nor in need of drugs. He represents the extremist wing of fundamentalist Jewry-those folks who will follow their rebbes to any level of dedicated ignorance. Look at his photos and paintings and listen to his compositions-this is a very bright man, perhaps in some ways the most creative participant on this board. But he's trapped in a world of dogma with answers for everything and solutions for nothing.
Sorry to be so blunt, but as to who is "trapped" in dogma, the answer should be obvious.
From The Ancient Hebrew Language and Alphabet by Jeff A. BennerDonald Isler wrote:I don't believe Hebrew was ever a "lost" language. True, it was not used as vernacular till the Zionists "resurrected" it as a spoken language starting around the 1880's. But it's my understanding that since ancient days Jews studied the holy texts in Hebrew. It never disappeared.
Youre wrong on everything.Brendan wrote:Modern rabbinic judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple, and continues to develop as all religions and people do. Hebrew was a lost language and they had to relearn to read the ancient source documents, so the Masoretic Text used today is actually of a later date than the Greek OT translation.
No one believes "as they always have."
So you sacrifice animals at the Temple? What a bald-faced lie! (If you do sacrifice animals as sin offerings, you should be arrested immediately)SaulChanukah wrote:Youre wrong on everything.Brendan wrote:Modern rabbinic judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple, and continues to develop as all religions and people do. Hebrew was a lost language and they had to relearn to read the ancient source documents, so the Masoretic Text used today is actually of a later date than the Greek OT translation.
No one believes "as they always have."
Hebrew was never lost. Guess what? I speak both Ancient and Modern Hebrew Fluently. Your comments are utterly wrong.
Also you said another wrong comment "Modern rabbinic Judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple".
The faith is the same , we Jews worship the same God and follow the same commandments all throughout history. One of the 613 commandments is that we Jews should listen and follow our Sages.
I see that you also cant read.Brendan wrote:So you sacrifice animals at the Temple? What a bald-faced lie! (If you do sacrifice animals as sin offerings, you should be arrested immediately)SaulChanukah wrote:Youre wrong on everything.Brendan wrote:Modern rabbinic judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple, and continues to develop as all religions and people do. Hebrew was a lost language and they had to relearn to read the ancient source documents, so the Masoretic Text used today is actually of a later date than the Greek OT translation.
No one believes "as they always have."
Hebrew was never lost. Guess what? I speak both Ancient and Modern Hebrew Fluently. Your comments are utterly wrong.
Also you said another wrong comment "Modern rabbinic Judaism is very different from the ancient faith of the Temple".
The faith is the same , we Jews worship the same God and follow the same commandments all throughout history. One of the 613 commandments is that we Jews should listen and follow our Sages.
Same for everything else you wrote. You do not speak the original Hewbrew - no one does, your delusions notwithstanding. Argue with Prof Brenner, a well-published academic expert on the subject.
You have nothing but entrenched delusions.
Best to wear ear protection when you do that, Saul.Just listen to yourself how you are shooting yourself in the foot.
Brendan, Saul is beyond scholarship. He sticks his fingers in his ears and sings, "you're in lalalalalalalallalalla land, you're in lalalalalalalalala land."Brendan wrote:Scholarship shows otherwise, and the Bible itself says the Book of the Law was only "found" during the reign of Josiah (when Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple. See the previous quote above), meaning the religion changed.
End of story - deal with it.
The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
What you overlook is that the purpose of debate among Orthodox Jews (or "fights" as you prefer) is to determine what God wants of them, not to put one another down.BWV 1080 wrote:The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
The dynamic seems to be that the liberals all get along and the conservatives fight constantly among themselves.
End of story in your mind, but not in the minds of serious scholars.Brendan wrote:Scholarship shows otherwise, and the Bible itself says the Book of the Law was only "found" during the reign of Josiah (when Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple. See the previous quote above), meaning the religion changed.
End of story - deal with it.
