Where are all the ladies on CMG?

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Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Lance » Wed Mar 18, 2015 1:34 am

They are certainly MOST welcome here.
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erato
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by erato » Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:39 pm

You mean dulcinea isn't female? :shock:

piston
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by piston » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:47 pm

Would International Women's Day, March 8, be the source of Lance's question? Every year, around this time, classical music lovers generate internet circulation about female composers, a topic that has never really been the source of as much enthusiasm among CMGF posters as, say, "what's the best performance of this famous work"?

And, as a matter of fact, women's day is not officially recognized in most countries where classical music has deep historical roots. It's mostly a Eurasian, Asian, African and Cuban day:
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In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:20 am

Lance wrote:They are certainly MOST welcome here.
If I were a female, I would feel most UNwelcome on a board that had a thread entitled "Where are all the ladies?"

There may have been a time when it might have flown to refer to women as "the ladies," though that would have been a time prior to universal sufferage, too, most likely.

If you want both males and females participating on your board, a good place to start would be with the notion that it's OK to call women "the ladies."

Better to just have a board, with some threads, and as close to universal respect for all humans, regardless of gender, as is humanly possible.

As for enthusiasm about female composers, with a few exceptions, that's more a matter of enthusiasm for contemporary music than it is a gender thing. And for sure, CMG shows very little enthusiasm for contemporary music, despite the inevitable protests that the contrary is true. (Followed by threads about it pretty much all abandoned so soon as the protests die down.)

But soft!

I don't post here any more!! Ack!!! :lol:
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Ted Quanrud » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:55 am

I too am dismayed by the small percentage of women participants in this forum. I miss Corlyss and I can't recall of hearing from Agnes lately. I'm glad Dulcinea chooses to hang in there with the rest of us.

In truth, all the classical record collectors I personally know, save one, are men. That one exception is also a fine pianist who mainly buys recordings of works she is learning to play. Sure, she has the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies, etc., but only one recording of each. On the other hand, she may have a half dozen CDs of the Chopin ballades (which she plays very well).

"Wax Trash and Vinyl Treasures: Record Collecting as a Social Practice" by Roy Shukar provides some insight into this issue. Here's a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=PMmhA ... en&f=false

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Lance » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:44 pm

Well, in no way (positively) was my question meant to be disrespectful. It was meant to be sure they knew they WERE welcome here. Thank heaven you are NOT a lady! :D And insofar as contemporary music is concerned on these boards, they, too, are MOST welcome. In fact, we miss you and trust you may want to find your way back here at some point to keep the contemporary 'movement' moving at least to some degree. Contemporary music lovers/composers (men or women) are, too, MOST welcome here.
some guy wrote:
Lance wrote:They are certainly MOST welcome here.
If I were a female, I would feel most UNwelcome on a board that had a thread entitled "Where are all the ladies?"

There may have been a time when it might have flown to refer to women as "the ladies," though that would have been a time prior to universal sufferage, too, most likely.

If you want both males and females participating on your board, a good place to start would be with the notion that it's OK to call women "the ladies."

Better to just have a board, with some threads, and as close to universal respect for all humans, regardless of gender, as is humanly possible.

As for enthusiasm about female composers, with a few exceptions, that's more a matter of enthusiasm for contemporary music than it is a gender thing. And for sure, CMG shows very little enthusiasm for contemporary music, despite the inevitable protests that the contrary is true. (Followed by threads about it pretty much all abandoned so soon as the protests die down.)

But soft!

I don't post here any more!! Ack!!! :lol:
Lance G. Hill
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rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Lance » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:48 pm

Hi Ted, and thank you for your comments. Most collectors I know as well are men. Agnes does show up from time to time, and I, too miss her, Corlyss and others though we DO have a few women, especially more recently, not that the gender matters. It's for ANYBODY who loves great music, traditional, contemporary, and all categories. Some of us have preferences (me for Baroque to about 1940), so we address those posts that have the greatest interest for us. But we all learn from each other and that is a very nice feature of a board like this. I suppose (know) that our Pub board has caused considerable consternation for some, and perhaps rightly so, but they should also know NOT to take it personally.
Ted Quanrud wrote:I too am dismayed by the small percentage of women participants in this forum. I miss Corlyss and I can't recall of hearing from Agnes lately. I'm glad Dulcinea chooses to hang in there with the rest of us.

