Did Christian Thielemann Attack Kirill Petrenko as a Jew?

[Modernistfan]

According to a poster on Norman Lebrecht's "Slipped Disc," Thielemann made comments to the effect that the Berlin Philharmonic only hired Kirill Petrenko as their new music director because he was a Jew, as repentance for the Holocaust. I have not seen this elsewhere, although, based on his previous comments with respect to Barenboim, I would not be shocked by this. Does anyone have any further information regarding this? (Thielemann had just had his contract with the Sächsische Staatskapelle Dresden terminated as of 2024.)

[Rach3]

What were his comments about Barenboim ? TIA.

[Modernistfan]

His comments about Barenboim, when there had been suggestions to merge some of the Berlin opera houses and thereby reduce Barenboim's role, were: "Jetzt hat die Juderei in Berlin ein Ende," which roughly translates as "now the Jewish mess in Berlin is coming to an end." It is pretty clear that he said it, despite his denials.

This is a shame, as he can be a very good conductor of the Austro-German repertoire and does not follow the historically informed performance line; as to that, we agree for most of this repertoire. I want my traditional Teutonic weight in Beethoven, not a wimpy period instrument performance!!

[maestrob]

What were his comments about Barenboim ? TIA.

COMMENT: TMK, the origins of the feud between Barenboim & Thielemann are well-reported in the article below from 2000:

Berlin Operas Are Feuding, With Anti-Semitic Overtones

By Roger Cohen
Oct. 21, 2000

Berlin's opera world is often turbulent, riven by East-West rivalries of cold-war intensity. But apparently anti-Semitic comments about Daniel Barenboim, the artistic director of the Staatsoper, have created a storm unusual even by the standards of this city.

Mr. Barenboim, 57, who has been at the former East Berlin's magnificent Staatsoper for the past eight years, is involved in a tense struggle with the city authorities that provide much of his financing over plans to cut costs by merging his house with the far less venerable Deutsche Oper in the West.

The battle pits Mr. Barenboim, who is also the music director of the Chicago Symphony and a dark horse candidate to succeed Kurt Masur at the New York Philharmonic, against many people. Not the least of them is the rising star of German music, Christian Thielemann, the 41-year-old musical director of the Deutsche Oper, whose acclaimed debut at Bayreuth this year with ''Die Meistersinger'' has reinforced his standing.

Enter Klaus Landowsky, a leading Berlin politician from the Christian Democratic party, to sum up the situation in these terms to the Berliner Morgenpost: ''On the one hand, you have the young von Karajan in Thielemann, on the other you have the Jew Barenboim.''

Uproar. Mr. Barenboim said that within hours of the statement's appearance on Thursday in the Berlin daily, the Christian Democratic mayor of Berlin, Eberhard Diepgen, had called to reassure him that Mr. Landowsky's statement was in fact meant as a compliment underscoring the cultural diversity of the ''new Berlin.''

That did not wash. Mr. Barenboim issued a statement saying that he was ''astonished'' to discover that ''my Jewishness could have anything to do with my position at the Staatsoper or with my music.'' Whether Mr. Landowsky's comment was meant as a compliment or an insult, he added, ''It frightens me equally.''


In an interview, Mr. Barenboim said that he had explained to the mayor, Mr. Diepgen, that ''however you read the remark, it is offensive.'' He added, ''I find this sort of anti-Semitism so incredible, I do not want to believe it.''

Mr. Landowsky's statement seemed particularly incendiary because the young Herbert von Karajan joined the Nazi Party in 1933 -- a decision he never openly disavowed -- before going on to his illustrious years at the Berlin Philarmonic. To juxtapose Mr. Barenboim, the Jew, with Mr. Thielemann, the ''young von Karajan,'' therefore seemed unusually provocative.

The remark also came just when a series of attacks on synagogues in France and Germany in recent weeks and increasingly assertive criticism of what many people here now call the ''Holocaust industry'' had created a tense climate.

The assumption that it was right for Germany to try to rebuild its Jewish community has been questioned. Paul Spiegel, the leader of the largest association of German Jews, said this week he doubted that ''Germany has drawn the right lessons from its past.'' In a telephone interview, Mr. Landowsky said that the last thing he wanted was to insult Mr. Barenboim. What he wanted to do, he said, was to contrast ''Mr. Thielemann, on the one side, with the important Jewish cultural element represented by Mr. Barenboim on the other side.''

He added that the great tragedy of German culture in this century had been Hitler's destruction of the Jewish community and that the presence in Berlin of people like Mr. Barenboim and the director of the Jewish museum, Michael Blumenthal, was absolutely critical to the city. ''We are very proud of this presence,'' he said.

How long Mr. Barenboim will remain is in doubt. His current contract expires in 2002 and he has made clear that if the merger plan proposed by Berlin's top cultural official, Christoph Stolzl, is approved, he will leave then.

Given the wide popularity of the turbocharged Mr. Barenboim, this would be a blow to Berlin, which sees culture as central to its ambitious plans to become a ''Weltstadt'' -- a world-class metropolis.

''What is being proposed is the ruin of two houses to save $5 million out of a cultural budget of several hundred million dollars,'' Mr. Barenboim said. ''It makes no artistic or financial sense.''

He continued: ''The Staatsoper is 250 years old, its Staatskapelle orchestra is the second-oldest in the world, while the Deutsche Oper is a 20th-century creation. But instead of deciding priorities and saying one opera house, the Staatsoper, represents Germany and Berlin and must be supported, we have a muddled attempt to cement the now unaffordable cultural proliferation of the years of the Berlin Wall.''

Mr. Stolzl has argued that his plan makes sense, providing Berlin with an arrangement similar to that in Paris, where the Opera National consists of two houses -- the Opera Bastille and the Palais Garnier. It would save money, he said, while allowing the Deutsche Oper to concentrate on a Romantic repertory and the Staatsoper on classical performances.

But many people are skeptical that the rivalry of the two houses could be overcome in a merger, and one thing is already clear: Mr. Barenboim would depart. This appears to have whetted the appetite of Mr. Thielemann, who had announced that he would leave the Deutsche Oper soon but has now made clear that he would be available to head a merged Berlin Opera.

It was against the background of this daggers-drawn maneuvering that the first references to Mr. Barenboim's Jewishness were reported earlier this week.

In an impassioned letter to the Frankfurter Allgemeine, Germany's most respected newspaper, Ulrich Roloff-Momin, a former top Berlin cultural official, urged Mr. Barenboim to stay and declared that the campaign against him was being organized partly by anti-Semites.

''Is it not really unbearable that even responsible politicians always emphasize the Jew Barenboim rather than the artist of world acclaim?'' he wrote. ''And is anti-Semitism not quite open when one thinks of a remark by a leading Berliner, heard by many witnesses but passed on only secretly: 'Now the Jewish mess in Berlin is coming to an end.' ''

This remark was widely attributed to Mr. Thielemann. But he denied having said it, calling such accusations ''ridiculous'' and suggesting they had been orchestrated to damage his reputation at a tense time. ''It is very strange that something like this comes up now,'' he said.

Musicians from the two opera houses said today in a statement that they had never heard such a remark from Mr. Thielemann.

But Mr. Barenboim seemed unconvinced. He said, ''Mr. Thielemann is a very good conductor and I have a high regard for his musicianship.'' Then, referring to the famously bracing Berlin ''Luft,'' he added, ''But it seems that the Berlin air is so good, it even affects people's memories.''

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/21/arts ... tones.html

[maestrob]

And here's a link to an interview with Thielemann a year later where he denies having said the quotes that he's being attacked for:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/200 ... sfeatures1

[barney]

Thanks for that research, Brian - fascinating. Anti-Semitism in Europe is a little like racism in the US, a problem whose cloven hoof keeps peeping out from under the skirts however hard people try to fix it. (Of course racism is a problem everywhere, but Americans are particularly sensitive about it given their history.)

[THEHORN]

Anything from Norman Lebrecht must be taken with a grain of salt . . . . . he's the Rush Limbaugh of classical music .

[barney]

Anything from Norman Lebrecht must be taken with a grain of salt . . . . . he's the Rush Limbaugh of classical music .

JohnF certainly agreed with you. I find him very entertaining, and sometimes (perhaps) well informed, but the cognoscenti's consensus is with you.