mozart symphonies after serenades

[rws]

Hello,
I saw a recording on Sony(47260) by Bruno Weil & Tafelmusik titled "Six symphonies after serenades", it can be viewed on Amazon or Tower. It lists the works as; k.100(62a), k.203(189b), k.250(248b), k.185(167a), k.204(213a), and k.320.
How do the symphonic versions differ from the serenades, is larger orchestration? or?
Thanks Bob

[Corlyss_D]

How do the symphonic versions differ from the serenades, is larger orchestration? or?

Hard to tell. They do sound meatier than I'm used to hearing in the Posthorn Serenade, but the HIP/OI makes it difficult to distinguish the sound of "more forces" from the "typical HIP/OI" treatment.

[jbuck919]

Like many collections, this one seems to be tied together by an arbitrary common link, a bit like "Works Bach wrote after a bad night in bed with his wife" if we were able to identify those (assuming he ever had a bad night that way ). Having said that, and though it is not in response to your question, Mozart did not write a truly great symphony until number 36, and in my opinion even the Haffner (number 35) is inferior to the serenade on which it is based and which whoever put together the collection you refer to seems to have neglected though it fits his theme. Among the greatest composers, Mozart was not the most successful adapter of his own works.

[rws]

What do the numbers in parenthesis represent? Not only here but in other works of Mozart. I assume a alternate cataloging system?

[Corlyss_D]

What do the numbers in parenthesis represent? Not only here but in other works of Mozart. I assume a alternate cataloging system?

Later additions/corrections to the Kochel numbering system that's too entrenched to simply throw out.

[Corlyss_D]

Like many collections, this one seems to be tied together by an arbitrary common link, a bit like "Works Bach wrote after a bad night in bed with his wife" if we were able to identify those (assuming he ever had a bad night that way ). Having said that, and though it is not in response to your question, Mozart did not write a truly great symphony until number 36, and in my opinion even the Haffner (number 35) is inferior to the serenade on which it is based and which whoever put together the collection you refer to seems to have neglected though it fits his theme. Among the greatest composers, Mozart was not the most successful adapter of his own works.

I don't think they purport to be true symphonies, good, bad, or indifferent. It's hard to tell without the liner notes to peek into the arranger's mind. I got the impression from the Posthorn that it was just a beefed up orchestra. The disc is so out of print, used copies are not even available, or I would plunk down my money and resolve the mystery.

[jbuck919]

What do the numbers in parenthesis represent? Not only here but in other works of Mozart. I assume a alternate cataloging system?

Though it has always been better in terms of chronology than many other cataloguing systems, the Koechel catalog needed scholarly revision like anything else. In other words, your assumption is correct. I am willing to admit that I have always used the K numbers as an informal guide, it being impractical to be familiar with all 500+ works, and have (as a matter of personal opinion) found a cutoff of K350 or something around there to be convenient. There are obvious exceptions but not all that many of them. It is not, perhaps, the most pleasant thing to conclude that 7/10 or so of Mozart's output is for all its shapely attractiveness not of primary importance, but "there it is." My neat little scheme does not work for the even more prolific Bach, who in the first place wrote a greater proportion of masterpieces and in the second was not well served by those who assigned numbers when they catalogued his works.

[John F]

Some of Mozart's serenades for orchestral forces amount to expanded symphonies, often with concerto-style movements as well. The Posthorn Serenade K.320 is an example. Mozart himself extracted the symphonic movements for use in his concerts, usually with the original orchestration. In his book on Mozart's symphonies, Neil Zaslaw counts these cut-down serenades as symphonies, and that's doubtless the basis of the Sony recording. If you already have recordings of the serenades in their original form, the Sony CD won't give you anything you haven't already heard.

In one case he revised the orchestration to include clarinets, and it's only in this version as a symphony that the work survives. This is the Haffner Symphony, which is not taken from the work called the Haffner Serenade but from a later serenade for the Haffner family. There may have been one more movement that Mozart dropped, possibly a minuet, but the serenade version may have been in four movements, like "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" and the wind serenade in C minor.

So what was a serenade anyway? Generally the term seems to have been used for music intended for open-air performance, whether in the street at night (cf. Don Giovanni's "Deh vieni alla finestra") or perhaps at a party or reception. The forms of the movements were the same as in standard concert music; indeed, Mozart arranged the C minor wind serenade as a string quintet. The extra movements, which were typical but evidently not necessary, and were not always played, may have had to do with the length of the original occasion or perhaps what was to happen during it, though I don't know if this is so.

As for the dual K. numbers, the original sequence reflected what Herr von Köchel believed was the order of composition, but additional evidence and research led to a revised chronological order in the 3rd edition, prepared in the '30s and '40s. By then Köchel's original numbers were so well known that they were not dropped, and some were kept unchanged to "anchor" the new numbering system. Not long after moving to Vienna in 1781, Mozart began keeping a chronological catalog of his own works including the dates he completed them, and for these the original Köchel numbers have not needed to be changed.

