From Australia Another Top 100 List To Ponder............

[stenka razin]

I found the list below on ABC's website. What do you think of these choices? My fellow CMGers how would you place them? How good a list is this? Just wondering........

The results were listed by ABC in reverse order.


Regards,
Mel


Classic 100 20th Century Countdown List:



100, ADAMS - Nixon in China

99, RAMIREZ - Misa Criolla

98, PROKOFIEV - Lieutenant Kije Suite

97, ADDINSELL - Warsaw Concerto

96, SHOSTAKOVICH - Symphony No.10 in E minor Op.93

95, TAVENER - Song for Athene

94, SIBELIUS - Symphony No. 7 in C major, Op. 105

93, ELGAR - Violin Concerto in B minor, Op.61

92, BRITTEN - Serenade for Tenor, Horn and Strings

91, LLOYD WEBBER - A Requiem: Pie Jesu

90, SHORE - Lord of the Rings

89, LEHAR - The Merry Widow

88, ELGAR - Dream of Gerontius

87, O'BOYLE - Concerto for Didgeridoo

86, VAUGHAN WILLIAMS - Fantasia on Greensleeves

85, WEILL - The Threepenny Opera: Prologue and Act 1

84, VILLA LOBOS - Bachianas Brazileiras No.5

83, RAVEL - Daphnis and Chloe

82, GLASS - Akhnaten

81, MESSIAEN - Turangalila-Symphonie

80, GRAINGER - Irish Tune from County Derry

79, BARBER - Violin Concerto Op.14

78, ELGAR - Symphony No.1 in A-flat Op.55

77, GERSHWIN - Piano Concerto in F

76, BERNSTEIN - Candide

75, STRAUSS - An Alpine Symphony Op 64

74, KORNGOLD - Violin Concerto in D, Op35

73, MAHLER - Symphony No 6 in A Minor

72, GERSHWIN - An American in Paris

71, BRITTEN - A Young Person's Guide to the Orchestra

70, BRITTEN - A Ceremony of Carols

69, RACHMANINOFF - Vespers Op. 37 (All Night Vigil)

68, JENKINS - The Armed Man: A Mass for Peace

67, DEBUSSY - Preludes

66, MAHLER - Symphony No.9 in D

65, PARRY - Jerusalem

64, RESPIGHI - Pini di Roma (Pines of Rome)

63, SCHOENBERG - Verklarte Nacht (Transfigured Night) for string sextet Op.4

62, RAVEL - Piano Concerto in G

61, MAHLER - Symphony No.4 in G

60, SHOSTAKOVICH - Symphony No.7 in C Op.60, 'Leningrad'

59, BRITTEN - War Requiem

58, MAHLER - Symphony No.8 in E-flat, 'Symphony of a Thousand'

57, PROKOFIEV - Symphony No.1 in D Op.25, 'Classical'

56, PART - Cantus in Memory of Benjamin Britten

55, CANTELOUBE - Chants d'Auvergne (Songs of the Auvergne)

54, RAVEL - Pavane pour une infante defunte (Pavane for a Dead Princess)

53, RESPIGHI - Ancient Airs and Dances

52, PUCCINI - Turandot

51, SCULTHORPE - Kakadu

50, BRITTEN - Peter Grimes

49, EDWARDS - Dawn Mantras

48, SHOSTAKOVICH - Gadfly Suite

47, STRAVINSKY - Petrushka

46, SCULTHORPE - Small Town

45, EDWARDS - Violin Concerto 'Maninyas'

44, RACHMANINOFF - Symphony No.2 in e minor Op.27

43, GLASS - Violin Concerto No.1

42, BARTOK - Concerto for Orchestra

41, MESSIAEN - Quatuor Pour Le Fin Du Temps

40, STRAUSS - Der Rosenkavalier, Op. 59

39, KATS-CHERNIN - Wild Swans

38, PROKOFIEV - Peter and the Wolf, Op. 67

37, RAVEL - String Quartet in F

36, MORRICONE - The Mission

35, STRAVINSKY - L'Oiseau de feu (The Firebird)

34, DEBUSSY - La Mer

33, MAHLER - Das Lied von der Erde (The Song of the Earth)

32, COPLAND - Fanfare for the Common Man

31, SHOSTAKOVICH - Symphony No.5 in d minor Op.47

30, SIBELIUS - Symphony No. 5

29, WESTLAKE - Antarctica Suite

28, PUCCINI - Tosca

27, SIBELIUS - Symphony No. 2 in D Major Op. 43

26, KHACHATURIAN - Spartacus

25, MAHLER - Symphony No.5 in c-sharp minor

24, GERSHWIN - Porgy and Bess

23, SIBELIUS - Violin Concerto in D minor, Op. 47

22, RACHMANINOFF - Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini Op.43

21, ELGAR - Pomp and Circumstance March No 1 in D Op.39

20, RAVEL - Bolero

19, RACHMANINOFF - Piano Concerto No.3 in D minor Op.30

18, COPLAND - Appalachian Spring

17, PUCCINI - Madama Butterfly

16, PART - Spiegel Im Spiegel

15, SIBELIUS - Finlandia

14, GORECKI - Symphony No.3 Op.36, 'Symphony of Sorrowful Songs'

13, BERNSTEIN - West Side Story

12, VAUGHAN WILLIAMS - Fantasia on a Theme by Thomas Tallis

11, STRAUSS - Vier letzte Lieder (Four Last Songs)

10, PROKOFIEV - Romeo and Juliet Op.64

9, STRAVINSKY - Le Sacre du printemps (The Rite of Spring)

8, ORFF - Carmina Burana

7, BARBER - Adagio For Strings

6, RODRIGO - Concierto de Aranjuez

5, RACHMANINOV - Piano Concerto No. 2

4, VAUGHAN WILLIAMS - The Lark Ascending

3, GERSHWIN - Rhapsody in Blue

2, HOLST - The Planets

1, ELGAR - Cello Concerto in E minor Op.85

[some guy]

Stupid?

Pointless?

Not even worth saying "stupid" and "pointless" about it?

[absinthe]

Nice to see a sprinkling of Austral composers near the front. Small as the work might be I'm fond of Sculthorpe's Small Town. A very diatonic work it's reminiscent of the "European" variations from Port Essington. They evoke the warmth of tropical places, a languor.

[IcedNote]

Amusing to see The Rite of Spring all the way down at #9.

-G

[John F]

Stupid?

Pointless?

Not even worth saying "stupid" and "pointless" about it?

Merely silly. Any list that sets Shostakovich's 10th symphony side by side with Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto as #s 96 and 97need be read no further. It might be interesting to know how this weirdness was arrived at, but we aren't told.

[jbuck919]

Nice to see a sprinkling of Austral composers near the front.

Oh, so that's what those are.

Amusing to see The Rite of Spring all the way down at #9.

Yes, I was sure I had guessed right on at least that one but was off by a few.

[Lance]

Interesting to see so many Rachmaninoff items thereon. I was happy to see Sibelius, 'specially the No. 2 Symphony and the Vespers in their top rundown, though, while 20th century compositions, they sure are right out of the Romantic period. Glad to see Ravel and Gershwin in the lineup, too. Personally, I would not have included many we see there, but the listing is "do-able." Like others, I wonder how ABC arrives at these numbers.

[arthound]

Stupid?

Pointless?

Not even worth saying "stupid" and "pointless" about it?

Merely silly. Any list that sets Shostakovich's 10th symphony side by side with Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto as #s 96 and 97need be read no further. It might be interesting to know how this weirdness was arrived at, but we aren't told.

Listeners to ABC Classic FM voted for their favourite 20th Century compositions - as such a high vote is representative of a works popularity not of its objective merit.

I listened to most of the broadcast and enjoyed it. They play backed listener’s comments - both positive and negative. My two oldest boys [2 and 5] liked it too - especially when they played 'Peter and the Wolf'!

Here is a link to a podcast of one section if anyone is interested:

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2 ... 374843.htm

The one composition whose absence really surprised me was Janacek's 'Sinfonietta'. They used the opening as theme music for the countdown - perhaps as a form of compensation!

[RebLem]

I note there is not a single work by Bela Bartok and not a single work of solo instrumental or chamber music. Lord of the Rings is? Really? This is just garbage.

[arthound]

I note there is not a single work by Bela Bartok and not a single work of solo instrumental or chamber music. Lord of the Rings is? Really? This is just garbage.

Bartok's 'Concerto for Orchestra' came in at number 42 well above the soundtrack for TLOTR at number 90.

And while it is true that large scale works were more popular Ravel's Quartet is at number 37, Messiaen's 'Quartet for the end of time' is at number 41 and Debussy's 'Preludes' came in at number 67.

It's a popularity poll - not a critic's choice.

[barney]

Yes, it's as valid as any other such poll, which is to say not very. But it's fun. I like to read such lists, but I'm more likely to shrug than splutter with fury.

[Donaldopato]

If it were billed as a list of the 20th Century's most important or influential works it would be laughable. As a list of favorites, it is amusing and even interesting.

[Seán]

Ma.. Mah.. Mahle-ah oh dear. Ahem, excuse me. Mahler's Ninth down in the sixties with Elgar and Yawn Williams in top spot? Worthy of consideraton? Yeah right.

Good manners and common decency prevent me from writing what I really think.

[absinthe]

It's good to see as much popular interest in this music and I'm as surprised about the Messiaen as anyone. I mean, sure, Le Sacre and Carmina Burana but...Messiaen Quartet? Turangalila...? Not the easiest pieces to whistle.

[arglebargle]

The Ravel quartet is a surpise for me - probably thought they were voting for Bolero?

[Chalkperson]

I think we should ignore these Antipodean Polls in the future, it's a waste of Bandwidth...

[jbuck919]

I think we should ignore these Antipodean Polls in the future, it's a waste of Bandwidth...

You mean it's OK if they come from the Northern Hemisphere?

[Seán]

Stupid?

Pointless?

I agree.

Not even worth saying "stupid" and "pointless" about it?

Ah, it is.

[Wallingford]

I wouldn't be so hard on the list....merely lacks a good share of solo piano & chamber works.

[Wallingford]

Really, that's the same problem with any other such list I've seen. Or those compilers of "basic library" repertoire.

[Lance]

Of course! You always are the ultimate gentleman. I do sincerely applaud you!

Ma.. Mah.. Mahle-ah oh dear. Ahem, excuse me. Mahler's Ninth down in the sixties with Elgar and Yawn Williams in top spot? Worthy of consideraton? Yeah right.

Good manners and common decency prevent me from writing what I really think.

[Agnes Selby]

Well, people have different tastes and the ABC asked listeners to
write in their preferences. It is not a reflection
on Australian music making nor on the programming of the ABC.

Music is doing extremely well in Sydney where I live. The Sydney Symphony
Orchestra season is fully subscribed as are all other concerts at the
Sydney Opera House and City Recital Hall. Young people attend concerts
because they participate in music at school. We have produced
excellent musicians who entertain you world-wide and just think
of the opera singers!!!! None of our orchestras have declared bancruptsy
and everything is going swimmingly.

In fact, I am surprised that some of you scoff at the list. Any such poll
taken in America or Europe would have similar results when people are
asked to list their prefrences. Preferences differ just as people do
no matter where they live. This was not a list of the best composers
but a fun list for ABC listeners to participate in.

Regards,
Agnes Selby, living happily in Australia.

[barney]

Well said, Agnes!

And if an American version omitted Sculthorpe and Edwards, that would be both their loss and a reflection of the narrow jingoistic bias of American music listeners.

I quite agree...

[barney]

How did Gershwin make an Australian list? Goodness, we are an educated, cosmpolitan lot down under!

[Seán]

Well, people have different tastes and the ABC asked listeners to
write in their preferences. It is not a reflection
on Australian music making nor on the programming of the ABC.

Music is doing extremely well in Sydney where I live. The Sydney Symphony
Orchestra season is fully subscribed as are all other concerts at the
Sydney Opera House and City Recital Hall. Young people attend concerts
because they participate in music at school. We have produced
excellent musicians who entertain you world-wide and just think
of the opera singers!!!! None of our orchestras have declared bancruptsy
and everything is going swimmingly.

That is very good news indeed, I am delighted to hear it.

In fact, I am surprised that some of you scoff at the list. Any such poll
taken in America or Europe would have similar results when people are
asked to list their prefrences. Preferences differ just as people do
no matter where they live. This was not a list of the best composers
but a fun list for ABC listeners to participate in.

Regards,
Agnes Selby, living happily in Australia.

Dear Agnes, I am guilty as charged, I suppose I was offended that Elgar and Yawn are held in higher regard than Gustav Mahler, I shouldn't be, I know.

Regards
Seán Dunne, delighted that Agnes is living happily in Australia.

[Sator]

I cringed my way through the whole list. I followed it on ABC radio and was hoping for better.

When the Elgar came through at Nr 1 I lost all faith. Australia really does suffer from a petty colonialist mentality. I imagine the people who voted for that one want God Save the Queen reinstated as the one-and-only national anthem.

Arghh Elgar??? I mean Elgar ????? gasp.

[Sator]

The Ravel quartet is a surpise for me - probably thought they were voting for Bolero?

There are a coupling of surprisingly good things in there. I do suspect it is the work of a bunch of students studying string instruments doing some block voting - getting their friends and family who have never heard of Ravel in their life to cast a vote.

The other surprises include how high Le Sacre and the Strauss Vier Letzte Lieder managed to get. So it isn't total despair and gloom. Even Schoenberg managed to get a sniff. Alban Berg's Violin Concerto was number 101.

[absinthe]

Well, people have different tastes and the ABC asked listeners to
write in their preferences. It is not a reflection
on Australian music making nor on the programming of the ABC.

Music is doing extremely well in Sydney where I live. The Sydney Symphony
Orchestra season is fully subscribed as are all other concerts at the
Sydney Opera House and City Recital Hall. Young people attend concerts
because they participate in music at school. We have produced
excellent musicians who entertain you world-wide and just think
of the opera singers!!!! None of our orchestras have declared bancruptsy
and everything is going swimmingly.

In fact, I am surprised that some of you scoff at the list. Any such poll
taken in America or Europe would have similar results when people are
asked to list their prefrences. Preferences differ just as people do
no matter where they live. This was not a list of the best composers
but a fun list for ABC listeners to participate in.

Regards,
Agnes Selby, living happily in Australia.

No scoffing, Agnes.
Since Messiaen got two look-ins, I could have hoped that Carl Vine and Richard Meale might have received one each at least. Atonal, Meale might be but he's most listenable - in the realm of the surreal.

There's serious music here.

[absinthe]

How did Gershwin make an Australian list? Goodness, we are an educated, cosmpolitan lot down under!

Yup. Given you have a Welsh PM!

[Agnes Selby]

How did Gershwin make an Australian list? Goodness, we are an educated, cosmpolitan lot down under!

Yup. Given you have a Welsh PM!

Ha, Ha! We have it all! A lot of Irish and Welsh, a lot of people
from all over the world all living in harmony.

Just think, my grandkids have Welsh, Italian, Irish, Hungarian, Slovak and
Russian in their blood!!!! It makes for an interesting goulash.

[THEHORN]

Well, there are so many other wonderful works by so many composers ,I really don't see the point in it.
The ranking is also completely arbitrary . I wouldn't put the Warsaw Concerto on any list of great music ; it's just
watered down Rachmaninov .
How about the symphonies of Nielsen , the operas of Wagner,Verdi's Otello, Falstaff and the Requiem ,
the Shostakovich 8th , 10, 14th and 15th symphonies, his Lady Macbeth o0f Mtsensk District, Janacek's Jenufa,
Katya Kabanova, Cunning Little Vixen , From the House of the Dead, the Sinfonietta ,
Dvorak's symphonies,not just the New World, the cello concerto, Roussel's 3rs symphony and Bacchus&Ariane,The Spider's Feast , Borodin's 2nd symphony , Hindemith's Mathis Der Maler symphony and Symphonic Metamorphoses on Weber themes, and so forth .

[Sator]

^ This is the 20th century top 100.

Neither Verdi nor Wagner's works were written in the 20th century. Very few of Dvořák's works are 20th century works eg Rusalka, Armida. Borodin died in 1887.

For the record, I didn't vote. Forgot to get my say in on time. I am always torn between voting for my genuine favourite picks vs voting for a candidate that I want to push up higher in the rankings. I think that voting for the Boulez Pli Selon Pli or the Schoenberg 2nd String Quartet would have been a total waste of time anyway. However, I would have gladly voted for Le Sacre if it helped push it above Carmina Burana

I still can't get over the fact that 3 of the top 5 were British composers. I wonder what the rankings would have been if the BBC were to repeat this. If an American, Russian, Italian, Japanese, French or German classical radio station did it, you'd be lucky if between all of them you got 3 British compositions in the top 100. In France, Elgar wouldn't feature in the top 1000 - les rosbifs composent la musique? However I don't think you guys in the US have a nation wide public classical music station do you? Even the serious German classical radio stations are regional eg NDR, SWR, WDR, Bayerischen RF etc. The Japanese have the NHK. I'm not sure about Italy, France or Russia. If the New Zealanders on their Concert Programme did it, all of the top 20 would be British compositions: they still think that they are part of the British Empire

[Agnes Selby]

During the 1980s when we lived in Philadelphia, we seldom heard
an American performer with the Philadelphia Orchestra. Philadelphians
favoured Russian soloists and for better or worse, I could have been
quite happy without their banging and posturing.

As for Bartok missing on the list, no one played Bartok at the
Curtis Institute of Music. It is on the record that Kathryn, our daughter
was the only youngster participating in the Philadelphia Orchestra competition who
chose Bartok's No 1 piano concerto for the competition. When she won,
Ormandy decided to conduct the orchestra himself, relegating Mr. Smith to
rehearsals only. And it was not Mrs. Sokoloff at Curtis who taught Bartok to Kathryn
but it was Ms. Salas her Australian teacher who introduced Bartok's music
to Kathy. Ms. Salas was a pupil of Bartok's and was the President of the
Bartok Society of Australia. To this day, students at the Sydney Conservatorium
of Music are required to perform Bartok's music in their music examinations.

I would like to repeat that the above list is neither a critic's choice nor and overall
list of what people listen to in Australia. It is the choice of individual participants
in a fun program.

What do you think Americans would like to listen to?

[Sator]

Actually, Bartók did make the list. The Concerto for Orchestra is at Nr 42. The Music for Strings, Percussion & Celeste made it to Nr 102, just behind the Berg Violin Concerto at 101.

BTW, since this list is the intellectual property of ABC Radio, we should have a link to the original source:

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2 ... 335065.htm

The ones that just missed out:

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2 ... 384927.htm

I still think that this list speaks volumes about the Australian listener. We all know that the demographic of the ABC Classic audience is going to be mostly older, politically conservative, and more affluent. Many of these people grew up in a time when THE National Anthem here was God Save the Queen or even the King if you go back to pre-coronation times. Well within living memory, there was no other official national anthem. Traditionally, conservative Australia has been pro-monarchist and the liberals pro-republican. This goes back a long way, and when the Labour government deliberately omitted British Royalty off the invitation list for the ceremonial opening of the Sydney Harbour Bridge, a pro-fascist and ultra right monarchist extremist on horseback jumped in and cut the ribbons first in an act of protest.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall at the ABC as they discussed the implications of the voting to their programming. The ABC have a reputation, rightly or wrongly, for being a liberal leaning organisation. At least one of the more popular announcers was a bit of a hippy in her youth, according to one interview with her daughter which I read recently. So left to their own devices, a liberal arts organisation tends to broadcast contemporary compositions with native Aboriginal themes incorporated in it, or else something like Nono's Intolleranza. However, the audience, seems to have voted for the ABC to broadcast Pomp & Circumstance marches and Land and Hope of Glory day and night.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3445307/s ... lory_1931/

[Chalkperson]

BTW, since this list is the intellectual property of ABC Radio...

It may be their property, but it's a long way from intellectual...

[Sator]

^ What are you saying Chalkie? So if you had everyone across American voting for their favourite 20th century composition, are you suggesting that the list would be full to the brim with works by Anton Webern, Elliott Carter and Milton Babbitt?