I am not overlooking anything. You could argue within either group that the reason the liberals do not fight amongst themselves is they do not care enough to do so. One only fights for something they value and hold passionately.pizza wrote:What you overlook is that the purpose of debate among Orthodox Jews (or "fights" as you prefer) is to determine what God wants of them, not to put one another down.BWV 1080 wrote:The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
The dynamic seems to be that the liberals all get along and the conservatives fight constantly among themselves.
You miss the point once again. It is completely irrelevant to them what "they value and hold passionately". What only matters is determining what God wants of them and that is the sole purpose of debate. Nobody cares who "wins" the debate. What matters is determining the truth.BWV 1080 wrote:I am not overlooking anything. You could argue within either group that the reason the liberals do not fight amongst themselves is they do not care enough to do so. One only fights for something they value and hold passionately.pizza wrote:What you overlook is that the purpose of debate among Orthodox Jews (or "fights" as you prefer) is to determine what God wants of them, not to put one another down.BWV 1080 wrote:The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
The dynamic seems to be that the liberals all get along and the conservatives fight constantly among themselves.
Now you are deliberately being dense. What they value and hold passionately is what they believe is God's law. However knowing from experience there are sharp disagreements in conservative christian circles what this entails and was extrapolating that the same is true within Orthodox Judaism.pizza wrote:You miss the point once again. It is completely irrelevant to them what "they value and hold passionately". What only matters is determining what God wants of them and that is the sole purpose of debate.BWV 1080 wrote:I am not overlooking anything. You could argue within either group that the reason the liberals do not fight amongst themselves is they do not care enough to do so. One only fights for something they value and hold passionately.pizza wrote:What you overlook is that the purpose of debate among Orthodox Jews (or "fights" as you prefer) is to determine what God wants of them, not to put one another down.BWV 1080 wrote:The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
The dynamic seems to be that the liberals all get along and the conservatives fight constantly among themselves.
To put it in the simplest of terms, I'd love to slop down a couple of platefuls of scallops -- the experience of which I value and hold passionately -- along with a few beers at Fisherman's Wharf in SF, but God says no, and so I have no choice.
Not dense at all. You keep moving the target.BWV 1080 wrote:Now you are deliberately being dense. What they value and hold passionately is what they believe is God's law. However knowing from experience there are sharp disagreements in conservative christian circles what this entails and was extrapolating that the same is true within Orthodox Judaism.pizza wrote:You miss the point once again. It is completely irrelevant to them what "they value and hold passionately". What only matters is determining what God wants of them and that is the sole purpose of debate.BWV 1080 wrote:I am not overlooking anything. You could argue within either group that the reason the liberals do not fight amongst themselves is they do not care enough to do so. One only fights for something they value and hold passionately.pizza wrote:What you overlook is that the purpose of debate among Orthodox Jews (or "fights" as you prefer) is to determine what God wants of them, not to put one another down.BWV 1080 wrote:The same is true of fundamentalist Christianity (to use the term broadly to include traditionalist Catholics, Orthodox, Reformed etc - not just evangelicals).pizza wrote: The theological issues discussed and debated include all aspects of modern life ranging from current politics and social issues to the impact of the latest technology on traditional Jewish thought. Many observant Jews are well educated in secular disciplines, are extremely successful in their areas of expertise and operate at the highest levels of professional skill.
The dynamic seems to be that the liberals all get along and the conservatives fight constantly among themselves.
To put it in the simplest of terms, I'd love to slop down a couple of platefuls of scallops -- the experience of which I value and hold passionately -- along with a few beers at Fisherman's Wharf in SF, but God says no, and so I have no choice.
And the Greek OT predates the Dead Sea Scrolls by centuries and disagrees substantially with the Masoretic Text. I have several copies of the DSS texts and they are not a complete OT by anyones stretch of the imagination. Schloarhsip still shows that the Isaiah text has at least two authors, for instance - something which the DSS texts have nothing to say about at all one way or another.pizza wrote:End of story in your mind, but not in the minds of serious scholars.Brendan wrote:Scholarship shows otherwise, and the Bible itself says the Book of the Law was only "found" during the reign of Josiah (when Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple. See the previous quote above), meaning the religion changed.
