The Children of Opus 125

[dulcinea]

I'm now listening to the 4th Symphony of Joseph Ryelandt, which includes a setting of the Credo.
How many symphonies include vocal and choral sections?

[piston]

How many symphonies include vocal and choral sections?

As the word "symphony" first referred to vocal works or to a combination of voices and a few instruments, it would seem that one would have to start counting symphonies with vocal sections around the fifteenth century. The practice of including vocal sections in a symphony was quite widespread in the twentieth century.

[Jared]

two I have been enjoying recently, are Vaughan-Williams' 1st: Sea Symphony, and Mendelssohn's 2nd: Hymn of Praise... but they are both well known, and hardly revelatory on this forum... only to me..

[Febnyc]

The Third Symphony of Guy Ropartz. Not to be missed and would put the Ryelandt, as fine as it is, in the shade.

[Lance]

The obvious one, of course is Beethoven's 9th Symphony. But beyond that, there's Mahler's Symphony #8 (Symphony of a Thousand), and his Symphony #2 ("Resurrection"), and while not a symphony, there's Busoni's Piano Concerto with Male Chorus, Op. 39. Then there's Beethoven's "Choral Fantasy" for Piano & Orchestra; Asger Hamerik's Symphony #7 (Choral); John Burge's "Winter Sun, a Choral Symphony in C," and, of course, you have the choral movement from Gustav Holst's The Planets and the final section of Debussy's three Nocturnes. Wasn't there a symphonic work, a symphony, by Elgar with a choral movement? I'll try to think of some more.

[Modernistfan]

The Shostakovich Second, Third, and Thirteenth Symphonies. The Second and Third both end with a choral presentation of revolutionary texts, with no vocal soloists. The Thirteenth, of course, uses poetry by Yevtushenko, including "Babi Yar," with a bass soloist and chorus. (You might also consider the Fourteenth, but perhaps that is really more a song cycle than a symphony.) Also, the Henze Ninth Symphony, using a chorus and texts about the Second World War. (It probably is no accident that Henze, who had not used vocal or choral parts in any of his first eight symphonies, decided to do so in the Ninth.)

[piston]

Hector Berlioz:
Romeo and Juliet
Grande Symphonie Funebre et Triomphale (second version), for military band, with strings and chorus.

Franz Liszt:
A Faust Symphony.
A Dante Symphony.

Among Russians, Shostakovich [Modernistfan beat me to it] and Weinberg wrote several symphonies with choral music.

Villa-Lobos, Sinfonia no. 10 "Amerindia"

Leonard Bernstein:
Symphony no. 3, "Kaddish"

[nut-job]

There seem to be a discouraging number of composers who ruin their symphonies with vocal soloists or chorus. Add to the ones listed Rubbra (9th) and Atterberg (9th).

[piston]

Adding

Stravinsky, Symphony of Psalms

Szymanowski, Symphony no. 3, "Song of the NIght"

Gorecki, Symphony no. 2, "Copernican"

Hovhaness: Symphony no. 12 "Choral"

[Lance]

NUT-JOB! You made to our site! Many thanks. We hope you're looking around and finding some interesting things! Welcome aboard! I am curious, however, why you think composers' symphonies are "ruined" by the inclusion of choral or vocal segments.

There seem to be a discouraging number of composers who ruin their symphonies with vocal soloists or chorus. Add to the ones listed Rubbra (9th) and Atterberg (9th).

[Lance]

Oh! And how about Gorecki's Symphony No. 3 - "Symphony of Sorrowful Songs." That is a particular fav of mine.

[nut-job]

NUT-JOB! You made to our site! Many thanks. We hope you're looking around and finding some interesting things! Welcome aboard! I am curious, however, why you think composers' symphonies are "ruined" by the inclusion of choral or vocal segments.

There seem to be a discouraging number of composers who ruin their symphonies with vocal soloists or chorus. Add to the ones listed Rubbra (9th) and Atterberg (9th).

I don't like choral or most vocal music, and I would think that any reasonable definition of a symphony includes the idea that it is an abstract musical form. Works that have vocals and text throughout I would categorize as cantatas, oratorios, motets, etc. Something like Vaughan Williams 1 or Mahler 8 is simply an cantata or oratorio. Introduction of voice effectively as a musical instrument (Vaughan Williams Pastoral or Anactica) is consistent with the idea of a symphony, but just sounds unnecessary, to my ears.

[John F]

Britten, Spring Symphony.

Havergal Brian, Symphony #1 ("Gothic")

[DavidRoss]

Mahler's 2nd & 8th have been mentioned, but not his 3rd, 4th, or 9th, nor his symphonic song cycle, Das Lied von der Erde, nor Sibelius's Kullervo--all highly recommendable. Perhaps Lance was thinking of Elgar's oratorio, The Dream of Gerontius?

[dulcinea]

NUT-JOB! You made to our site! Many thanks. We hope you're looking around and finding some interesting things! Welcome aboard! I am curious, however, why you think composers' symphonies are "ruined" by the inclusion of choral or vocal segments.

There seem to be a discouraging number of composers who ruin their symphonies with vocal soloists or chorus. Add to the ones listed Rubbra (9th) and Atterberg (9th).

I don't like choral or most vocal music.

I hope that you are being humorous in a very dry manner, because otherwise I'll have to conclude that you don't like Victoria, Monteverdi, JS Bach, Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi, Mozart, FJ and JM Haydn, Schubert, Berlioz, Verdi, Wagner and Britten and several others whose output is, if not mostly vocal, at least vocal to a very important degree.

[Chalkperson]

I hope that you are being humorous in a very dry manner, because otherwise I'll have to conclude that you don't like Victoria, Monteverdi, JS Bach, Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi etc etc

Well, he does call himself Nut-Job...

[Chalkperson]

Welcome, Nut Job, to our little Virtual Village, please post often, we are definitely interested in your views on Classical Music...

[nut-job]

NUT-JOB! You made to our site! Many thanks. We hope you're looking around and finding some interesting things! Welcome aboard! I am curious, however, why you think composers' symphonies are "ruined" by the inclusion of choral or vocal segments.

There seem to be a discouraging number of composers who ruin their symphonies with vocal soloists or chorus. Add to the ones listed Rubbra (9th) and Atterberg (9th).

I don't like choral or most vocal music.

I hope that you are being humorous in a very dry manner, because otherwise I'll have to conclude that you don't like Victoria, Monteverdi, JS Bach, Handel, Telemann, Vivaldi, Mozart, FJ and JM Haydn, Schubert, Berlioz, Verdi, Wagner and Britten and several others whose output is, if not mostly vocal, at least vocal to a very important degree.

I generally do not enjoy much concert vocal music, so I blissfully ignore most of the vocal music of Bach, Handel, Teleman, etc. That leaves lots to enjoy. There are a few works of this nature which are able to overcome my general predisposition against choral music, but not many. Opera I can enjoy in discrete quantities, but if it is a staged performance. I don't have much enthusiasm for listening to opera on CD. But to your list, I have never listened to Victoria, Monteverdi, or JM Haydn. Of the others, I have little or no interest in Vivaldi, the others wrote a significant amount of music that I enjoy.

[Jared]

I generally do not enjoy much concert vocal music, so I blissfully ignore most of the vocal music of Bach, Handel, Teleman, etc. That leaves lots to enjoy. There are a few works of this nature which are able to overcome my general predisposition against choral music, but not many. Opera I can enjoy in discrete quantities, but if it is a staged performance. I don't have much enthusiasm for listening to opera on CD. But to your list, I have never listened to Victoria, Monteverdi, or JM Haydn. Of the others, I have little or no interest in Vivaldi, the others wrote a significant amount of music that I enjoy.

Hi N-J,

I am quite new to most classical music, and hence I know less than everyone else on the forum. As a consequence, I'll be honest, there are certain sub-genres and styles which at present I really struggle with. This however, I put down to my previous experiences with music, background and lack of musical education. There should be no reason per se, why I think the chamber works of Schubert which I've heard, approach the realms of genius, yet I've really struggled to grasp his (and lets be honest, everybody else's) Lieder..

For a long time, I had a mental block against religious choral works, because it reminded me too much of being dragged along to church as a youth, however one of the pieces that prized the door adjar slightly for me, was the revelatory moment a neighbour lent me Monteverdi: Vespers Of The Blessed Virgin (1610). I think it was novelty of hearing the 'sagbutts and cornets' which initially drew me in, but then I started to appreciate the incredible multi-layered vocal structures of the piece, which was nothing quite like I had heard before, and its one which I'd recommend you gave a listen to at some point.... (moving onto Victoria: Requiem when you are ready??)

As far as Vivaldi is concerned, may I suggest you treat yourself to Trevor Pinnock's 7 Concerti for Woodwind & Strings (Archiv: 1995)? A beautifully recorded HIP, which are almost impossible to dislike. Personally, they lead me to the purchase of his 5CD Concerti box set, but this particluar CD may be picked up for very reasonable money on Amazon...

Anyway, a warm welcome to CMG...

[nut-job]

Hi N-J,

I am quite new to most classical music, and hence I know less than everyone else on the forum. As a consequence, I'll be honest, there are certain sub-genres and styles which at present I really struggle with. This however, I put down to my previous experiences with music, background and lack of musical education. There should be no reason per se, why I think the chamber works of Schubert which I've heard, approach the realms of genius, yet I've really struggled to grasp his (and lets be honest, everybody else's) Lieder..

