Beethoven's 9 Symphonies after Liszt for Piano Solo

[Lance]

The Turkish-born pianist IDIL BIRET (born in 1941) studied with Nadia Boulanger, Alfred Cortot and Wilhelm Kempff. That, in itself, is impressive. If you look at her discography, one will find it vast, indeed. The bulk of her recordings are now being issued or re-released by Naxos and is ever-growing depending on copyrights. She recorded initially for several other labels including Finnadar, EMI, Alliance, etc. No[Naxos 8.506027, six CDs.]

I haven't collected all of Idel Biret's recordings, but have about 20 of them, most recently the Liszt transcription of all of Beethoven's nine symphonies [Naxos 8.506027, six CDs]. Anyone taking on this repertoire would, of course, have to have the required technique and musical sensibilities to bring it all off, which Idil Biret does. These were recorded for EMI initially. It is interesting to hear how very quietly she plays in the softest passages, but can burst the piano into a huge sound when required. For me, the piano could be a little bit more forward ... it's just a bit too "airy" for me; one can almost sense the size of the studio or venue size.

There would be no sense to try to analyze each symphony what is offered by the pianist. My primary source for these transcriptions has always been those of Cyprien Katsaris appearing on Teldec [71619], which I rate at the very top of the list. Leslie Howard also recorded all the symphonies for Hyperion [66671/5] on five CDs. Harmonia Mundi also came out with all the symphonies [2931192] on seven CDs] with six different pianists, including Paul Badura-Skoda. And we cannot forget Glenn Gould's hair-raising performances of the Fifth and Sixth on Sony Classical.

Katsaris plays these symphonies with more abandon and risk-taking, and wins, and I prefer the sound of his piano, which is more forward and more orchestral in the climaxes. His are hair-raising performances. Biret's is more carefully "planned," with less risk-taking and yet perfectly executed. After all, Liszt is emulating a full orchestra with a single instrument with 88 keys. For Liszt, it succeeds as he represents Beethoven with all his own musical expertise. May I suggest you start hearing Idil Biret in the Symphony No. 6 {Pastoral} to draw some conclusions.

All said, I would still give the Idil Biret edition 4.75 stars!

There have been other recordings of individual symphonies, but I would like to hear what others have to say about those they have heard or have in their libraries.

[Holden Fourth]

Lance, I have the complete Katsaris which is really good. I never really rated Beethoven's 8th until I heard the Liszt transcription played by him. That said, like all cycles there is a weak point and it's the 5th in this case. That said, it's still a great performance but when you compare it to Glenn Gould's you can hear the defects. There are three absolute standouts in this cycle. There is the already mentioned 8th and a 4th to die for. Both are on the same CD. The 6th is absolutely gorgeous and Biret in comparison (which I'm listening to now) seems ponderous.

[premont]

My preference is Biret. I like her relatively slow pace which gives the rather weighty texture of Liszt's transcriptions time to unfold, and I like the poetry she finds particularly in the slow movements (a Kempff pupil after all). She is a nice contrast to Katsaris' demonstratively brilliant Toscanini-like perfection. I also like Howard's granite-like approach reminding of Klemperer. Compared to these above Scherbakov is more kind of run-of-the-mill. Does anybody know the new Alpers set:

https://www.amazon.de/Beethoven-Sinfoni ... sic&sr=1-1

[Holden Fourth]

My preference is Biret. I like her relatively slow pace which gives the rather weighty texture of Liszt's transcriptions time to unfold, and I like the poetry she finds particularly in the slow movements (a Kempff pupil after all). She is a nice contrast to Katsaris' demonstratively brilliant Toscanini-like perfection. I also like Howard's granite-like approach reminding of Klemperer. Compared to these above Scherbakov is more kind of run-of-the-mill. Does anybody know the new Alpers set:

https://www.amazon.de/Beethoven-Sinfoni ... sic&sr=1-1

Available on Qobuz and Spotify. Listening now.

[Rach3]

I have only a few, Scherbakov in 7,8,9, Badura Skoda in 5,Gould in 5 , of those mentioned, but do enjoy them all especially Scherbakov. I also have 5 live played by the late Joseph Villa at a NYC Bargemusic recital you should try to hear if it is at YT.

[barney]

My preference is Biret. I like her relatively slow pace which gives the rather weighty texture of Liszt's transcriptions time to unfold, and I like the poetry she finds particularly in the slow movements (a Kempff pupil after all). She is a nice contrast to Katsaris' demonstratively brilliant Toscanini-like perfection. I also like Howard's granite-like approach reminding of Klemperer. Compared to these above Scherbakov is more kind of run-of-the-mill. Does anybody know the new Alpers set:

https://www.amazon.de/Beethoven-Sinfoni ... sic&sr=1-1

These remarks are very helpful. Thanks.

[maestrob]

I've been listening to the Katsaris set for so long that it's tough to distance myself from it, especially as I model my own music-making to Toscanini's Beethoven, being that's the set I grew up with.

Given Biret's pedigree, I'm very tempted to study her approach as well now that my tastes have become more flexible and I'm open to a wider range of interpretations in my later years.

