Bad Day (Again) For Pres

[Ted]

The Times broke the NSA Story

The President was clearly irritated with Jim Lehrer and refused to discuss the reported monitoring of telecommunications by the National Security Agency

"There is no doubt that this is inappropriate," declared Republican Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He promised hearings early next year.


Then there’s the Patriot Act…no small defeat for the White House, not in the scheme of political perceptions anyway
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20051216/D8EHJ6M81.html

As for Iraq
Of the three Muslim Countries (Turkey, Morocco Tunisia) that are democracies, all three are secular.
Islamic law is supreme in the new Iraqi Constitution…
That and Democracy are like the boa constrictor and the mongoose
I do think it is a great thing that the average Iraqi is being given a chance to have a voice…a real choice in a real election…. What that will mean in the grand scheme of an Islamic driven civil war is up for grabs

[Corlyss_D]

The Times broke the NSA Story

At least they published the Iraqi election on the front page above the fold. I want to know who leaked the story.

You'll like this, Ted: Jim McTague of Barrons said that the Stock Exchange is extremely worried about impeachment.

As for Iraq
Of the three Muslim Countries (Turkey, Morocco Tunisia) that are democracies, all three are secular.

The allegation has been that Muslims are incapable.

Islamic law is supreme in the new Iraqi Constitution…

Quote please. I've heard it all along as "a factror" not "supreme." We would never have gone a long with that wording.

What that will mean in the grand scheme of an Islamic driven civil war is up for grabs

Right. We'll see.

[Ted]

I want to know who leaked the story.

And you shall

http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

[Ted]

Quote please. I've heard it all along as "a factror" not "supreme." We would never have gone a long with that wording.

(My use of Supreme may have been a tad overstated)

Article 7.

A) Islam is the official religion of the State and is to be considered a source of legislation. No law that contradicts the universally agreed tenets of Islam, the principles of democracy, or the rights cited in Chapter Two of this Law may be enacted

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/government/TAL.html

[Ted]

You'll like this, Ted: Jim McTague of Barrons said that the Stock Exchange is extremely worried about impeachment.

Really..what did the Stock Exchange do?

Seriously, unless a President can be impeached for a lack of intellectual acuity, I’d say Bush is safe

[Barry]

Taken from an AP story:

<<<In a broad defense of the program put forward hours later, however, a senior intelligence official told The Associated Press that the eavesdropping was narrowly designed to go after possible terrorist threats in the United States.

The official said that, since October 2001, the program has been renewed more than three dozen times. Each time, the White House counsel and the attorney general certified the lawfulness of the program, the official said. Bush then signed the authorizations.

During the reviews, government officials have also provided a fresh assessment of the terrorist threat, showing that there is a catastrophic risk to the country or government, the official said.

"Only if those conditions apply do we even begin to think about this," he said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the classified nature of the intelligence operation.

"The president has authorized NSA to fully use its resources — let me underscore this now — consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution to defend the United States and its citizens," the official said, adding that congressional leaders have also been briefed more than a dozen times.>>>

Under those circumstances, I would certainly hope the President would take the actions that he did. We're not talking about doing this to thousands of people. These appear to have been isolated incidents with serious national security consequences.

[Corlyss_D]

Really..what did the Stock Exchange do?

It gets nervous. McTague's phrase for it was "the street climbs a wall of worry."

I’d say Bush is safe

Ordinarily I would too, but this bunch of Keystone Kops that have been in charge of the administration's message since January has been deaf, dumb, and blind. The lack of leadership from the WH and in Congress has left Republican congressmembers rudderless and vulnerable to the Democratic Spin Machine. I'm holding my breath against the lilly-livered in Congress falling for a Democratic demand to have set up an impeachment investigation, you know, to show what reasonable guys they are.

[Corlyss_D]

Under those circumstances, I would certainly hope the President would take the actions that he did. We're not talking about doing this to thousands of people. These appear to have been isolated incidents with serious national security consequences.

Thanks, Barry. I agree. I heard on the news that it was a grand total of 13 occasions that Bush authorized these taps. The ACLU of course is in full-throated cry. 13. The opposition has lost all sense of proportion.

[Ted]

I'm holding my breath against the lilly-livered in Congress falling for a Democratic demand to have set up an impeachment investigation, you know, to show what reasonable guys they are.