End of story - deal with it.
From a Christian scholar if it makes you happier:
"The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text
The Dead Sea Scrolls play a crucial role in assessing the accurate preservation of the Old Testament. With its hundreds of manuscripts from every book except Esther, detailed comparisons can be made with more recent texts.
The Old Testament that we use today is translated from what is called the Masoretic Text. The Masoretes were Jewish scholars who between A.D. 500 and 950 gave the Old Testament the form that we use today. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947, the oldest Hebrew text of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Aleppo Codex which dates to A.D. 935.{5}
With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we now had manuscripts that predated the Masoretic Text by about one thousand years. Scholars were anxious to see how the Dead Sea documents would match up with the Masoretic Text. If a significant amount of differences were found, we could conclude that our Old Testament Text had not been well preserved. Critics, along with religious groups such as Muslims and Mormons, often make the claim that the present day Old Testament has been corrupted and is not well preserved. According to these religious groups, this would explain the contradictions between the Old Testament and their religious teachings.
After years of careful study, it has been concluded that the Dead Sea Scrolls give substantial confirmation that our Old Testament has been accurately preserved. The scrolls were found to be almost identical with the Masoretic text. Hebrew Scholar Millar Burrows writes, “It is a matter of wonder that through something like one thousand years the text underwent so little alteration. As I said in my first article on the scroll, ‘Herein lies its chief importance, supporting the fidelity of the Masoretic tradition.’”{6}
A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.
One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”{7}
Despite the thousand year gap, scholars found the Masoretic Text and Dead Sea Scrolls to be nearly identical. The Dead Sea Scrolls provide valuable evidence that the Old Testament had been accurately and carefully preserved."
http://www.probe.org/reasons-to-believe ... rolls.html
I consider your "Scholars" as almost stupid as you, but you still got the head of them in stupidity. Your ignorance and theirs is a combination of stupidity, idiotic, lunacy, dumbness, and last but not least illusionary.Brendan wrote:And the Greek OT predates the Dead Sea Scrolls by centuries and disagrees substantially with the Masoretic Text. I have several copies of the DSS texts and they are not a complete OT by anyones stretch of the imagination. Schloarhsip still shows that the Isaiah text has at least two authors, for instance - something which the DSS texts have nothing to say about at all one way or another.pizza wrote:End of story in your mind, but not in the minds of serious scholars.Brendan wrote:Scholarship shows otherwise, and the Bible itself says the Book of the Law was only "found" during the reign of Josiah (when Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple. See the previous quote above), meaning the religion changed.
End of story - deal with it.
From a Christian scholar if it makes you happier:
"The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text
The Dead Sea Scrolls play a crucial role in assessing the accurate preservation of the Old Testament. With its hundreds of manuscripts from every book except Esther, detailed comparisons can be made with more recent texts.
The Old Testament that we use today is translated from what is called the Masoretic Text. The Masoretes were Jewish scholars who between A.D. 500 and 950 gave the Old Testament the form that we use today. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947, the oldest Hebrew text of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Aleppo Codex which dates to A.D. 935.{5}
With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we now had manuscripts that predated the Masoretic Text by about one thousand years. Scholars were anxious to see how the Dead Sea documents would match up with the Masoretic Text. If a significant amount of differences were found, we could conclude that our Old Testament Text had not been well preserved. Critics, along with religious groups such as Muslims and Mormons, often make the claim that the present day Old Testament has been corrupted and is not well preserved. According to these religious groups, this would explain the contradictions between the Old Testament and their religious teachings.
After years of careful study, it has been concluded that the Dead Sea Scrolls give substantial confirmation that our Old Testament has been accurately preserved. The scrolls were found to be almost identical with the Masoretic text. Hebrew Scholar Millar Burrows writes, “It is a matter of wonder that through something like one thousand years the text underwent so little alteration. As I said in my first article on the scroll, ‘Herein lies its chief importance, supporting the fidelity of the Masoretic tradition.’”{6}
A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.