In truth, all the classical record collectors I personally know, save one, are men. That one exception is also a fine pianist who mainly buys recordings of works she is learning to play. Sure, she has the Beethoven and Brahms symphonies, etc., but only one recording of each. On the other hand, she may have a half dozen CDs of the Chopin ballades (which she plays very well).

"Wax Trash and Vinyl Treasures: Record Collecting as a Social Practice" by Roy Shukar provides some insight into this issue. Here's a link: https://books.google.com/books?id=PMmhA ... en&f=false
Lance G. Hill
Editor-in-Chief
______________________________________________________

When she started to play, Mr. Steinway came down and personally
rubbed his name off the piano. [Speaking about pianist &*$#@+#]

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piston
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by piston » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:05 pm

I also call women ladies because I was born numerous decades ago. No generation is alike and none should impose its language on the other.

Furthermore, to appropriate women as being only representative of "contemporary music" can hardly be viewed as a pro-women statement. Activists for women's cause in classical music don't do that!! They'll mention Clara Schumann, Louise Farrenc (pretty remarkable for her time), Lilli Boulanger, Germaine Tailleferre, etc., etc., none of which can be associated with "contemporary music."

That was hardly a pro-feminist statement, some guy; it was a self-serving one and you're a male.............................
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:26 am

piston wrote:I also call women ladies because I was born numerous decades ago. No generation is alike and none should impose its language on the other.

Furthermore, to appropriate women as being only representative of "contemporary music" can hardly be viewed as a pro-women statement. Activists for women's cause in classical music don't do that!! They'll mention Clara Schumann, Louise Farrenc (pretty remarkable for her time), Lilli Boulanger, Germaine Tailleferre, etc., etc., none of which can be associated with "contemporary music."

That was hardly a pro-feminist statement, some guy; it was a self-serving one and you're a male.............................
Well, thanks for the very swift reminder of why I stopped coming here! Why, I might have started participating again if you hadn't. And where would that have led? Exactly. So thanks.

Anyway, while I'm here, I might as well say that I too was born numerous decades ago. Six and change. I wasn't imposing anything. Just pointing out that a term that has at the very least acquired a faint odor of condescension is probably not the term that will be the most welcoming. Why don't we have more darkies on the board? Why don't we have more of the kiddies? And so forth. You see? Besides, Lance and I are in the same generation, so where does the "different generations" idea come from?

And speaking of where ideas come from, where does the "appropriating" idea come from? Most female composers are contemporary. Most women who have been composers are people who are still alive. That's just a historical fact. It's sad that that should be true, but there it is. And of course there is no "only" about it. Which part of "a few exceptions" and "more a matter of" did you not understand? So telling me what activists do or do not do is hardly relevant.

Nor is the one about feminism or about my gender.

And the one about "self-serving" probably falls outside the rules of posting to CMG. It certainly falls outside the rules of civility. But again, thanks for saying it. It has reminded me how much happier I am when I'm not wrangling with people like yourself.
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by lennygoran » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:00 am

some guy wrote: Anyway, while I'm here, I might as well say that I too was born numerous decades ago. Six and change. I wasn't imposing anything.
I disagree with you-I find nothing wrong with what was to me Lance's genuine appeal for more people to join us-also he politely responded to you but you seem to have an axe to grind-I don't think you should address our moderator with the kind of criticism you leveled below:

"If I were a female, I would feel most UNwelcome on a board that had a thread entitled "Where are all the ladies?"There may have been a time when it might have flown to refer to women as "the ladies," though that would have been a time prior to universal sufferage, too, most likely. If you want both males and females participating on your board, a good place to start would be with the notion that it's OK to call women "the ladies."

Regards, Len seven and change :(

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by jserraglio » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:47 am

On one classical-recordings board, times being what they are, you can find lots of men but only a few gentlemen.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by barney » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:56 am

I'm obviously one of the kiddies (59 and a half). Thanks for making me welcome too!

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:55 pm

It's funny; there's nothing particularly antagonistic or harsh about my original post. Lance didn't think so either. He had asked a question which I noticed contained a possible answer, the use of a questionable term for possible female members. And I elaborated that a good way to go about having a welcoming board would be to give over dividing members, potential or actual, into categories. I know I don't particularly want my being a male to be factored in to how people respond to my ideas about music. It's impertinent. And it wasn't a big stretch from that to my guess that other members don't particularly want their being female to be factored into it, either, certainly not with a term that could be easily taken as being condescending. I took it that way, and I'm no lady.

But then that got a nice negative spin put on it by piston. Categories not present in the original post and the concept of exclusivity were imposed on my text, and imposed not even by distorting anything I said but by simply adding them. And now nothing that I can say about not imposing any language myself or not appropriating anything or about how "only" goes contrary to what I actually said will do any good. Piston has re-cast my post into something quite different from the original, and lennygoran has followed that up by distorting time, so that Lance's response to me is made to seem to have preceded my original response, which is now characterized as an inappropriate criticism of his polite response.

Wow. Pretty neat trick, that.

And it seemed so simple at first:

"Why aren't there more ladies?"

"Maybe because women don't want to be called 'ladies'?

Maybe because gender has nothing to do with one's ideas about music?"

Far as I can see, if Lance wants more females, then he should make sure that everyone feels welcome, regardless of gender. And if gender is really and truly not regarded, then the question won't even arise in the first place, the appropriateness of terminology nothwithstanding. My advice would be to get rid of this thread--it's not only an example of sexism, which might be off-putting to certain people, but in piston's and lenny's piling on, CMG could seem to be a generally antagonistic place where any perspectives on anything that go contrary to their perspectives will be rudely distorted and the person attacked as just generally not nice for having ideas contrary to piston's and lenny's.

My advice would be to eliminate this thread. Pretend none of this ever happened. :)
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by piston » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:00 pm

"piston" asserted that the term "lady" was just fine, not condescending as you were so fast to jab on an otherwise completely friendly post by Lance (speaking of "civility" and tone).

"piston" also asserted that many female composers precede the "contemporary music" period and, like so many 19th and 20th century composers, the majority, they are no longer remembered today. It is thus methodologically questionable to mainly associate women composers with the recent decades because, if history serves us well, many of them, too, will not pass the test of time.

Civility is a two-way street and it's apparent to me too that a poster who makes a point of immediately stating "I don't post here anymore" and "Ack!!!" has no intention of being civil to begin with.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by lennygoran » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:00 pm

some guy wrote:It's funny; there's nothing particularly antagonistic or harsh about my original post. Lance didn't think so either. ... lennygoran has followed that up by distorting time,... Pretty neat trick, that.... but in piston's and lenny's piling on, CMG could seem to be a generally antagonistic place where any perspectives on anything that go contrary to their perspectives will be rudely distorted and the person attacked as just generally not nice for having ideas contrary to piston's and lenny's.

My advice would be to eliminate this thread. Pretend none of this ever happened. :)
I of course don't see it the way you do-Lance's title was fine-nothing wrong with trying to get the ladies back and participating more--your remark criticizing Lance's title was completely unnecessary and no matter what you now try to spin there was implied criticism. Also inviting Piston to leave the way you did was also uncalled for. And me playing some kind of trick on you is just ridiculous. AFAIAC you're the one on the attack-first Lance, then Piston and now me. My feeling is that it's discourtesy like yours that may keep the ladies away-I sure hope it won't keep Piston away and it definitely won't keep me away. Regards, Len :(

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by piston » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:28 pm

Nadia Boulanger's composition class of 1926:
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I know that Fauré also had female students other than Nadia and Lili Boulanger, circa 1903-11, but it's impossible to do any search on that topic because of present-day Lycée Gabriel Fauré.
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:57 am

To all the ladies and germs.

There really isn't any problem with the term 'ladies'. Possibly a bit dated, but I see young women using the term all the time. It does connote something, I'm not sure what. The term 'women' is a bit more neutral.