Well I definitely think that would be a hoot, though I can’t see it happening
Anyway, the irony is, in the immediate wake of 911 Bush would have a somewhat extraordinary set of circumstances to hang his defense on

[operafan]

I want to know who leaked the story.

And you shall

http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

Ironic that they didn't do it for John Dean's book 'Worse than Watergate' which was published in 2003.

[Ralph]

I want to know who leaked the story.

And you shall

http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

*****

It was Jenna Bush.

[Ralph]

You'll like this, Ted: Jim McTague of Barrons said that the Stock Exchange is extremely worried about impeachment.

Really..what did the Stock Exchange do?

Seriously, unless a President can be impeached for a lack of intellectual acuity, I’d say Bush is safe

*****Talk of impeachment is nonsense.

[operafan]

From the NY Times, the number of people tapped domestically varied.

"While many details about the program remain secret, officials familiar with it say the N.S.A. eavesdrops without warrants on up to 500 people in the United States at any given time. The list changes as some names are added and others dropped, so the number monitored in this country may have reached into the thousands since the program began, several officials said. Overseas, about 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time, according to those officials."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/polit ... _popular_5

[Donald Isler]

I'm waiting for a "Watergate moment", ie. evidence that they tapped phones of political enemies. That would change the face of things. Do I know that they did this? No. Would it surprise me if they had? Not at all.

[Barry]

I'm waiting for a "Watergate moment", ie. evidence that they tapped phones of political enemies. That would change the face of things. Do I know that they did this? No. Would it surprise me if they had? Not at all.

Well it would surprise me. I just don't see even a remote analogy between a president who was a paranoid lunatic worried about enemies who posed no political threat to him and one who is dealing with serious threats to our national security while we're at war.

If by some miracle it turns out I'm wrong and you're right, I'll change my tune and say go forward with impeachment proceedings. But I'd be stunned if such evidence is uncovered.

As I said in my first post on this thread, out of close to 300 million Americans, we have anywhere from a dozen to a few hundred, depending on whose total you believe, who were subjected to this. I don't think their names were picked out of a hat. I'd be extremely surprised if there wasn't good reason to believe any of these people or those they had contacts with weren't somehow involved in activities related to national security and the war on terror.

I'm reminded of a story I read the other day that related to the treatment of prisoners issue. An American officer has been kicked out of the military (I believe that's what happened to him.....I know he was reprimanded) because he fired his gun near a prisoner in an effort to get him to divulge information about an ambush of American soldiers. The tactic worked. The prisoner wouldn't talk until he was scared into doing so (he wasn't physically harmed; only scared). He then talked and American lives were saved. Now that the officer has been reprimanded for taking that action, it's likely that soldiers in similar situations in the future will hesitate to use such tactics, probably resulting in the the loss of American lives.

We're not playing tag here. We're at war with a brutal enemy. Some people want to hold our government and military to standards that are too high for war time IMO.

[Werner]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

[Corlyss_D]

I want to know who leaked the story.

And you shall

http://drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm

Thanks. But I meant who told Risen. As in:

Nearly a dozen current and former officials, who were granted anonymity because of the classified nature of the program, discussed it with reporters for The New York Times because of their concerns about the operation's legality and oversight. - NYT story.

So now we have group leaking by "a roving commission to do good"? Even to the extent of leaking classified information - again! I want these people caught and prosecuted. I want Risen in jail if he won't reveal his sources. These leakers are a national security risk and it appears they are violating laws concerning the security of classified information. I have no confidence that they do it for any other reason than to discredit Bush.

[Corlyss_D]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

[Corlyss_D]

Thanks, O, for the revival of that delicious signature. I've got it now.

[Corlyss_D]

I'm waiting for a "Watergate moment", ie. evidence that they tapped phones of political enemies. That would change the face of things. Do I know that they did this? No. Would it surprise me if they had? Not at all.

Have you seen anything that remotely hints at this in the Bush administration? I mean honestly now, Donald, not what you might like to say because you detest this presidence. This group in the White House don't even know how to discipline Republicans who stray, i.e., John McCain.

[Ralph]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

*****

And very few know about the plight of non-citizen Italians.

[Donald Isler]

I should be concerned because the bums currently running the country don't "discipline" a HERO like McCain??!! What a laugh! All of these people are pygmies next to McCain. Had he been the presidential candidate instead of W. I might have conceivably (for the first time) voted for a Republican for president.