One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”{7}
Despite the thousand year gap, scholars found the Masoretic Text and Dead Sea Scrolls to be nearly identical. The Dead Sea Scrolls provide valuable evidence that the Old Testament had been accurately and carefully preserved."
http://www.probe.org/reasons-to-believe ... rolls.html
Change is still there however much you would wish to deny it. Josiah found the Book of the Law whilst Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple (now the Mosque).
Saul can you give us a more exact breakdown of the mix there? What are the relative percentages of idiotic and dumbness?I consider your "Scholars" as almost stupid as you, but you still got the head of them in stupidity. Your ignorance and theirs is a combination of stupidity, idiotic, lunacy, dumbness, and last but not least illusionary
From the same source re: Isaiah:Brendan wrote:And the Greek OT predates the Dead Sea Scrolls by centuries and disagrees substantially with the Masoretic Text. I have several copies of the DSS texts and they are not a complete OT by anyones stretch of the imagination. Schloarhsip still shows that the Isaiah text has at least two authors, for instance - something which the DSS texts have nothing to say about at all one way or another.pizza wrote:End of story in your mind, but not in the minds of serious scholars.Brendan wrote:Scholarship shows otherwise, and the Bible itself says the Book of the Law was only "found" during the reign of Josiah (when Baal and Asherah were still worshipped in the Temple. See the previous quote above), meaning the religion changed.
End of story - deal with it.
From a Christian scholar if it makes you happier:
"The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text
The Dead Sea Scrolls play a crucial role in assessing the accurate preservation of the Old Testament. With its hundreds of manuscripts from every book except Esther, detailed comparisons can be made with more recent texts.
The Old Testament that we use today is translated from what is called the Masoretic Text. The Masoretes were Jewish scholars who between A.D. 500 and 950 gave the Old Testament the form that we use today. Until the Dead Sea Scrolls were found in 1947, the oldest Hebrew text of the Old Testament was the Masoretic Aleppo Codex which dates to A.D. 935.{5}
With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, we now had manuscripts that predated the Masoretic Text by about one thousand years. Scholars were anxious to see how the Dead Sea documents would match up with the Masoretic Text. If a significant amount of differences were found, we could conclude that our Old Testament Text had not been well preserved. Critics, along with religious groups such as Muslims and Mormons, often make the claim that the present day Old Testament has been corrupted and is not well preserved. According to these religious groups, this would explain the contradictions between the Old Testament and their religious teachings.
After years of careful study, it has been concluded that the Dead Sea Scrolls give substantial confirmation that our Old Testament has been accurately preserved. The scrolls were found to be almost identical with the Masoretic text. Hebrew Scholar Millar Burrows writes, “It is a matter of wonder that through something like one thousand years the text underwent so little alteration. As I said in my first article on the scroll, ‘Herein lies its chief importance, supporting the fidelity of the Masoretic tradition.’”{6}
A significant comparison study was conducted with the Isaiah Scroll written around 100 B.C. that was found among the Dead Sea documents and the book of Isaiah found in the Masoretic text. After much research, scholars found that the two texts were practically identical. Most variants were minor spelling differences, and none affected the meaning of the text.
One of the most respected Old Testament scholars, the late Gleason Archer, examined the two Isaiah scrolls found in Cave 1 and wrote, “Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The five percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.”{7}
Despite the thousand year gap, scholars found the Masoretic Text and Dead Sea Scrolls to be nearly identical. The Dead Sea Scrolls provide valuable evidence that the Old Testament had been accurately and carefully preserved."
http://www.probe.org/reasons-to-believe ... rolls.html
Why don't you post an analysis of the "later texts" that indicate a demarcation in the Isaiah scroll so that we can be more precise in our own discussion. It's been well established that the DSS weren't written at the same time or by a single scribe, but that doesn't mean that each scroll had multiple authors.Brendan wrote:
By the by, if the DSS Isaiah scroll revealed no demarcation, that the analysis of the later texts indicated was there, then the DSS text must be substantially different.
Can't have it both ways - is the DSDS scroll the same as later texts or have changes been noted that would lead scholars to think that Isaiah had more than one author?
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests