Le Rat gets a new Gong from the Queen...

[Chalkperson]

There really is no accounting for taste, in a move I find shocking, her beloved Majesty Queen Elisabeth V2 has decided to bestow the Royal Order of Merit on the highly overrated conductor Sir Simon Rattle.

This is no ordinary gong, in fact there are only 24 members of this once auspicious club. You have to wait for an existing member to pass away before a new one can be sworn in. Normally this little enclave was the stuff of world class members, Florence Nightingale, Nelson Mandela, Baden Powell, Churchill, Eisenhower, Mother Teresa, to name but a few.

So in a move that truly makes a mockery out of the entire honorary system Le Rat gets to join. Words fail me.

Mediocrity really does sell, I guess. Not content with dragging down the once mighty BSO Le Rat now drags down the Gong industry.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honou ... Merit.aspx

[jbuck919]

It does seem unfair that they gave it to Mother Teresa without balancing it with a recognition for Christopher Hitchens.

Chalkie, you may not be familiar with the association Americans make with the term "getting the gong," but you will love it as it might apply to your opinion of Sir Simon. In the 70s there was a TV show called The Gong Show, in which a mixture of real talent and really awful acts made brief appearances before a panel. To bring the bad acts to a quick close, any panelist was allowed to step up and strike a gong, as in the following:

[Chalkperson]

I remember the Gong Show with great fondness, there is widespread opinion in the UK that the whole Royal Gong Show should be scrapped.

They gave a gong to the Doctor who delivered the Royal Baby, but not to the folks that deliver the Royal Mail, instead the Conservatives sold it.

[lennygoran]

Chalkie, you may not be familiar with the association Americans make with the term "getting the gong," but you will love it as it might apply to your opinion of Sir Simon.

So you think this will help him with the saberRATTLEing! Regards, Len [on the run]

[stenka razin]

Chalkie, so, is this the same honor bestowed on Benjamin Britten? Shall we know call Sir Simon, Lord Rattle? That has such a nice ring to it? Doesn't it? Or are they trying to lure him back to the British Isles?........ Remember Sir Simon's Berlin gig is up in 2018............I wonder.........


Regards and Happy New Year to all of our CMGers,
Mel

[Ted Quanrud]

Chalkie, so, is this the same honor bestowed on Benjamin Britten? Shall we know call Sir Simon, Lord Rattle? That has such a nice ring to it? Doesn't it? Or are they trying to lure him back to the British Isles?........ Remember Sir Simon's Berlin gig is up in 2018............I wonder.........


Regards and Happy New Year to all of our CMGers,
Mel

Hi Mel --

He is Sir Simon for now. The Order of Merit doesn't carry a title. Britten was also an OM (1965), but was later created a life peer (1976) and was thus known as Lord Britten of Aldeburgh.

I certainly share Chalkie's dismay with this turn of events, believing Rattle's eminence is more the result of PR and marketing, than actual talent. It's especially bothersome because the OM and the Companions of Honour are selected by the queen, unlike the other gongs that are the chosen by politicians.

Other gongs in this year's New Year's Honours list include a Companion of Honor for Sir Peter Maxwell Davies (well deserved, I think) and a OBE for the Welsh crossover soprano Katherine Jenkins for her contributions to music and services to charity. I am less than enthusiastic about Ms. Jenkins' musical accomplishments, although she is certainly an eyeful, but she has done much for charitable causes.

The two annual gong shows -- the New Year's Honour's and the Queen's Birthday Honours -- seem to have been rather unkind to classical music in recent years. George Bush's lapdog, Tony Blair, was almost hostile to it, while the tastes of the current PM are distinctly pop-oriented.

[Chalkperson]

One of my favorite pianists, and a very funny Twitterer, @houghhough Stephen Hough was made a CBE.

The Rattle award proves that all the lists are political, even the Order of Merit which is supposedly the Queens personal award. Normally the Brits don't like it when someone moves abroad for work and forgets about their country of birth, but, Le Rat is very likely to be named principal conductor of the LSO after Gergiev leaves in 2015.