I made my previous comments based on my estimation of the character of the people running this administration. You don't think they'd do such a thing. I think it's quite possible. We'll see who's right!

[Ted]

Bush Acknowledges Approving Eavesdropping

Appearing angry at times (Gotta Love that)

By JENNIFER LOVEN
Associated Press Writer
Dec 17 10:40 AM US/Eastern

WASHINGTON - President Bush said Saturday he personally has authorized a secret eavesdropping program in the U.S. more than 30 times since the Sept. 11 attacks and he lashed out at those involved in publicly revealing the program. "This is a highly classified program that is crucial to our national security," he said in a radio address delivered live from the White House's Roosevelt Room.

"This authorization is a vital tool in our war against the terrorists. It is critical to saving American lives. The American people expect me to do everything in my power, under our laws and Constitution, to protect them and their civil liberties and that is exactly what I will continue to do as long as I am president of the United States," Bush said.

Angry members of Congress have demanded an explanation of the program, first revealed in Friday's New York Times and whether the monitoring by the National Security Agency violates civil liberties.

Defending the program, Bush said in his address that it is used only to intercept the international communications of people inside the United States who have been determined to have "a clear link" to al- Qaida or related terrorist organizations.

He said the program is reviewed every 45 days, using fresh threat assessments, legal reviews by the Justice Department, White House counsel and others, and information from previous activities under the program.

Without identifying specific lawmakers, Bush said congressional leaders have been briefed more than a dozen times on the program's activities.

The president also said the intelligence officials involved in the monitoring receive extensive training to make sure civil liberties are not violated.

Appearing angry at times during his eight-minute address, Bush left no doubt that he will continue authorizing the program.

"I intend to do so for as long as our nation faces a continuing threat from al-Qaida and related groups," he said.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/12/17/D8EI32N00.html

[pizza]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

*****

And very few know about the plight of non-citizen Italians.

Not to mention the summary dispatch of Nazi concentration camp guards on the spot by incensed army personnel and target practice taken on Japanese POWs at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

[Barry]

Bush Acknowledges Approving Eavesdropping

Appearing angry at times (Gotta Love that)

I sure as hell don't blame him for being pissed that this was leaked (for the reason he gave).

[operafan]

*****Talk of impeachment is nonsense.

Of course, consider what we'd get; Cheney for President.

[Ralph]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

*****

And very few know about the plight of non-citizen Italians.

Not to mention the summary dispatch of Nazi concentration camp guards on the spot by incensed army personnel and target practice taken on Japanese POWs at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

*****

Japanese soldiers and sailors were commonly shot when in the sea. That's no secret. Neither is the consensus of most historians that the Pacific War had enormous racial elements on both sides.

Once removed from the front lies Japanese POWs were generally well treated and a number became employees of American companies in postwar Japan.

[jbuck919]

Interesting that I just got my first politically motivated pop-up. It showed Bush with his best Johnny Carson smile and the message: Wann wird Bush den Krieg beenden? (When will Bush end the war?)

(My computer knows it is in Germany somehow. I never told it. I wish it would give me umlauted vowels without having to go into Microsoft Word. )

[Teresa B]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

*****

And very few know about the plight of non-citizen Italians.

Not to mention the summary dispatch of Nazi concentration camp guards on the spot by incensed army personnel and target practice taken on Japanese POWs at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Um...And all this is good? I don't see how past horrors justify current reprises.

Teresa

[Alban Berg]

Interesting that I just got my first politically motivated pop-up. It showed Bush with his best Johnny Carson smile and the message: Wann wird Bush den Krieg beenden? (When will Bush end the war?)

(My computer knows it is in Germany somehow. I never told it. I wish it would give me umlauted vowels without having to go into Microsoft Word. )

You mean, like these that my keyboard produced 50 miles east of New York City while posting this reply?

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Durch des Himmels prächt'gen Plan.
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.

[pizza]

This is not our first wartime experience. As far as I can tell,we have succded in past wars (major wars) without lowering our standards of treatment to those advocated by some of our current officeholders.

You must be kidding, Werner, or else you have a short memory. The Japanese Americans were tossed into camps and the Germans were under close surveillance.

*****

And very few know about the plight of non-citizen Italians.

