Getting into Harvard

[John F]

There's a long article in today's NY Times - too long to quote here - which discloses the process and criteria by which applicants to Harvard College are accepted, waitlisted, or rejected. This is in connection with the lawsuit, brought by an anti-affirmative-action conservative, that Harvard descriminates against oriental-Americans because of their race. Since Harvard has to reject 95% of those who apply, class size is limited to about 2,000, its practice and policy is bound to appear arbitrary. The fact that I got in, may make it seem even more so.

One criterion may have turned the trick for me: Harvard favors the offspring and relatives of Harvard graduates. My father told the story that when he was in high school, his father (a Harvard grad) said he could go to any college he wanted to, but if it was Harvard, he (the father) would pay for it. Pop made no such condition for me, indeed my brother went to Yale and Pop paid for that too. Other than that, I've no idea what was behind my acceptance when thousands of kids with better academic racords and SAT scores were rejected. I never even thought about it until much later when I finally realized how lucky I had been.

Here's the Times piece:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/us/h ... icans.html

I don't know much about my classmates' backgrounds, with a few exceptions. One was Dylan Thomas's son; another was the son of the famous architect I.M. Pei. Yet another was Ted Kaczynski, better known as the Unabomber. I'd say we had a pretty diverse class.

[jbuck919]

John, things were different in our days. I probably would not have gotten into Princeton under current circumstances. (For the record, I was wait-listed at Harvard and I never applied to Yale, which I later came to see as the superior school, for the bad reason that when I visited it in high school it was a rainy day which made its semi-urban campus seem off-putting. Also, unlike you, my family had no frame of reference for this kind of education. My great-grandparents were all illiterate, my grandparents had fifth-grade educations, my mother was only a high school graduate, and my father earned his diploma from Potsdam later in life.) This brouhaha over selective admission has been going on for years and will never stop. In the 70s there was a troublesome student at Princeton who insisted (incorrectly) that the Jewish quota was still in place. The basic problem, as I see it, is that the population of the US has increased by at least 75% since when we were young, while the number of positions at highly selective schools has remained about the same. There are no Leland Stanfords around anymore just to create a new super-university out of the whole cloth. The only option is the one that other advanced nations have chosen, which is for the state to build better colleges and pay for an equivalent education (another reason the US is falling far behind). Even New York, and I blush to say it, has at best a third rate university system.

[jserraglio]

Interesting. I think Harvard should win this lawsuit in the first round, unless something untoward pops up in discovery. From my limited perspective, writing scores upon scores of student recs, Harvard makes some pretty astute admissions decisions. At least, I don't recall any, pro or con, that I completely disagreed with.

My boss went to Harvard. He says he got in b/c he scored real high on his TAF test--Throwing a Football. Two of his classmates were a dropout, whatshisname, Bill Gates, and a guy that actually did graduate and currently owns the LA Clippers.

[lennygoran]

There are no Leland Stanfords around anymore just to create a new super-university out of the whole cloth.

This is where Trump has helped out! Regards, Len [fleeing]

[John F]

I never applied to Yale, which I later came to see as the superior school

Them's fighting words. Why do you think so? There are so many variables, and they're always changing. I should think it depends on what you want to study, if indeed you're clear about that (I wasn't).

[jbuck919]

I never applied to Yale, which I later came to see as the superior school

Them's fighting words. Why do you think so? There are so many variables, and they're always changing. I should think it depends on what you want to study, if indeed you're clear about that (I wasn't).

Don't be silly. Yale at the time had a house/college system like Harvard, while Princeton only had mediocre dormitories. (Forget collegiate gothic: You can't judge a book by its cover.) The food at Yale was greatly superior and a point of pride. Aside from Nassau Hall which once received George Washington after the Battle of Trenton and the chapel, the second largest in the US and designed by the great neo-gothic architect Ralph Adams Cram, Yale had the superior landscape. It had major recital and concert halls, while Princeton had to put up with a measly performance space which is exceeded by most high schools. I could go on and on.

There remains the fact that my two years at Yale as a grad student are still the happiest two years of my life. Is that not enough?