Apparently, Beyonce has a song called 'Single Ladies'. I recommend viewing the following video purely as an example of how the term is used in modern parlance, and for no other, uh, reason. By the way, that's 'parlance', not 'per Lance'.



The only problem I see with the title is that now the ladies who might have been wondering, have confirmation that there are very few lady participants on the forum. :)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by jserraglio » Sun Mar 22, 2015 11:11 am

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:36 am

slofstra wrote:I see young women using the term all the time.
Lance is not a young woman.

Black people refer to each other as "nigger" all the time, too.

It would not be appropriate for me, a white person, to do so, however. It would, at the very least, be incivil.

Lance asked a sincere question. I took it be so, anyway. And I noticed a term in that question that could be seen as supplying a sincere answer to that question. So I gave it, knowing full well that it would garner the kind of spin that piston and lenny have given it but deciding that Lance deserved an answer anyway.

I still think so, even though Lance himself, along with several other old white guys, still thinks it's OK for old white guys to refer to women as "the ladies." Lance sees himself, in common with how the rest of see him, as being a civil person. In his subject heading is a term that could be seen as incivil. If Lance agrees, and wants to remove the incivility, then he will do so. If he disagrees, I doubt that that will damage his reputation for civility much, even if the term itself can still be seen as being incivil. But it will still be a pity, I think.

That is all.
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

piston
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by piston » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:17 am

Well, some guy, your original reply and objection to the word "lady" has had the merit of leading to a bit of research. Objections to the use of this word are associated with second-wave feminist Robin Lakoff. In a 1975 book, she pointed out, among other things, contradictions such as referring to "cleaning lady" and "sales lady" but not "garbage gentlemen." But that was forty years ago. The word had been appropriated by a new generation of young people and its use today is considered to be most "fluid," but certainly acceptable. Ann Friedman published an article about this modern-use in The New Republic two years ago:
But now, “lady” splits the difference between the infantilizing “girl” and the stuffy, Census-bureau cold “woman.” (Both still have their place—just not in the witty conversation that young feminists want to be having.) It’s a way to stylishly signal your gender-awareness, without the stone-faced trappings of the second-wave. It’s a casual synonym for “woman,” a female counterpart to “guy,” commonly used in winking conversation between one in-the-know woman and another. A scan of my phone reveals dozens of text messages that begin, “hey lady.”
It's a word that has been "repurposed in a way that diminishes its sting."
These days, everything is contextual; nothing is verboten. (Well, almost nothing.) And in some cases, “lady” can be a pleasingly incongruous term of address for a woman who never married, can hold her scotch, and swears like a sailor. But I’m not generally thinking about these things when I deploy it as a term of address. Mostly, I’m just saying hello to a peer. Yeah, I’m apparently saying, we’re the ladies.
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1121 ... as-evolved
In the eyes of those lovers of perfection, a work is never finished—a word that for them has no sense—but abandoned....(Paul Valéry)

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by lennygoran » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:31 am

some guy wrote:So I gave it, knowing full well that it would garner the kind of spin that piston and lenny have given it but deciding that Lance deserved an answer anyway.
Disagree with you-it was only when you attacked Piston that I entered the discussion. Comparing using the term "nigger" to the term "lady" is just ridiculous to me. You've made a big deal out of this from the start-you're the "wrangler" as I see it.

Here are some of your comments:
"It has reminded me how much happier I am when I'm not wrangling with people like yourself."

"My advice would be to get rid of this thread--it's not only an example of sexism, which might be off-putting to certain people, but in piston's and lenny's piling on, CMG could seem to be a generally antagonistic place where any perspectives on anything that go contrary to their perspectives will be rudely distorted and the person attacked as just generally not nice for having ideas contrary to piston's and lenny's."

Regards, Len

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Auntie Lynn » Mon Mar 23, 2015 9:50 am

Well, Lance, if you really want to know what happened to the ladies, I can give you a tiny
clue. This site is dominated by a bunch of tired old pooftahs who hand down their
exclusive opinions as fatwahs of gospel truth. And they have absolutely NO sense of
humor. You would not believe the support I got by other posters at this site at the end of
last year and continuing. If you are a papist, conservative, a working musician, a lady, etc.
etc. you can expect to see endless bashing here. Yes, Dulcinea may be a lady but she is
basically innocuous and no threat to the status quo. Miz Marfy was a theory professor at
Florida State - they got rid of her in a hurry. Dainty Fairy Librarina knew where
everything in the world was - even before Google. No longer here. Nightmare Alice
seems to have disappeared but she didn’t know anything about music to begin with.