For a long time, I had a mental block against religious choral works, because it reminded me too much of being dragged along to church as a youth, however one of the pieces that prized the door adjar slightly for me, was the revelatory moment a neighbour lent me Monteverdi: Vespers Of The Blessed Virgin (1610). I think it was novelty of hearing the 'sagbutts and cornets' which initially drew me in, but then I started to appreciate the incredible multi-layered vocal structures of the piece, which was nothing quite like I had heard before, and its one which I'd recommend you gave a listen to at some point.... (moving onto Victoria: Requiem when you are ready??)

As far as Vivaldi is concerned, may I suggest you treat yourself to Trevor Pinnock's 7 Concerti for Woodwind & Strings (Archiv: 1995)? A beautifully recorded HIP, which are almost impossible to dislike. Personally, they lead me to the purchase of his 5CD Concerti box set, but this particluar CD may be picked up for very reasonable money on Amazon...

Anyway, a warm welcome to CMG...

Thanks for your suggestions.

Unfortunately you'll find me a hard case, I suffer no lack of familiarity with the pre-Bach polyphony, and I have a recording of the Monteverdi vespers. After hearing it, it takes a good fifteen years before I'm in the mood to try again.

Also, I have to confess an aversion to Trevor Pinnock's approach to baroque music. I tend to go along with those who joke that Pinnock's orchestra sounds like a sewing maching. Harnoncourt is my guiding light in this area, whose rhythms and phrasing are much more flexible. I have dozens of recordings of pre-classical concerti, including a number of recordings of Vivaldi concerti for wind instruments. But I can't say that Vivaldi's efforts have impressed me as much as the concerti of Bach, Handel or Albinoni.

[Chalkperson]

I have a recording of the Monteverdi vespers. After hearing it, it takes a good fifteen years before I'm in the mood to try again.

I agree with that, Corlyss will disagree, but, it's not a patch on Rachmaninov's...but, that said, the Nine Books of Madrigals by Monteverdi are one of the greatest sets of music ever written...

[dulcinea]

How do you like the 1st Symphony of Scriabin, which concludes with a chorus that sings the praises of art?

[THEHORN]

I have a recording of a choral symphony by the late Moshe Weinberg ,one of his numerous symphonies , on the obscure Virtuoso label with the late Yuri Aronovich(a fine conductor) and the Jerusalem radio symphony plus chorus and children's chorus.
I can't recall offhand which number of his symphonies it is.
It's sung in Hebrew but there is unfortunately no translation.
It's an interesting work, definitely influenced by Weinberg's teacher Shostakovich. I'd like to get to know more of this composer's music.
Also, the gargantuan and mind-boggling "Gothic Symphony which I recently got to know for the first time is a notable example of this genre. Because of the almost impossibly large forces required, none of us is likely to ever hear a live performance,so we must be grateful for the Naxos recording.
Possibly Simon Rattle could do it with the Berlin Philharmonic and record it for EMI,or possibly DG. That might be something.

[THEHORN]

I have a recording of a choral symphony by the late Moshe Weinberg ,one of his numerous symphonies , on the obscure Virtuoso label with the late Yuri Aronovich(a fine conductor) and the Jerusalem radio symphony plus chorus and children's chorus.
I can't recall offhand which number of his symphonies it is.
It's sung in Hebrew but there is unfortunately no translation.
It's an interesting work, definitely influenced by Weinberg's teacher Shostakovich. I'd like to get to know more of this composer's music.
Also, the gargantuan and mind-boggling "Gothic Symphony which I recently got to know for the first time is a notable example of this genre. Because of the almost impossibly large forces required, none of us is likely to ever hear a live performance,so we must be grateful for the Naxos recording.
Possibly Simon Rattle could do it with the Berlin Philharmonic and record it for EMI,or possibly DG. That might be something.

[THEHORN]

I have a recording of a choral symphony by the late Moshe Weinberg ,one of his numerous symphonies , on the obscure Virtuoso label with the late Yuri Aronovich(a fine conductor) and the Jerusalem radio symphony plus chorus and children's chorus.
I can't recall offhand which number of his symphonies it is.
It's sung in Hebrew but there is unfortunately no translation.
It's an interesting work, definitely influenced by Weinberg's teacher Shostakovich. I'd like to get to know more of this composer's music.
Also, the gargantuan and mind-boggling "Gothic Symphony which I recently got to know for the first time is a notable example of this genre. Because of the almost impossibly large forces required, none of us is likely to ever hear a live performance,so we must be grateful for the Naxos recording.
Possibly Simon Rattle could do it with the Berlin Philharmonic and record it for EMI,or possibly DG. That might be something.

[kombelpeter]

The choir plays a significant part in 'Eine Faust-Symphonie' from Franz Liszt. Really magnificent music!