[John F]

I asked why you think Yale is superior to Harvard, which I believe is what you said, not Princeton. Is that silly?

As for food, in the '60s it varied from house to house; many were served by a central kitchen, which was mediocre, but Adams House and Dunster House had their own kitchens and the food was quite good. Not that I ate there very often; most often I had take-out from Elsie's, a deli near the WHRB studios.

[Belle]

There's a long article in today's NY Times - too long to quote here - which discloses the process and criteria by which applicants to Harvard College are accepted, waitlisted, or rejected. This is in connection with the lawsuit, brought by an anti-affirmative-action conservative, that Harvard descriminates against oriental-Americans because of their race. Since Harvard has to reject 95% of those who apply, class size is limited to about 2,000, its practice and policy is bound to appear arbitrary. The fact that I got in, may make it seem even more so.

One criterion may have turned the trick for me: Harvard favors the offspring and relatives of Harvard graduates. My father told the story that when he was in high school, his father (a Harvard grad) said he could go to any college he wanted to, but if it was Harvard, he (the father) would pay for it. Pop made no such condition for me, indeed my brother went to Yale and Pop paid for that too. Other than that, I've no idea what was behind my acceptance when thousands of kids with better academic racords and SAT scores were rejected. I never even thought about it until much later when I finally realized how lucky I had been.

Here's the Times piece:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/29/us/h ... icans.html

I don't know much about my classmates' backgrounds, with a few exceptions. One was Dylan Thomas's son; another was the son of the famous architect I.M. Pei. Yet another was Ted Kaczynski, better known as the Unabomber. I'd say we had a pretty diverse class.

Once you start playing the identity politics game it goes downhill from there. Nobody can win because there's always somebody who is going to fractionate his or her sense of minority status. Disaster in steroids.

[jbuck919]

I asked why you think Yale is superior to Harvard, which I believe is what you said, not Princeton. Is that silly?

As for food, in the '60s it varied from house to house; many were served by a central kitchen, which was mediocre, but Adams House and Dunster House had their own kitchens and the food was quite good. Not that I ate there very often; most often I had take-out from Elsie's, a deli near the WHRB studios.

I did not say Yale was superior to Harvard, than which there is still no greater university in the world. The meaning I intended to convey is that I eventually found out that it was superior to Princeton. A fine distinction, to be sure, but there it is. All the residential colleges at Yale had excellent kitchens, and grad students could dine at any one, aside from the also excellent kitchen at the Hall of Graduate Studies. Incidentally, years ago I wrote a multiple choice question about how Yale students came to be called Elis. The choices included the fact that Eli Whitney was a graduate, but of course the correct answer is that it was founded by a man named Elihu Yale, just as Harvard was founded by a man named John Harvard.

[John F]

OK, got it.

The basic problem, as I see it, is that the population of the US has increased by at least 75% since when we were young, while the number of positions at highly selective schools has remained about the same.

The last major expansion of Harvard undergraduate classes came after World War II, when American higher education was flooded with war veterans benefiting from the GI Bill. Another, I'm told, came in the mid-'50s, when Harvard accepted more freshmen than it could house, and more of them than expected showed up. Harvard has run out of room north of the Charles and is now expanding on the south bank in Allston, but none of the new buildings are undergraduate residences.

But one can get a superb education elsewhere. I was an Ivy League snob when I started at W. W. Norton, but in my travels I came across one college after another that I had to admit were pretty good - Indiana University, for example. A Harvard degree may convey other advantages, the name brand of course and also the contacts among classmates who may wind up in positions of influence. Neither of these helped me as far as I know, but they are part of the Harvard mystique.