There’s lots more, but that’s enough for now.

NOW, watch this place light up!!

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Lance » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:01 pm

Who would have thought my seven-line (innocent) subject would would have brought forth such interest? I'm smiling ear-to-ear just now. You are all such great people and have such good ideas and, above all, love music.

I was thinking ... when I introduce a man and woman at a concert who are about to sing, I always use the phrase: "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am pleased to present ... " etc. How would it sound to say: "Men and Women, I am pleased to present soprano Kirsten Flagstad and Cosmo McMoon as they offer "You Don't Bring Me Flowers Any More." I suppose Ladies is meant as a proper distinction in this case, and (hopefully), all the men present are Gentlemen (but probably some of them are not).

Anyway, I am having great fun with my friends on CMG.

But NOW, as the previous writer (prior to this post) said ... watch this place light up!

With regard to the term "nigger," I would never use that term because its connotations are less than civil. You know, Dvorak wrote a piece of chamber music calling it the "Nigger Quartet," referring to his Quartet in F Major, Op. 96. He, himself, appended that name to the piece, but it was not meant to be demeaning since that term in Dvorak's time was widely used. That work is now referred to as the "American Quartet," (thankfully). I have many Italian friends who are performing musicians. I could never use the term "wap" because, it, too, is inappropriate and demeaning. But the term "Ladies?" Could it really be that bad? What do our WOMEN members think about using that term? Is it bothersome to you personally, and what would you rather be referred to in this situation? I have other friends, Irish, Mexicans, Spaniards, Poles, Israelis, Brits, Canadians, and more ... and all these groups of people have names that can be considered inappropriate, unkind, ridiculous and uncivil even when it is meant to be humorous. But, again, LADIES?
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by John F » Mon Mar 23, 2015 12:43 pm

Lance wrote:Cosmo McMoon
Really? I thought he accompanied only one soprano. (His name was Cosme McMoon, an Americanization of his Mexican name.)
John Francis

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Lance » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:35 pm

Ah, I smile HUGELY again as I expected you to catch the McMoon reference though I didn't get his first name correct. I should have verified that. But of course, Florence Foster Jenkins was accompanied by poor Mr. Cosme McMoon and I'm sure Flagstad would have preferred Gerald Moore or Edwin McArthur as her partner at the piano. But, what about addressing the audience, as I often do, by saying "Ladies and Gentlemen" versus "Men and Women," etc.?
John F wrote:
Lance wrote:Cosmo McMoon
Really? I thought he accompanied only one soprano. (His name was Cosme McMoon, an Americanization of his Mexican name.)
Lance G. Hill
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by absinthe » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:00 pm

At least one I can think of was bullied rather a lot after turning to this forum as being one of the most professional and knowledgeable on the web. Unfortunately her logon was rendered inactive. I can't remember why exactly, something to do with her password - certainly nothing to do with other members / moderation. But she decided not to set up a new account because she found the condescending, sometimes abusive talking-down to be more of an offput than uplifting. It does happen. I've felt it myself and though it's less of a deterrent to me, I post less because my musical interests don't align too well with the site. One tries, but.... Of course, far from all members talk down or condescend but it only takes a few simply to deter people.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by barney » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:28 pm

I have no contribution to make about why there are not more women on this site. But I do want to say that I have almost never been offended by abuse, of me or anyone else. Cyberspace, as we all know, is a remarkably uncivil space, and CMG is a relative haven. For six years (2007-12) I ran a blog on a major newspaper and the abuse and condescension there was 10 to the power of 83 more offensive than here. I know because I moderated it myself. Because of my commitment to open expression, I almost never removed a post, but might "snip" it, indicating in the post where the "snip" had occurred.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:49 pm

Just a little note to say that I found the reference to women as LADIES most respectful
and truly "nice". I like to be considered a lady! Although I do not wear white gloves,
there was a time when I was reported by a fellow train traveller on my way home
from school for not wearing my white gloves. The nuns at St. Vincent's College,
Potts Point, Sydney, gave me a long lecture and I became determined to be a "Lady".
So, thank you dear Lance.