The Order of Merit is not given out every year, it can only be awarded upon the death of another member, so in all likelihood Rattle is being given this so that when he returns triumphantly to lead a British Orchestra again he will already be a member of this most exclusive club, allowing the LSO to pimp him out as such.

I have a couple of very famous friends who turned down Gongs, sadly Le Rat has not done the same.

[stenka razin]

Chalkie, so, is this the same honor bestowed on Benjamin Britten? Shall we know call Sir Simon, Lord Rattle? That has such a nice ring to it? Doesn't it? Or are they trying to lure him back to the British Isles?........ Remember Sir Simon's Berlin gig is up in 2018............I wonder.........


Regards and Happy New Year to all of our CMGers,
Mel

Hi Mel --

He is Sir Simon for now. The Order of Merit doesn't carry a title. Britten was also an OM (1965), but was later created a life peer (1976) and was thus known as Lord Britten of Aldeburgh.

I certainly share Chalkie's dismay with this turn of events, believing Rattle's eminence is more the result of PR and marketing, than actual talent. It's especially bothersome because the OM and the Companions of Honour are selected by the queen, unlike the other gongs that are the chosen by politicians.

Other gongs in this year's New Year's Honours list include a Companion of Honor for Sir Peter Maxwell Davies (well deserved, I think) and a OBE for the Welsh crossover soprano Katherine Jenkins for her contributions to music and services to charity. I am less than enthusiastic about Ms. Jenkins' musical accomplishments, although she is certainly an eyeful, but she has done much for charitable causes.

The two annual gong shows -- the New Year's Honour's and the Queen's Birthday Honours -- seem to have been rather unkind to classical music in recent years. George Bush's lapdog, Tony Blair, was almost hostile to it, while the tastes of the current PM are distinctly pop-oriented.

Ted, thank you very much for the info. It is so hard to figure out the Queens Honours list. But, you definitely helped me, my friend.


Regards,
Mel

[stenka razin]

By the way, in glancing at the full list, the distinguished pianist, Stephen Hough was given a CBE or was that an MBE? Whatever, he definitely deserves an honor, especially when you see Katherine Jenkins as one of the new musical honorees. The Awards committee is still trying to please the masses musically and that should make Katherine's many fans happy.


Regards,
Mel

[Chalkperson]

By the way, in glancing at the full list, the distinguished pianist, Stephen Hough was given a CBE or was that an MBE? Whatever, he definitely deserves an honor, especially when you see Katherine Jenkins as one of the new musical honorees. The Awards committee is still trying to please the masses musically and that should make Katherine's many fans happy.


Regards,
Mel

He got a CBE, That's a higher honor than an OBE or MBE

The chivalrous hierarchy works like this.

Knight or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)
Knight or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE)
Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE)
Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE)
Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE)

[ContrapunctusIX]

personally I think the entire "MBE/CBE/OBE" concept is yet another manifestation of the overblown and unmistakably British obsession with pomp & circumstance, and I don't much care one way or the other about it. That being said, if they are going to start handing these honors out to the likes of hacks such as "Sir" Rattle, they ought to do away with the tradition altogether.

(ducks for cover)

[jbuck919]

By the way, in glancing at the full list, the distinguished pianist, Stephen Hough was given a CBE or was that an MBE? Whatever, he definitely deserves an honor, especially when you see Katherine Jenkins as one of the new musical honorees. The Awards committee is still trying to please the masses musically and that should make Katherine's many fans happy.


Regards,
Mel

He got a CBE, That's a higher honor than an OBE or MBE

The chivalrous hierarchy works like this.

Knight or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)
Knight or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE)
Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE)
Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE)
Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE)

And that leaves out all the less excellent orders. Sort of reminds me of the degrees of membership in the American Guild of Organists.

On the matter of honors in the queen's gift being political, of course they have to be. She must rely on advisers and they will have motives other than absolute excellence. The only other possibility is that she literally researches the whole thing herself (or with the help of apolitical staff of her own choosing), and that might produce even more disastrous results. That gong might have gone to Telly Savalas.

[John F]

When I look at the list of current members of the Order of Merit, I see almost nobody whose name means anything to me. Adding Simon Rattle to that list actually upgrades it, as far as international recognition by the general public is concerned. The only ones I recognize without prompting are Rattle, David Attenborough, David Hockney, and Tom Stoppard, and to me they seem arbitrary choices from their professions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit#Members

As for the various levels of the Order of the British Empire, seems to me that OBEs are handed out like party favors, and are joked about as much as they are respected if not more so. Anyway, there is no British Empire any longer, so how can a contemporary honor named for it amount to much?

Outside the UK, the only honors that mean anything are knighthood and a peerage. It seems that most classical musicians who achieve international fame are eventually knighted, and hardly any are made Lords or Ladies - Britten is the only one who comes to mind, and that struck me as odd at the time and still does.

I guess you have to be British to appreciate the nuances. Even an anglophile like me doesn't much care.

[jbuck919]

When I look at the list of current members of the Order of Merit, I see almost nobody whose name means anything to me. Adding Simon Rattle to that list actually upgrades it, as far as international recognition by the general public is concerned. The only ones I recognize without prompting are Rattle, David Attenborough, David Hockney, and Tom Stoppard, and to me they seem arbitrary choices from their professions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit#Members

Oh come on, you never heard of the Duke of Edinburgh? (Why he needs that honor is beyond me.) Or Jean Chrétien, former Prime Minister of Canada? (Now there's an arbitrary choice.) I know of Roger Penrose because he is a very important mathematician, who unlike the great majority of them has had an intersection with fame, at least if one reads Scientific American and such. And that's it for me, besides the ones you mentioned.

I see that the position left by the death of Nelson Mandela is vacant.

[Chalkperson]

When I look at the list of current members of the Order of Merit, I see almost nobody whose name means anything to me. Adding Simon Rattle to that list actually upgrades it, as far as international recognition by the general public is concerned. The only ones I recognize without prompting are Rattle, David Attenborough, David Hockney, and Tom Stoppard, and to me they seem arbitrary choices from their professions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Merit#Members

As for the various levels of the Order of the British Empire, seems to me that OBEs are handed out like party favors, and are joked about as much as they are respected if not more so. Anyway, there is no British Empire any longer, so how can a contemporary honor named for it amount to much?

Outside the UK, the only honors that mean anything are knighthood and a peerage. It seems that most classical musicians who achieve international fame are eventually knighted, and hardly any are made Lords or Ladies - Britten is the only one who comes to mind, and that struck me as odd at the time and still does.

I guess you have to be British to appreciate the nuances. Even an anglophile like me doesn't much care.

Of course it's all a national joke, they can pass out thousands of MBE's if they want, it's a farce, but I will defend the choice of Stoppard. Hockney and Attenborough. They are far from arbitrary I think, in their own field they are the finest example, this little enclave is supposed to be just that, as for Lords you need to have a seat in the house to sit in before you can qualify, so conductors and musicians are hardly the type of person to sit in the other House at Parliament. The only Conductors ever promoted to the Order of Merit were Sir John Barbitolli and Sir Henry Wood, Conductor for 50 years of the Promenade Concerts. They got the award late in life, hence my objection to Le a Rat who is only ten days older than myself and indeed younger than John B. Our esteemed John B. Not the Italian ice cream selling conductor, Johnny B.

Although the Lords let in Lloyd Webber, but his contribution to the "gross" national product of the UK was indeed a factor. Plus he paid a fortune for the slab of land associated with his feifdom, the Lords are still to a major degree hereditary. Mind you, Lords pale in comparison to Earl's in that godawful high society that still, to a large degree, runs Britain.

The wife of a knight is a Lady, the female equivalent of a Lord is a Duchess.