[jbuck919]

Back in Maryland, I tried to tell my very best students to set their ambitions high. You just can't convince some parents that sending their children to an elite school (not necessarily the ones we've been talking about) will not bankrupt the family, because those schools still have sufficient endowment to allow for needs-blind admission. In one case, a student foolishly accepted a full scholarship at God help us the University of Oklahoma. That worked out because he ended up getting his Ph.D in physics from the University of Virginia. In a second case, a young woman whose parents would not entertain greater ambitions ended up going to St. Mary's College, the best in the Maryland State University system, which is not saying much. That worked out because she ended up getting a Ph.D in mathematics from Cornell, an extreme accomplishment which I myself could never have equaled, and is now a tenure-track professor of mathematics. But the very brightest student I ever had, who was certain for admission to Harvard or anywhere else, was also my worst failure. I told him in so many words that he couldn't go to school where most of the people he was surrounded by didn't know the difference between a black hole and a doughnut hole. His parents insisted on sending him to what I can only laughingly call Towson State University. He went on eventually to get his Ph.D from of all places Villanova, but ever since then has been no more than adjunct faculty somewhere in Arizona. RIP.

[jserraglio]

one can get a superb education elsewhere. I was an Ivy League snob when I started at W. W. Norton, but in my travels I came across one college after another that I had to admit were pretty good - Indiana University, for example.

Add in most of the original land-grant universities from the old Northwest Territory: Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Minnesota, Illinois. Not to mention the California system.

I attended Michigan, Ann Arbor and loved the place. My two daughters went to Ohio State, Columbus and Ohio University, Athens and received an excellent education. It's all about where you want to be.

A friend of mine, a brilliant grad of Cambridge, UK with a Harvard PhD, an expert in Romantic poetry, who could have gone anywhere after Harvard graduation, decided to teach at SUNY Geneseo (not exactly on the Ivy circuit, eh?) and has been there ever since. I think it was b/c Geneseo is located in the Finger Lakes region of NY state which reminded him of the Lake District so dear to Wordsworth and Coleridge. Smart man, not to be swayed by brand names but to find a place suitable.

In maybe the only instance where this school has set a low bar, Harvard, last I heard, considers you 'poor' enough to qualify for a full-tuition scholarship if your family gross income is not more than $80K. Which means in practice that if you are lucky enough to be accepted, you automatically qualify for the scholarship. That's what a $37 billion endowment can do for you.

But let's say Harvard were to decide next year to accept only class valedictorians: they would still have to reject a number of candidates for reasons of space. Those of my students that have been accepted there in every instance had something unique to offer, over and above academics.

I never tell students where they should or shouldn't go to college based solely on a school's name recognition: I have heard too many horror stories of parents dictating (not advising, mind you, but actually legislating) a college choice to their son or daughter just b/c they think a brand-name school will translate into success and happiness for their offspring. For them it's not unlike buying tissues at the supermarket--only Kleenex need apply. Their stupidity aside, there is the matter of their taking upon themselves a life-altering decision for a child on the brink of adulthood.

[jbuck919]

one can get a superb education elsewhere. I was an Ivy League snob when I started at W. W. Norton, but in my travels I came across one college after another that I had to admit were pretty good - Indiana University, for example.

Add in most of the old land-grant universities from the Northwest Territory: Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Minnesota, Illinois. Not to mention the California system.

I attended Michigan, Ann Arbor and loved the place. My two daughters went to Ohio State, Columbus and Ohio University, Athens and received an excellent education. It's all about where you want to be.

A friend of mine, a brilliant grad of Cambridge, UK with a Harvard PhD and an expert in Romantic poetry, who could have gone anywhere, decided to teach at SUNY Geneseo (not exactly on the Ivy circuit, eh?) and has been there ever since. Why? I think it was b/c it is located in the Finger Lakes region of NY state which reminded him of the Lake District so dear to Wordsworth and Coleridge. Smart man, not to be swayed by brand names but to find a place suitable for himself.

In maybe the only instance where this school has set a low bar, Harvard, last I heard, considers you 'poor' enough to qualify for a full-tuition scholarship if your family gross income is not more than $80K. Which means in practice that if you are lucky enough to be accepted you automatically qualify for the scholarship. That's what a $37 billion endowment can do for you.

But let's say Harvard were to decide next year to accept only class valedictorians: they would still have to reject a number of candidates for reasons of space. Those of my students that have been accepted there in every instance had something unique to offer, over and above academics.