I do not collect recordings, so I have little to contribute to this site. However, I visit
here every day to learn something valuable. As for the other site, I am not American
so I can't really contribute very much to your politics and in any case, my sympathies
are more Corlyss-like and I miss her.

So, here is one little contribution from a "lady" just to tell you how much I enjoy coming here.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by lennygoran » Mon Mar 23, 2015 7:11 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Just a little note to say that I found the reference to women as LADIES most respectful...So, here is one little contribution from a "lady" just to tell you how much I enjoy coming here.

Regards,
Agnes.
Agnes so wonderful for me to read this comment of yours-thanks so much for making it-you made my day! Regards, Len :D :D :D

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by maestrob » Mon Mar 23, 2015 10:51 pm

Agnes:

You surprise me. A person of your erudition who does NOT collect recordings, and yet I have learned much from your book.

......And yes, you made my day also with your comment. Certainly you have quite a lot to say on the subject of music. Please keep us in line! :)

Also, I'm sure that there are many women who love music as we do who browse this site. I, for one, do not feel that music is exclusively a male pursuit, as my experience as an opera conductor made me realize that women singers outnumbered men 10 to 1 in my auditions.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:27 pm

lennygoran wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:Just a little note to say that I found the reference to women as LADIES most respectful...So, here is one little contribution from a "lady" just to tell you how much I enjoy coming here.

Regards,
Agnes.
Agnes so wonderful for me to read this comment of yours-thanks so much for making it-you made my day! Regards, Len :D :D :D
Thank you, Lenny. You have been in my thoughts. How is the snow treating your lovely garden?

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Agnes Selby » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:43 pm

maestrob wrote:Agnes:

You surprise me. A person of your erudition who does NOT collect recordings, and yet I have learned much from your book.

......And yes, you made my day also with your comment. Certainly you have quite a lot to say on the subject of music. Please keep us in line! :)

Also, I'm sure that there are many women who love music as we do who browse this site. I, for one, do not feel that music is exclusively a male pursuit, as my experience as an opera conductor made me realize that women singers outnumbered men 10 to 1 in my auditions.
---------------

You are quite right, Maestrob, women love music as much as men do. As far as my book is concerned,
it took me years of research, working at the Mozarteum library, researching, as well as in Vienna, and
many other places. I must admit, I did often listen to recordings whenever the music concerned my particular research.
Thank you, your comment regarding my book is much appreciated.

Yes, I do love music. I am blessed to have my daughter, Kathryn Selby, who is Australia's foremost pianist. And then...you should hear my granddaughter Anna sing!!!! Indeed, I must admit,
music is very much part of my life.

Regards,
Agnes.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by lennygoran » Tue Mar 24, 2015 5:43 am

Agnes Selby wrote:
Thank you, Lenny. You have been in my thoughts. How is the snow treating your lovely garden?
Agnes it's been covering it for about 2 months now-we're so anxious for spring already-going to Charleston SC in a few weeks-those gardens should be lovely down there! Hope you and yours are well! Regards, Len

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by karlhenning » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:38 am

barney wrote:Cyberspace, as we all know, is a remarkably uncivil space, and CMG is a relative haven.
In this fact, we all rejoice. Well, I mean, in the second half of the sentence; in the first, not so much.

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by karlhenning » Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:00 am

Lance wrote:I was thinking ... when I introduce a man and woman at a concert who are about to sing, I always use the phrase: "Ladies and Gentlemen, I am pleased to present ... " etc. How would it sound to say: "Men and Women, I am pleased to present [...]"
You're addressing people in public, and ladies and gentlemen are terms of respectful address. Men and women merely indicate gender . . . you might as well just accost the audience as "Hey, people!"