[premont]

I didn't intend to detract from Katsaris but only to say how I think he differs from Biret and that I prefer Biret. And no interpretation is defintive - such a concept doesn't exist IMO. On the contrary it is interesting and illuminating to know different interpretations, as they throw light on each other. So I am as many others a multiple collector. Let me add, that I have had much enjoyment from Katsaris' set also.

[maestrob]

My preference is Biret. I like her relatively slow pace which gives the rather weighty texture of Liszt's transcriptions time to unfold, and I like the poetry she finds particularly in the slow movements (a Kempff pupil after all). She is a nice contrast to Katsaris' demonstratively brilliant Toscanini-like perfection. I also like Howard's granite-like approach reminding of Klemperer. Compared to these above Scherbakov is more kind of run-of-the-mill. Does anybody know the new Alpers set:

https://www.amazon.de/Beethoven-Sinfoni ... sic&sr=1-1

Haven't heard about the Alpers set until now, and I'm curious, of course. I see that amazon also has his complete Ravel, but not much else. What do you know about him, if anything?

No harm done re: Kitsaris, of course.

[premont]

I know almost nothing about him. Heard by chance about his Beethoven / Liszt set, which I have not researched. He is supposed to play all of Beethoven's piano sonatas in public in the future and record them at some point. I probably can not resist the temptation to buy the symphony set.

Apart from the above-mentioned recordings of Beethoven / Liszt symphony sets, I know of three others, a Hungarian version with different pianists, which is OOP, and which I have not heard, a French recording also with different pianists, which I own and evaluate to be pretty good, and finally Yuri Martinov on alpha, playing nineteenth-century pianos, also apparently OOP.
I have owned one of Martinov's CDs (symf.2 and 7) and found it disappointing, especially the finale no. 7 was a mess - either he is technically weak or the older pianos are unsuitable for the job.

[Lance]

Premont ... great to see you here! More, please!!!

[Lance]

I have many recordings by Konstantin Scherbakov - love him as a pianist. I never acquired his Liszt/Beethoven nine symphonies, however, today, I ordered a copy of the complete set on Naxos. I am anxious to hear his take on them. Heaven only knows I don't NEED another set of these, but we collectors seem to have this "addiction." Obviously, we will never hear everybody, but in certain repertoire like this, why not?

[maestrob]

I have many recordings by Konstantin Scherbakov - love him as a pianist. I never acquired his Liszt/Beethoven nine symphonies, however, today, I ordered a copy of the complete set on Naxos. I am anxious to hear his take on them. Heaven only knows I don't NEED another set of these, but we collectors seem to have this "addiction." Obviously, we will never hear everybody, but in certain repertoire like this, why not?

Do let us know what you think of Scherbakov's Beethoven, Lance. I'm a great admirer of his Bach and also his Shostakovich Preludes & Fugues, which can be streamed on amazon:



His Liszt "Transcendental Etudes" and Godowski/Chopin both get five stars on Amazon, while his Beethoven gets very high marks as well. I may have to get at least the Liszt & Godowski. I've programmed his Liapunov for listening today.



I also found a used copy of Idil Biret's complete Beethoven for $44 yesterday and grabbed it before the seller could change his mind!

[premont]

I don't know if you are aware that Scherbakov recently released a complete Bethoven piano sonata set.

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=konstantyin+ ... nb_sb_noss

I have purchased it as a download from Presto Classical, but not listened to any of it yet. Being completist in many areas I have a long queue of CDs waiting to be listened to.

[premont]

Some days ago I planned to do a traversal of Scherbakov's recent Beethoven piano sonata set and report a little about it.

I began with the CD with the sonatas 30,31 and 32 and afterwards the CD with sonatas 23,24,25,26 and 27. His approach is very individual and very pianistic with much legato touch, great dynamic variation (ppp sometimes whispering but fff not banging), much care for the inflection of the notes and lots of rubato. He creates kind of improvised air, and he succeds in making it natural sounding and not over-thought and the music sounds coherent and integrated. In contrast to his expressive rubato he often omits end-of-movement rubato, making the end sound like a breath in the air. The last movement of sonata 23 eg. is throughout tense and agitated and ends rather abrubtly. In many slow movements he choose relatively fast tempi, but may still be lyrical. It's of course a matter of taste, but despite his strong individuality I didn't feel, that there was too much Scherbakov and too little Beethoven, on the contrary I think that this may well have been kind of the way Beethoven himself would have played, if he had had a modern piano at his disposal.

The recorded sound is full and present, though with a tendency to sharpness in the uppermost register. I can live with this.

In the same seance I had thought I could listen to sonatas 28 and 29 too, but his playing engaged me that much, that I was rather mentally tired after the two CDs mentioned above.

[barney]

Thanks for that Premont. Have you listened to other modern cycles, such as Paul Lewis or Igor Levit - Im wondering how you think they compare.I intended to buy the Levit cycle, for example, but haven't got round to it yet.

[Lance]

Given so many sets of complete Beethoven sonatas and symphonies, I have put a damper on getting any more of either. I will, of course, be hearing some of the more recent recordings with collector friends or online. I hesitate to advise how many complete sets I actually have and not to even mention countless individual sonata recordings.