I never tell students where they should or shouldn't go based solely on a school's 'name' value: I have heard too many horror stories of parents dictating (not advising, mind you but actually deciding) a college choice to their son or daughter just b/c they think a brand-name school will translate into success and happiness for their offspring. For them it's not unlike buying tissues at the supermarket--only Kleenex need apply. Their stupidity aside, there is the issue of their taking upon themselves to make a life-altering decision for a child on the brink of adulthood.

Oh God. The last time I had blood drawn, only a few weeks ago (and I am what they call a tough stick), the expert phlebotemist they brought in was on summer break from Geneseo. You only have to be a high school grad to be a phlebotemist in New York, but this was a very serious young man with aspirations to go on to med school. Instinctively, I know he will do well.

I didn't want to give the impression that I would recommend a school solely for prestige reasons. I am perfectly aware that higher education in the US taken as a whole is, or was, one of our crowning glories. A fourth student whom I did not mention was another of my best. His aspiration was to go to Notre Dame (you know, the big one in Indiana). It was for the wrong reason, because he and his father had arbitrarily chosen to follow Notre Dame football from Maryland as a matter of father-son fellowship. Well, having struggled so much with other promising students, I wasn't about to change his ambition in that matter. Iedited his application essay, wrote him a recommendation that would knock their socks off, and of course, he was accepted. He completed the four years plus law school at the same site, and is now a labor attorney in Baltimore.

[jserraglio]

Never been to Geneseo. You know, fly-over country. Not on the circuit

A student of mine visited Dartmouth which he loved (I spent some quality visiting time there with friends in my youth and my daughter recently worked at Timken Corp near there, and I loved it both times too) and then Notre Dame. I've never been there, but my son went to a ND football game there and came back disappointed. I asked why and he said, the crowd acted like they were at a symphony concert, clapping politely, no drunks and not a single swear word. You see, we were raised in the Dawg Pound at Browns Stadium.

Anyways, this student was accepted at both colleges. No brainer. The kid was brilliant.

I ran into him in the hallway and asked: So what's the word? He said, "My head told me Dartmouth, but my heart said Notre Dame." You are a wise man, I said.

Another student had the exact opposite experience when his parents decreed that they would pay for Swarthmore but not a dime for Notre Dame. This was after he had revised and revised and revised his college essay for ND where he longed to be. I wanted to tell him to tell mom and pop to go furgle themselves, but I held back.

[lennygoran]

Never been to Geneseo. You know, fly-over country. Not on the circuit

Never even heard of Geneseo and we've been to the Finger Lakes Region quite a few times over the years-we love it-I see we were close to Geneseo on our way past the Grand Canyon of NY-Letchworth State Park. Regards, Len

[jbuck919]

Just for the record, I've also never been to Geneseo (pronounced Jenn-ess-EE-oh), but one does not grow up in New York and not at least know about all the state university campuses.

[living_stradivarius]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4zobev

[jbuck919]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4zobev

Your point? (Henry, an Asian-American, went to Stanford.)

[living_stradivarius]

If you watched the video, you'd see my point. If you're really "good enough" for Harvard, you ought not to be miffed about not being admitted. If you're *that* good, top academic institutions ought to be courting you, not the other way around. Those who brought up this lawsuit should take that to heart.

The question of fairness that this particular lawsuit brings up is an interesting one and worth debating, however, because it forces private educational institutions to admit that racial quotas do matter in forming an interesting student body. We're going to see just how eloquent Harvard will be in expressing this controversial truth in as PC a manner as possible. I could care less about the actual outcome of this case - Harvard can and should do whatever they please in admissions is the direction I lean towards. But I, for one, would love to see their admissions records revealed to the public because of the discourse it will engender.

[jbuck919]

If you watched the video, you'd see my point. If you're really "good enough" for Harvard, you ought not to be miffed about not being admitted. If you're *that* good, top academic institutions ought to be courting you, not the other way around. Those who brought up this lawsuit should take that to heart.