[Chalkperson]

I don't think Britten's Life Peerage is that surprising sctually he only accepted it in the final year of his life, and it assured his position as the greatest British Composer since Purcell.

[jbuck919]

The wife of a knight is a Lady, the female equivalent of a Lord is a Duchess.

Yes, and the female equivalent of "Sir" for a knight as opposed to the wife of one is "Dame." But female peers? Now I'm confused. She'd only be a Duchess if she were created that, wouldn't she? The other levels of peerage have their own titles for women who hold them in their own right, do they not? You know, like the Viscountess Beaconsfield, who actually was granted the title in her own right rather than her husband Disraeli.

[Chalkperson]

The wife of a knight is a Lady, the female equivalent of a Lord is a Duchess.

Yes, and the female equivalent of "Sir" for a knight as opposed to the wife of one is "Dame." But female peers? Now I'm confused. She'd only be a Duchess if she were created that, wouldn't she? The other levels of peerage have their own titles for women who hold them in their own right, do they not? You know, like the Viscountess Beaconsfield, who actually was granted the title in her own right rather than her husband Disraeli.

The wife or daughter of any Knight, Lord etc is also Lady. I worded it badly, I figured we all knew what a Dame is. In Disraeli's case he could not be a Peer and sit in the House of Commons, so they gave the title to his wife. He assumed the title of Earl when he became the Prime Minster. There are not a lot of Viscounts, it's given in many case to the son of an Earl, or its a secondary title.

[John F]

Oh come on, you never heard of the Duke of Edinburgh? (Why he needs that honor is beyond me.)

I don't count the Duke of Edinburgh and the Prince of Wales because they aren't members honoris causa, merely because their wife/mum let them in.

Or Jean Chrétien, former Prime Minister of Canada? (Now there's an arbitrary choice.)

Nope. How many former Prime Ministers of Canada can you name without looking them up? The only one I remember off the top of my head is Pierre Trudeau.

[John F]

The wife of a knight is a Lady, the female equivalent of a Lord is a Duchess.

Right you are. She was Lady Thatcher after 1990, but it was being made Baroness of Kesteven that got her into the Lords. Kesteven is where she went to school; it wasn't a barony at the time. "Baron" is just about the lowest rank of the English aristocracy, I believe, and entails no property or other rights except for a seat in the Lords.

[lennygoran]

very important

I'm so glad for whatever the merits of that award are that David Attenborough is getting recognition--over many years we have just loved his Nature Shows--his contribution imo is tops! Regards, Len

[lennygoran]

Although the Lords let in Lloyd Webber, but his contribution to the "gross" national product of the UK was indeed a factor.

Not to mention those great musicals--Phantom and Evita--in their field just superb works! Regards, Len

[jbuck919]

Or Jean Chrétien, former Prime Minister of Canada? (Now there's an arbitrary choice.)

Nope. How many former Prime Ministers of Canada can you name without looking them up? The only one I remember off the top of my head is Pierre Trudeau.

Evidently at least one more than you can. I don't fault you for not recognizing a specific Canadian PM, but name recognition is not the same as being able to produce a list of those in the same category. I'd recognize any Secretary of State since WW II without being able to name them all from out of my head. In how many categories could either of us produce any but the sparsest list? Figures in music and to an extent other arts because of our special interest, and then I can list all the presidents of the United States and the monarchs of England since Richard III in order; but after that it gets real shaky real quick.

[John F]

Let me put it this way. The names of former Canadian prime ministers, or even the present one, is information for which I have no use and foresee none. It's not even in Trivial Pursuit, at least the edition of the game we were playing at my brother's house last week. Why make an issue of it, then?

[lennygoran]

but name recognition is not the same as being able to produce a list of those in the same category.

Then there's my situation--you put the names of composers in front of me and I think they're pastas! Regards, Len

[John F]

Not mentioned yet is that composer Peter Maxwell Davies has been made a Companion of Honour, "sometimes regarded as the junior order to the Order of Merit" according to Wikipedia. Some other musicians and artists have also been honored in the New Year's List.