No one is going to hold you accountable if any member of the audience turns out unworthy of the respect wherewith you address them ; )

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by John F » Tue Mar 24, 2015 12:21 pm

Also, some establish label their washrooms "Ladies" and "Gentlemen." My sister-in-law, who is a relentless feminist, has never taken offense at that, or refused to use the ladies'.
John Francis

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Ricordanza » Wed Mar 25, 2015 5:59 am

Agnes Selby wrote:I do not collect recordings, so I have little to contribute to this site.
I think that Agnes has hit upon a major factor why this site may be perceived as unwelcoming to women (and remember, perception is reality): collecting recordings, in fact, collecting anything, is predominantly a male pursuit. I could argue, of course, that one does not have to be a collector of recordings (I am not...a couple of hundred CDs doesn't count) to participate in this site, but a non-collector can be put off when discussions go on and on about the 50 different recordings participants have of the same piece.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by karlhenning » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:17 am

Ricordanza wrote:... in fact, collecting anything [other than shoes], is predominantly a male pursuit.
Emended.

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
http://members.tripod.com/~Karl_P_Henning/
http://henningmusick.blogspot.com/
Published by Lux Nova Press
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:30 pm

some guy wrote:
slofstra wrote:I see young women using the term all the time.
Lance is not a young woman.

Black people refer to each other as "nigger" all the time, too.

It would not be appropriate for me, a white person, to do so, however. It would, at the very least, be incivil.

Lance asked a sincere question. I took it be so, anyway. And I noticed a term in that question that could be seen as supplying a sincere answer to that question. So I gave it, knowing full well that it would garner the kind of spin that piston and lenny have given it but deciding that Lance deserved an answer anyway.

I still think so, even though Lance himself, along with several other old white guys, still thinks it's OK for old white guys to refer to women as "the ladies." Lance sees himself, in common with how the rest of see him, as being a civil person. In his subject heading is a term that could be seen as incivil. If Lance agrees, and wants to remove the incivility, then he will do so. If he disagrees, I doubt that that will damage his reputation for civility much, even if the term itself can still be seen as being incivil. But it will still be a pity, I think.

That is all.
Although I support civility in speech, I see no problem with use of the word 'ladies' to refer to 'women'. You're certainly entitled to think otherwise. And, ideas about word use do vary from one place to another. In Canada, you no longer say 'Indians' but either 'First Nations' or 'indigenous peoples'. I am told things are different in Cleveland. So be it.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:37 pm

Agnes Selby wrote:Just a little note to say that I found the reference to women as LADIES most respectful
and truly "nice". I like to be considered a lady! Although I do not wear white gloves,
there was a time when I was reported by a fellow train traveller on my way home
from school for not wearing my white gloves. The nuns at St. Vincent's College,
Potts Point, Sydney, gave me a long lecture and I became determined to be a "Lady".
So, thank you dear Lance.

I do not collect recordings, so I have little to contribute to this site. However, I visit
here every day to learn something valuable. As for the other site, I am not American
so I can't really contribute very much to your politics and in any case, my sympathies
are more Corlyss-like and I miss her.

So, here is one little contribution from a "lady" just to tell you how much I enjoy coming here.

Regards,
Agnes.
I have always enjoyed your comments on 'performance' in your neck of the woods; something I enjoy from all members actually. We get quite a bit of commentary on the Met and the New York area in general, which is great. Recorded performance is fed or nurtured by what is happening in the live scene. These days musicians of every kind earn their livelihood on live performances, and very little on their recorded work.
Last edited by slofstra on Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:39 pm

Lance wrote: But, what about addressing the audience, as I often do, by saying "Ladies and Gentlemen" versus "Men and Women," etc.?


So ... you haven't tried the "Ladies and Germs" shtick?