The question of fairness that this particular lawsuit brings up is an interesting one and worth debating, however, because it forces private educational institutions to admit that racial quotas do matter in forming an interesting student body. We're going to see just how eloquent Harvard will be in expressing this controversial truth in as PC a manner as possible. I could care less about actual the outcome of this case - Harvard can and should do whatever they please in admissions is the direction I lean towards. But I, for one, would love to see their admissions records revealed to the public because of the discourse it will engender.

Of course I am not going to watch from beginning to end an excerpt from that ridiculous old TV program Saved by the Bell. (A boy's bow coming completely unstrung during performance is only unbelievable to those who have never witnessed it.) You know as well as I do that admissions to elite institutions of higher education are a matter of difficult balance. If everything were dependent on one criterion, we would never have had Barack Obama as President of the United States.

[living_stradivarius]

If everything were dependent on one criterion, we would never have had Barack Obama as President of the United States.

But if it were, we never would have had Donald J. Trump as President of the United States either

[living_stradivarius]

Of course I am not going to watch from beginning to end an excerpt from that ridiculous old TV program Saved by the Bell.

Ok, but you're missing out.

[living_stradivarius]

(A boy's bow coming completely unstrung during performance is only unbelievable to those who have never witnessed it.)

I'm sensing a theme of "I'm older and more experienced than you therefore your post is invalid/unremarkable". Kinda proving my point here about young vs old Liiiighten up It was the only animated gif I could find involving horsetail hair.

[jbuck919]

(A boy's bow coming completely unstrung during performance is only unbelievable to those who have never witnessed it.)

I'm sensing a theme of "I'm older and more experienced than you therefore your post is invalid/unremarkable". Kinda proving my point here about young vs old Liiiighten up It was the only animated gif I could find involving horsetail hair.

Pulling rank is exactly what I am doing, and frankly you can get lost again. I'm not going to recommend a banning, but things have been pretty nice around here for years now, and we don't need the likes of you showing up to spoil it. The Good Music Guide is still alive the last I heard. Happy hunting.

[living_stradivarius]

(A boy's bow coming completely unstrung during performance is only unbelievable to those who have never witnessed it.)

I'm sensing a theme of "I'm older and more experienced than you therefore your post is invalid/unremarkable". Kinda proving my point here about young vs old Liiiighten up It was the only animated gif I could find involving horsetail hair.

Pulling rank is exactly what I am doing, and frankly you can get lost again. I'm not going to recommend a banning, but things have been pretty nice around here for years now, and we don't need the likes of you showing up to spoil it. The Good Music Guide is still alive the last I heard. Happy hunting.

Sounds like I struck a nerve. You know as well as I do that your sort of behavior is frowned upon, and your seniors would remind you if they were still here.

Though a banning would be nice, since leftist fart echo chambers are the SJW way these days. Chalkie was wise to leave. Sadly,

[jbuck919]

(A boy's bow coming completely unstrung during performance is only unbelievable to those who have never witnessed it.)

I'm sensing a theme of "I'm older and more experienced than you therefore your post is invalid/unremarkable". Kinda proving my point here about young vs old Liiiighten up It was the only animated gif I could find involving horsetail hair.

Pulling rank is exactly what I am doing, and frankly you can get lost again. I'm not going to recommend a banning, but things have been pretty nice around here for years now, and we don't need the likes of you showing up to spoil it. The Good Music Guide is still alive the last I heard. Happy hunting.

Sounds like I struck a nerve. You know as well as I do that your sort of behavior is frowned upon, and your seniors would remind you if they were still here.

Though a banning would be nice, since leftist fart echo chambers are the SJW way these days. Chalkie was wise to leave. Sadly,

"You have no power here" is a quotation from The Wizard of Oz, if you are lucky enough ever to have seen that great movie at your tender age. Henry, I wanted this to be a happy reunion, but obviously you came in loaded for bear. I assure you that at a word from me Lance would take action. I may not be the senior poster, but I am the senior poster who has continued for many years to post consistently. I just don't want to put Lance through that. And as for Chalkie, he was as left as left gets and his reasons for no longer posting are his own. If you wish to continue here, please do not post contentiously.

[living_stradivarius]

I’m fine with dropping what you started.