[barney]

^ What are you saying Chalkie? So if you had everyone across American voting for their favourite 20th composition, are you suggesting that the list would be full to the brim with works by Anton Webern, Elliott Carter and Milton Babbitt?

Forget America. What is Chalkie's top 100. Post it, my CMG friend, so we can sneer at you. A top 10 will do, or a top 20.

[Agnes Selby]

Our son and I were flying home to Sydney via San Francisco when we overheard
a conversation between an elderly man and a young man sitting
behind us.

"Where are you going" asked the older man.
"Home to Sydney" replied the young man.
"Ah, you are Australian. Funny thing, I never read anything in the
New York Times about Australia" said the older man.
"That's the way we like it", replied the young man.

The same applies to the above insults levelled at Australians by the
members of this board. In truth, we really don't care what you think
of us.

Agnes.

[Chalkperson]

^ What are you saying Chalkie? So if you had everyone across American voting for their favourite 20th composition, are you suggesting that the list would be full to the brim with works by Anton Webern, Elliott Carter and Milton Babbitt?

Forget America. What is Chalkie's top 100. Post it, my CMG friend, so we can sneer at you. A top 10 will do, or a top 20.

Jeez, I meant that the method of making the Poll, ie from Radio Listeners, is far from Intellectual...same applies to any Country trying this...

My List...

Morton Feldman...everything he ever wrote...

[stenka razin]

^ What are you saying Chalkie? So if you had everyone across American voting for their favourite 20th composition, are you suggesting that the list would be full to the brim with works by Anton Webern, Elliott Carter and Milton Babbitt?

Forget America. What is Chalkie's top 100. Post it, my CMG friend, so we can sneer at you. A top 10 will do, or a top 20.

Jeez, I meant that the method of making the Poll, ie from Radio Listeners, is far from Intellectual...same applies to any Country trying this...

My List...

Morton Feldman...everything he ever wrote...

For Chalkie:





Regards,
Mel

[some guy]

I would hope that this could be a list that would give everyone pause.

And I would hope that nationalism would make no part of it at all. Lists of this sort could come out of any country, especially if made by radio audiences. Being Australian has nothing to do with it.

Indeed, CMG could make a list of this sort and it would be just as skewed, just as incomplete, and just as silly. Only a list made by people who have been immersed in modern music for several decades would stand a chance of being even a little bit valid.

Fun, though? I suppose any list of this sort is fun. In the same way that watching Jersey Shore is fun. Or Cheaters: Too hot for TV.

Schadenfreude is still Freude.

[Agnes Selby]

I would hope that this could be a list that would give everyone pause.

And I would hope that nationalism would make no part of it at all. Lists of this sort could come out of any country, especially if made by radio audiences. Being Australian has nothing to do with it.

Indeed, CMG could make a list of this sort and it would be just as skewed, just as incomplete, and just as silly. Only a list made by people who have been immersed in modern music for several decades would stand a chance of being even a little bit valid.

Fun, though? I suppose any list of this sort is fun. In the same way that watching Jersey Shore is fun. Or Cheaters: Too hot for TV.

Schadenfreude is still Freude.

I am not aware that the ABC asked listeners for their preference in modern music.
I believe the ABC asked listeners to list what they liked to hear. Where does Schadenfreude
come into it?

However, I do appreciate the fact that not everyone in Australia shares
the sophisticated tastes of the members of this board.

[some guy]

I do appreciate the fact that not everyone in Australia shares
the sophisticated tastes of the members of this board.

If this is sarcasm, it is as fine as any I've ever seen. If it's not, well, never mind!!

[Chalkperson]

For Chalkie:





Regards,
Mel

In time, the World will finally recognize the true Genius that was Morton Feldman, they may also remember that he had a friend who also Composed, his name, let me think, right, it was John Cage...

[stenka razin]

For Chalkie:





Regards,
Mel

In time, the World will finally recognize the true Genius that was Morton Feldman, they may also remember that he had a friend who also Composed, his name, let me think, right, it was John Cage...

Chalkie, here is John Cage in conversation with Morton Feldman. A pricelss tape of the two great artists:

http://bit.ly/ct3pG3


Regards,
Mel

[some guy]

Cool!!

Where are the other four?