December 31, 2013
Simon Rattle Among the Artists on Queen Elizabeth’s Honors List
By ALLAN KOZINN

The arts figure prominently among those included Queen Elizabeth II’s New Year’s Honors List, with two marquee names from the classical music world who have already been knighted gaining additional recognition.

Sir Peter Maxwell Davies, the composer and Master of the Queen’s Music (a 10-year position that he holds until March) is being made a Companion of Honor, an order that recognizes achievements in the arts, science, politics, industry and religion. Sir Simon Rattle, the Liverpool-born conductor who now directs the Berlin Philharmonic, joins the Order of Merit, a group of 24 high achievers selected by the Queen, in which Mr. Rattle is currently the only musician.

The actresses Angela Lansbury and Penelope Keith, and the choreographer Gillian Lynne, became Dames of the British Empire. Knighthoods were awarded to the sculptor Antony Gormley and the film and theater director Michael Codron. The pianist Stephen Hough and the opera and theater director John Copley were made Commanders of the British Empire, as were the actor Michael Crawford and the dancer Carlos Acosta. And the soprano Katherine Jenkins received the Order of the British Empire.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/ ... nors-list/

For those who want to see the complete list, it's here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... lists-2014

[Seán]

By the way, in glancing at the full list, the distinguished pianist, Stephen Hough was given a CBE or was that an MBE? Whatever, he definitely deserves an honor, especially when you see Katherine Jenkins as one of the new musical honorees. The Awards committee is still trying to please the masses musically and that should make Katherine's many fans happy.


Regards,
Mel

He got a CBE, That's a higher honor than an OBE or MBE

The chivalrous hierarchy works like this.

Knight or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)
Knight or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE)
Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE)
Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE)
Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE)

All they need now is a new british empire, someone should tell them that their subjects sent them home from their last one with their tails between their legs. They might even loose Scotland next.

[Chalkperson]

The wife of a knight is a Lady, the female equivalent of a Lord is a Duchess.

Right you are. She was Lady Thatcher after 1990, but it was being made Baroness of Kesteven that got her into the Lords. Kesteven is where she went to school; it wasn't a barony at the time. "Baron" is just about the lowest rank of the English aristocracy, I believe, and entails no property or other rights except for a seat in the Lords.

A Baron is only marginally higher in rank than a Knight, also worth noting is that the husband of a Dame receives no title, he remains a commoner.

[Chalkperson]

By the way, in glancing at the full list, the distinguished pianist, Stephen Hough was given a CBE or was that an MBE? Whatever, he definitely deserves an honor, especially when you see Katherine Jenkins as one of the new musical honorees. The Awards committee is still trying to please the masses musically and that should make Katherine's many fans happy.


Regards,
Mel

He got a CBE, That's a higher honor than an OBE or MBE

The chivalrous hierarchy works like this.

Knight or Dame Grand Cross of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (GBE)
Knight or Dame Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (KBE)
Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (CBE)
Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (OBE)
Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (MBE)

All they need now is a new british empire, someone should tell them that their subjects sent them home from their last one with their tails between their legs. They might even loose Scotland next.

The closest the British will ever get to an a Empire again is by supplying the Umpire in an International Cricket Match...

[barney]

I was born in London and am thus eligible for a knighthood, an honour Australia abolished long ago. Unaccountably I am still being overlooked, which raises serious questions about the gongs system.

Regarding losing the Scots, you are right, Sean - that would be an improvement. As George MacDonald Fraser wrote,the only reason England won an empire against savage and primitive foes was that it had its own savage and primitive fighters leading the fighting wearing skirts and playing the banshee instrument (I am paraphrasing a little,but th sentiment is right). It has never been better expressed than by those musical philosophers Flanders and Swann. Do yourself a favour and watch the whole three and a half minutes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

Happy new year to all.

PS, I put in the link above between the youtube code we are invited to use above posts and it disappeared entirely. Thus the truncated form now.