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Wed Mar 25, 2015 12:41 pm

Ricordanza wrote:
Agnes Selby wrote:I do not collect recordings, so I have little to contribute to this site.
I think that Agnes has hit upon a major factor why this site may be perceived as unwelcoming to women (and remember, perception is reality): collecting recordings, in fact, collecting anything, is predominantly a male pursuit. I could argue, of course, that one does not have to be a collector of recordings (I am not...a couple of hundred CDs doesn't count) to participate in this site, but a non-collector can be put off when discussions go on and on about the 50 different recordings participants have of the same piece.
While not disagreeing, I think such threads are fine, as long as we have some of the other sort. I often miss out on the performance reviews because I forget they are there.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by jserraglio » Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:19 pm

The formula ladies and gentlemen appears to be standard English usage even today:

Hillary Clinton's opened her "Address at the Transfer-of-Remains Ceremony for Victims of Attacks on the Benghazi U.S. Consulate" 14 September 2012 by using it:
Mr. President, Mr. Vice President, Secretary Panetta, Ambassador Rice, Secretary Powell and Mrs. Powell, family members of the four patriots and heroes we bring home, members of the State Department family, ladies and gentlemen:

Today we bring home four Americans who gave their lives for our country and our values. To the families of our fallen colleagues, I offer our most heartfelt condolences and deepest gratitude.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by Chalkperson » Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:41 pm

Auntie Lynn wrote:Well, Lance, if you really want to know what happened to the ladies, I can give you a tiny
clue. This site is dominated by a bunch of tired old pooftahs who hand down their
exclusive opinions as fatwahs of gospel truth. And they have absolutely NO sense of
humor. You would not believe the support I got by other posters at this site at the end of
last year and continuing. If you are a papist, conservative, a working musician, a lady, etc.
etc. you can expect to see endless bashing here. Yes, Dulcinea may be a lady but she is
basically innocuous and no threat to the status quo. Miz Marfy was a theory professor at
Florida State - they got rid of her in a hurry. Dainty Fairy Librarina knew where
everything in the world was - even before Google. No longer here. Nightmare Alice
seems to have disappeared but she didn’t know anything about music to begin with.

There’s lots more, but that’s enough for now.

NOW, watch this place light up!!
Delusional as ever, and you name people from so long ago, the place hardly lit up Aunty, you were not even damp squib.
Sent via Twitter by @chalkperson

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by jserraglio » Thu Mar 26, 2015 3:58 am

Auntie Lynn wrote: ... This site is dominated by a bunch of tired old pooftahs who hand down their
exclusive opinions as fatwahs of gospel truth. And they have absolutely NO sense of
humor....
argumentum ad homoinem?

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:37 am

In order to be argumentum ad hominem, it has to be directed at one person, not many.

Directed at many is called argumentum ad populum.

And in order to be either, it has to be a substitute for the real argument, substituting a remark about what someone has said with a remark about the someone.

Auntie Lynn's remark does not fill the bill.
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by slofstra » Thu Mar 26, 2015 6:04 am

jserraglio wrote:
Auntie Lynn wrote: ... This site is dominated by a bunch of tired old pooftahs who hand down their
exclusive opinions as fatwahs of gospel truth. And they have absolutely NO sense of
humor....
argumentum ad homoinem?
It's simply not true. We are not a "bunch" but a "group". Bananas come in bunches.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by karlhenning » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:29 am

There is no question as to my sense of humor. I'm not tired, nor terribly old, and though I am happy to share my opinion, I am never dogmatic about it.

Of course, I do not dominate the site, either.

Cheers,
~k.
Karl Henning, PhD
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston, Massachusetts
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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by jserraglio » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:55 am

some guy wrote:In order to be argumentum ad hominem, it has to be directed at one person, not many.

Directed at many is called argumentum ad populum.

And in order to be either, it has to be a substitute for the real argument, substituting a remark about what someone has said with a remark about the someone.

Auntie Lynn's remark does not fill the bill.
homoinem, not hominem: Auntie's use of the term pooftah fills the bill pretty directly in that case.
.

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Re: Where are all the ladies on CMG?

Post by some guy » Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:45 am

You know, it did occur to me to wonder if you were making a clever joke.

But mispellings are pretty rife on international sites. (I perpetrated one myself the other day, saying "parra" when what I meant was "para," so....)

Anyway, sorry you had to explain that. I did chuckle once you did, though. :)
"The public has got to stay in touch with the music of its time . . . for otherwise people will gradually come to mistrust music claimed to be the best."
--Viennese critic (1843)

Confusion is a word we have invented for an order which is not understood.
--Henry Miller

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