As for the Beethoven/Liszt nine symphonies for solo piano, for me, Cyprien Katsaris seems to have it all with regard to these transcriptions and is my first pick. There is, however, much to enjoy in all the complete sets I have heard. I thought the Scherbakov was also very good. I was expecting more from Idil Biret but recognize her great art nonetheless. Hers is very different in many ways from that of Katsaris or Scherbakov. Just one man's opinion here.

[premont]

Thanks for that Premont. Have you listened to other modern cycles, such as Paul Lewis or Igor Levit - Im wondering how you think they compare.I intended to buy the Levit cycle, for example, but haven't got round to it yet.

Yes, I own both. I know Lewis' set well, whil I only have heard a third of Levit's set so far. Lewis strikes me to be in the Kempff vein, but he hasn't quite the authority and spell of Kempff. Levit is perfectionist and his approach a bit clinical, but he is good to have, when one wants to hear the sonatas in this way. It's tempting to compare him to Gulda (Amadeo set), and of these two I tend to prefer Levit.

Scherbakov is in quite another league. I think, one may describe him as a mixture of Barenboim and Annie Fischer.

[premont]

Given so many sets of complete Beethoven sonatas and symphonies, I have put a damper on getting any more of either. I will, of course, be hearing some of the more recent recordings with collector friends or online. I hesitate to advise how many complete sets I actually have and not to even mention countless individual sonata recordings.

For many years, Beethoven's piano sonatas have been music that has stimulated my latent completist inclinations beyond ability, so I have quite a few complete sets and also many more or less complete and many single recordings. Some years ago - having collected about 40 sets I thought, that now it's enough, but at the moment my LvB sonata acquisitions none-the-less run up to about 3 new sets a year, and this is more than before.

[maestrob]

Given so many sets of complete Beethoven sonatas and symphonies, I have put a damper on getting any more of either. I will, of course, be hearing some of the more recent recordings with collector friends or online. I hesitate to advise how many complete sets I actually have and not to even mention countless individual sonata recordings.

For many years, Beethoven's piano sonatas have been music that has stimulated my latent completist inclinations beyond ability, so I have quite a few complete sets and also many more or less complete and many single recordings. Some years ago - having collected about 40 sets I thought, that now it's enough, but at the moment my LvB sonata acquisitions none-the-less run up to about 3 new sets a year, and this is more than before.

Premont, you're a man after my own heart! Like Lance, I have acquired many sets of the Beethoven 32, but I'm sure not as many as either you or he have. I will definitely seek out Scherbakov on Spotify, as it's near time for me to hear a new artist in these.

Unfortunately, I acquired the Paul Lewis cycle when it was first issued. Perhaps he has redone some of the more awkward moments in a reissue, but I frankly found that, as he was learning them as he recorded them, there were some moments (don't remember all the details) that really needed more time to mature before they were inscribed on disc, so I haven't revisited that box. In fact, I'm not sure if I still have it. His concerto cycle is, by contrast, beautifully done in every aspect, and one of my top recommendations for that repertoire.

What I'm hoping is that he will rethink his approach to the cycle, much as Barenboim has done throughout his career, and redo them at some later date. As Barenboim improved with added depth and nuance as he matured, so, I believe, will Paul Lewis, who is a remarkably fine artist.

[barney]

I've just acquired Barenboim's fifth set of the 32 (recorded 2020), with a bonus of the Diabelli and half a dozen of the sonatas he recorded in 1958. It is quite fascinating, and very different from the performances of his youth.

[maestrob]

I've just acquired Barenboim's fifth set of the 32 (recorded 2020), with a bonus of the Diabelli and half a dozen of the sonatas he recorded in 1958. It is quite fascinating, and very different from the performances of his youth.

I'm sure it is!

I've posted here in the past that the EMI set, while Barenboim could play all the notes, was really quite shallow, having barely any nuance whatsoever. It was quite a feat for him to play the whole cycle at such a young age, of course, but even his DGG set was much more satisfying to my ears. I haven't heard his live Berlin cycle yet, but it's definitely on the agenda.

[barney]

My brief review in the Sydney Morning Herald

Daniel Barenboim, 78, is one of the more important post-war musicians, both as pianist and conductor, since giving his first concert aged seven. A Jewish citizen of Argentina, Spain, Israel and Palestine, he has been an indefatigable champion of peace in the Middle East. He has already recorded the 32 Beethoven sonatas four times, and now – in a 13-CD set also including the Diabelli variations and six of the sonatas he recorded in 1958 – he essays a fifth and surely final collection. This lockdown bonus project provides a view from maturity, with less passion but perhaps more philosophical depth. Many critics have observed that his fingers are no longer as fleet as in his earlier recordings, and he might not choose this set as his legacy recording of the sonatas, but its special treasure is the slow movements – the distilled wisdom of more than seven decades of playing Beethoven. There is a breadth and profundity in many of them that many pianists cannot conceive, a spaciousness and tenderness that is deeply moving. The sonatas he played as a 16-year-old with all youth’s fire make a fascinating contrast, but the sound quality is naturally inferior.