[Gurn Blanston]

The whole "Symphonies after Serenades" thing is not nearly so complicated as it appears at first blush. There is very, very little rearranging going on here.

Let us take a typical serenade, K 203 (189b). It was renumbered to 189b because it turned out to have been written earlier than originally thought, and since 189 was already taken, it was slipped in between 189 & 190 along with some other works in a similar situation. That answers one of your questions. Now, there 8 movements in this work:

I. Andante maestoso - Allegro assai
II. Andante
III. Menuetto I
IV. Allegro
V. Menuetto II
VI. Andante
VII. Menuetto III
VIII. Prestissimo

Now, Mozart (Leopold, most likely) was always on the hunt for extra income. And he had this large work for which he had already received a substantial commission. The typical orchestral serenade consisted of movements which could be loosely described as being made up of parts of a sinfonia and parts of a concerto (that is, a featured soloist vs. orchestra). So they broke the thing up and sold the parts all over again as 2 different works.

A sinfonia:
I. Andante maestoso - Allegro assai
VI. Andante
VII. Menuetto III & Trio
VIII. Prestissimo

And a concerto (for violin in this case):
II. Andante
III. Menuetto I
IV. Allegro

If you would also like to hear the violin concerto, it is recorded separately on SONY/Seon by Jaap Schröder with the Mozart Ensemble-Amsterdam / Franz Brüggen. Or, you can take a copy of the entire serenade and play just the selected tracks to make you own version.

[Corlyss_D]

Gurn, you're making this up, right?

[Gurn Blanston]

Gurn, you're making this up, right?

No, but thanks for the tribute to my putative imagination.

All true, every word. I recommend you listen to the orchestral serenades. Every one of them contains a symphony and a concerto. Haffner Serenade has a lovely violin concerto (that's why they nearly always name the violin soloist on the recording). I believe (my memory isn't all it should be, I'm afraid) that "Posthorn" contains a 2 movement oboe concerto as the 2nd and 3rd movements. Parts to the "symphony" sections have been found in various places, demonstrating that just those parts were copied and, presumably, sold to someone who wanted to perform a symphony in their monastery, church or town. Ditto the concerti.

[John F]

I believe (my memory isn't all it should be, I'm afraid) that "Posthorn" contains a 2 movement oboe concerto as the 2nd and 3rd movements.

It's a symphonie concertante for the wind instruments, like the one he had composed a few years earlier in Paris. If the Posthorn Serenade was to be played by a Salzburg band, they must have had some pretty good wind players for Mozart to feature them like that.

[Jack Kelso]

My neat little scheme does not work for the even more prolific Bach, who in the first place wrote a greater proportion of masterpieces and in the second was not well served by those who assigned numbers when they catalogued his works.

Gotta hand it to ya, John---you never miss a beat when it comes to putting in a plug for old J.S.B.!

Best,
Jack

[John F]

in my opinion even the Haffner (number 35) is inferior to the serenade on which it is based

I just noticed that you said this. The serenade on which the Haffner Symphony is based has not survived, so if you have a recording of it, or even better if you have a score, your fame and fortune are secure. <grin>

The work known as the Haffner Serenade is not the basis for the symphony but completely different music. So I guess you mean that you prefer the earlier work to the later one. I don't, but chacun a son gout.

According to Mozart's letters, the later work for the Haffner family was to have had two minuets for a total of five movements, which would have made it a serenade rather than a symphony. It's not known what happened to the second minuet or if Mozart even composed it; he was very busy in Vienna and short of time just then (among other things, he was getting married and moving house), and may have wound up providing the Haffners with a 4-movement "serenade" like "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" instead. He did send along a march in D major, probably K.408 #2, as was usual with his serenades.

Since the score for the serenade/symphony as sent to Salzburg does not survive, it's impossible to know what changes Mozart made when he got it back a week or two later for use at one of his Vienna concerts. The autograph manuscript has a repeat sign for the first movement exposition that Mozart crossed out, and the orchestration includes clarinets which were available in Vienna but apparently not in Salzburg. But most likely he would have made few if any other changes.

He had composed the music only a week or two earlier, as I've said, and wrote his father on getting the score back from Salzburg how surprised and pleased he was with how good it was, as he had already completely forgotten it. So I'd guess that except for omitting one of the minuets, if indeed there ever were two minuets, the symphony is essentially the same as the serenade.

It would be unlike Mozart to have just discarded a completed and perfectly good piece of music that he had previously released for performance. He might have recycled the spare minuet in one of the sets of dances he composed at about that time. This would have required some rewriting, as the serenade (like the symphony) would have included a viola part while the dance orchestras of the time lacked violas. Which might explain why the original version of the minuet was not kept. But this is pure guesswork of course and there may never have been the "extra" minuet in the first place.