[jbuck919]

PS, I put in the link above between the youtube code we are invited to use above posts and it disappeared entirely. Thus the truncated form now.

You have to delete everything in the link up to and including the equals sign.

[barney]

PS, I put in the link above between the youtube code we are invited to use above posts and it disappeared entirely. Thus the truncated form now.

You have to delete everything in the link up to and including the equals sign.

aha thanks. I do seem to struggle with codes. Obviously don't do it enough. Anyway, you probably know this clip, but if you don't - happy listening!

[jbuck919]

PS, I put in the link above between the youtube code we are invited to use above posts and it disappeared entirely. Thus the truncated form now.

You have to delete everything in the link up to and including the equals sign.

aha thanks. I do seem to struggle with codes. Obviously don't do it enough. Anyway, you probably know this clip, but if you don't - happy listening!

I didn't know the clip, and now that I have listened to it, I do.

[THEHORN]

I beg to differ regarding Sir Simon . You don't get appointed principal conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic
through slick publicity .No conductor has ever or will ever become music director of any top orchestra or
opera company through cynical hype .
Like his conducting or not, Rattle is no mediocrity . If the members of the BPO had found Rattle to be
a lousy conductor , they would not even have invited him back as a guest after his first appearance with them
back in 1987 . They choose the conductors who appear with them and who becomes their chief , as they are
self-governing entity .
It's the same with the vastly underrated Zubin Mehta , who has unfortunately been treated like crap
by many music critics . Yet he too has been a regular guest with the BPO for nearly 50 years .
The classical music world is not like the world of pop music, where mediocrities can and do make
successful careers through slick publicity alone .

[Chalkperson]

I beg to differ regarding Sir Simon . You don't get appointed principal conductor of the Berlin Philharmonic
through slick publicity .No conductor has ever or will ever become music director of any top orchestra or
opera company through cynical hype .
Like his conducting or not, Rattle is no mediocrity . If the members of the BPO had found Rattle to be
a lousy conductor , they would not even have invited him back as a guest after his first appearance with them
back in 1987 . They choose the conductors who appear with them and who becomes their chief , as they are
self-governing entity .
It's the same with the vastly underrated Zubin Mehta , who has unfortunately been treated like crap
by many music critics . Yet he too has been a regular guest with the BPO for nearly 50 years .
The classical music world is not like the world of pop music, where mediocrities can and do make
successful careers through slick publicity alone .

Simon Rattle's contract with EMI has a lot to do with why the BPO want to keep him. They get a lot of money for playing on his recordings, his mediocrity has been proven with these discs, that's where the BPO has become a second rate orchestra.

$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$

[Chalkperson]

To give you a better idea of how pointless the whole "Honours" system is, the British Prime Minister, David Cameroon, gave an MBE to his barber, for services to hairdressing...

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-01-06/davi ... arded-mbe/

[jbuck919]

To give you a better idea of how pointless the whole "Honours" system is, the British Prime Minister, David Cameroon, gave an MBE to his barber, for services to hairdressing...

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-01-06/davi ... arded-mbe/

Obviously Cameron wants others to see him as he sees himself in the mirror.

I had an acquaintance in college (from his point of view I was a good friend) who cultivated a cordial relationship with the then head of the Romanov family, whom he actually invited to Princeton and whom I got to meet there. (For once my usual panic in the presence of famous people was inoperative.) It was a little like the way people cultivate contacts with the Dalai Lama, except that he had this obsessive idea that the Grand Duke was going to give him some sort of title (which of course never happened).

[absinthe]

To give you a better idea of how pointless the whole "Honours" system is, the British Prime Minister, David Cameroon, gave an MBE to his barber, for services to hairdressing...

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-01-06/davi ... arded-mbe/

The whole thing should be scrapped. We have no empire now. Being made Member of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire means being a Member of the Most Excellent Order of Nothing!

Cameron will go to anything involving him in a photoshoot.

One of the best comedy shows on TV is "Prime Minister's Question Time".