Not to mention the summary dispatch of Nazi concentration camp guards on the spot by incensed army personnel and target practice taken on Japanese POWs at Iwo Jima and Okinawa.

Um...And all this is good? I don't see how past horrors justify current reprises.

Teresa

Who said they do?

[Teresa B]

Hmm, I guess no one actually did. But I got the whiff that we shouldn't single out our current group of government stumblebums because they are only repeating the bad things previous administrations have done before.

Teresa

[jbuck919]

Interesting that I just got my first politically motivated pop-up. It showed Bush with his best Johnny Carson smile and the message: Wann wird Bush den Krieg beenden? (When will Bush end the war?)

(My computer knows it is in Germany somehow. I never told it. I wish it would give me umlauted vowels without having to go into Microsoft Word. )

You mean, like these that my keyboard produced 50 miles east of New York City while posting this reply?

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Alle Menschen werden Brüder,
Durch des Himmels prächt'gen Plan.
Über Sternen muß er wohnen.

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean. New York is a seaport, in case you hadn't heard.

I have tried with the alt number sequence but can't get it to work on my computer. Obviously (look at my signature) I can deal with alternate characters but I prefer to draft online because I type as fast as I think. It drives me crazy to be living in Germany and be perhaps the third most proficient German speaker here and not be able to do this efficiently on the computer I brought with me from the States.

[Ted]

JBuck Wrote:

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean.

John
You really do have to look at a map---once you do, you will no doubt see that Long Island is indeed East of New York City…
The Midtown tunnel which runs under the East River connects Manhattan wit the LI Expressway which runs East and West

[jbuck919]

JBuck Wrote:

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean.

John
You really do have to look at a map---once you do, you will no doubt see that Long Island is indeed East of New York City…
The Midtown tunnel which runs under the East River connects Manhattan wit the LI Expressway which runs East and West

Oh good grief I know that. Does Suffolk County really extend literally fifty miles east of the boroughs? And if the island is really that "long," what are the chances that Alban Berg just happens to be exactly there?

[Alban Berg]

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean. New York is a seaport, in case you hadn't heard.

http://thy.phy.bnl.gov/www/riken/long_island.gif

I have tried with the alt number sequence but can't get it to work on my computer. Obviously (look at my signature) I can deal with alternate characters but I prefer to draft online because I type as fast as I think. It drives me crazy to be living in Germany and be perhaps the third most proficient German speaker here and not be able to do this efficiently on the computer I brought with me from the States.

Then perhaps your understanding of computers is no better than your understanding of New York geography. Are you certain you're using the ALT number method correctly? Is the NUM LOCK key on? Are you using the horizontal numbers above the keyboard or (as you must) the numeric keypad on the right? Are you typing ALT and then a zero before the 3-digit string for the alternate characters?

- Alban (gurgle, gurgle, typing from the bottom of the ocean)

[Alban Berg]

JBuck Wrote:

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean.

John
You really do have to look at a map---once you do, you will no doubt see that Long Island is indeed East of New York City…
The Midtown tunnel which runs under the East River connects Manhattan wit the LI Expressway which runs East and West

Oh good grief I know that. Does Suffolk County really extend literally fifty miles east of the boroughs?

The geographical entity called Long Island is c. 120 miles long and consists of four counties: Kings (Brooklyn) and Queens, which are politically part of New York City, Nassau, and Suffolk. From Manhattan, one can access the island from the Midtown Tunnel, Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel, and numerous bridges, primarily the Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Williamsburgh (connecting Manhattan to Brooklyn), and the 59th Street and Triboro (connecting Manhattan to Queens).

[jbuck919]

Fifty miles east of New York City is somwhere over the Atlantic Ocean. New York is a seaport, in case you hadn't heard.

http://thy.phy.bnl.gov/www/riken/long_island.gif

I have tried with the alt number sequence but can't get it to work on my computer. Obviously (look at my signature) I can deal with alternate characters but I prefer to draft online because I type as fast as I think. It drives me crazy to be living in Germany and be perhaps the third most proficient German speaker here and not be able to do this efficiently on the computer I brought with me from the States.

Then perhaps your understanding of computers is no better than your understanding of New York geography. Are you certain you're using the ALT number method correctly? Is the NUM LOCK key on? Are you using the horizontal numbers above the keyboard or (as you must) the numeric keypad on the right? Are you typing ALT and then a zero before the 3-digit string for the alternate characters?

- Alban (gurgle, gurgle, typing from the bottom of the ocean)

I'm working on it. By "it" I mean both the damn keypad stuff and my New York geography on which I generally pride myself (I do rather permanently live there, don't you know). Where the hell are you anyway, to be so far off east on Long Island?

[Alban Berg]

And if the island is really that "long," what are the chances that Alban Berg just happens to be exactly there?

I don't know what the chances are, but the physical entity that has adopted the nom-de-poste Alban Berg for the purposes of writing on this forum lives close to the junction of the Sagtikos and Southern Parkways, as indicated on the map referenced in an earlier post. And that's all Alban cares to reveal, unless other pseudonymous individuals (such as "pepperoni") are more forthcoming with their personal information.

[Ted]

Unless other pseudonymous individuals (such as "pepperoni") are more forthcoming with their personal information.

Well Larry
While I was born in Brooklyn which we all know is the western tip of LI, I grew up in Rockville Centre which is a few miles north of Long Beach.
RVC is now I’m told one of the Restaurant Hot Spots in Nassau County

We also had the distinction during the famous 1967 East Coast blackout of being the only Village that had power since RVC was one of the first municipalities in the state to generate its own electricity

[jbuck919]

Unless other pseudonymous individuals (such as "pepperoni") are more forthcoming with their personal information.

Well Larry
While I was born in Brooklyn which we all know is the western tip of LI, I grew up in Rockville Centre which is a few miles north of Long Beach.
RVC is now I’m told one of the Restaurant Hot Spots in Nassau County

We also had the distinction during the famous 1967 East Coast blackout of being the only Village that had power since RVC was one of the first municipalities in the state to generate its own electricity

My mother lived in Rockville Center as a young woman (this was before even WW II). She was invited to be the domestic of a family that vacationed in Stony Creek (at a dude ranch that still exhists).

Alban Berg evidently lives in North Patchogue. It is amazing how obscure these Long island Towns are; quite as far out as upstate if not more so.

[Alban Berg]

Alban Berg evidently lives in North Patchogue.

Not precisely but fairly close. How are you coming along with those umlauts?

[Corlyss_D]

*****Talk of impeachment is nonsense.

Of course, consider what we'd get; Cheney for President.

I'd rather have him than Bush.

[Corlyss_D]

Um...And all this is good? I don't see how past horrors justify current reprises.

The way I look at it is, this is war, not a case of police ganging up on Rodney King. There is a very vocal strain of political activists, Biden and McCain included, who want to treat soldiers in the field like they are policemen in South Central LA and who are venting their spleen on fellow Americans. That's not the case and it's insane to 1) unilaterally apply the rules of war to people who do not fit the classic definition of combatants in a war; 2) grant the protections of citizenship to non-citizens who are trying to kill us (another screwed up decision of the Warren court); and 3) treat American soldiers as though they were domestic police.

[Corlyss_D]

All of these people are pygmies next to McCain. Had he been the presidential candidate instead of W. I might have conceivably (for the first time) voted for a Republican for president.

Please! Save your vote! It only encourages him. McCain is no more a Republican than John Kerry is. The reasons he appeals to you is the reasons he's not a Republican.

I made my previous comments based on my estimation of the character of the people running this administration.

Me too. Bush don't care that much about his "enemies," which I think makes them even crazier. Besides, it should be obvious to everyone that a Bush enemies list is far too large for any action against them to be feasible.

[Corlyss_D]

Hmm, I guess no one actually did. But I got the whiff that we shouldn't single out our current group of government stumblebums because they are only repeating the bad things previous administrations have done before. Teresa

The whiff I think was present was that . . . . see my signature

[Ted]

A refreshing and edifying oratory by the Pres:
"We won’t stop until the “mission” is completed
And those who are critical are defeatists"
Now I get it

[Corlyss_D]

Now I get it

Phew! At last! I was beginning to think you never would!

[Werner]

Congratulation on the new signature, Corlyss. Dare we now hope for a course correction?

[jbuck919]

Alban Berg evidently lives in North Patchogue.

Not precisely but fairly close. How are you coming along with those umlauts?

Well, I've succeeded in turning my screen blue, half size, and upside down.

Seriously, can you give me the basic codes again? Alt what? I promise I'll print out the list and never, never bug anybody about this again.

Blurble blurble,

John